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reading this article i wonder.... if this is why some of us do not have a good results when taking Probiotics
if our T-cells attack the contents of the probiotics when we ingest them (and hence cause D)
Most likely, Hand said, the immune system is indirectly responsible for spreading the good gut bacteria around. A strong immune response can damage body cells, including the gut cells that usually keep beneficial bacteria on the inside of the intestines.
Once the parasite infection is over, the researchers found, the immune system locks in a memory of the invaders it fought in memory T cells. These cells are able to mount a fast immune response if they encounter the same pathogens for a second or third time.
Unfortunately, the T cells remember the beneficial gut bacteria as well as the parasite, the researchers report online today (Aug. 23) in the journal Science. This memory seems to last as long as the mouse lives, Hand said.
The finding suggests a possible link to Crohn's disease, a chronic inflammation of the gastrointestinal tract usually centered in the intestines. Symptoms range from abdominal cramps to constipation to diarrhea. The exact cause is unknown, but Crohn's is an autoimmune disease, meaning that the immune system begins attacking the body.
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
I, for one, TOTALLY buy into this theory, and have for a long time. At least in my case, it makes perfect sense. Multiple GI infections growing up and immediately preceeding IBS and LC symptoms -- then certain antibiotics completely stopping my symptoms -- I think the antibiotics kill off the bacteria my body is attacking (temporarily). Then my violent reaction to a multi-strain probiotic -- surely one of these "beneficial" bacteria is one my body is attacking. Or maybe I was permanently colonized by a bad bacteria during a GI infection, and it shares similar properties with a good bacteria, and my body can't tell them apart? MC is forever in this case, but all we can hope to do is crowd out this problem bacteria with other good ones, and presumably eat the types of foods that will feed our beneficial bacteria. In part that's why I wonder if a gluten and grain-free diet is helpful -- because it stops feeding the particular bacteria that thrive on it.
maybe part of the success to MC management (or wellness in general if people have multiple immune conditions ) is to calm the immune system, to stop it attacking everything.
then it will be easy to get the digestion system working properly, with the right balance of bacteria, acid etc
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
I tend to agree, it does seem that as a few of us have found out imuran which slows the immune system down does provide significant relief. I believe Nancy using Imuran in combination with NAET acupuncture is able to eat a lot of the foods she could not before. I am finding about the same thing. I am still GF,SF and DF but can now eat salads and raw fruits most of the time.
Here is another question, can the immune system be 'taught' not to attack the gut bacteria etc...?
The next question is can the immune system be calmed down through more natural means such as specifically combined nutritional supplements and with things like meditation?
Joe wrote:Here is another question, can the immune system be 'taught' not to attack the gut bacteria etc...?
I don't know how to answer that, because I'm not convinced it actually happens (to beneficial gut bacteria), nor that it's the cause of IBDs.
Joe wrote:The next question is can the immune system be calmed down through more natural means such as specifically combined nutritional supplements and with things like meditation?
IMO, yes.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Recent stool test found Charlot-Leydon crystals which is considered rare and indicates an allergic response of some sort. Doc recommended histamine enzyme supplent and NAET therapy. Just scheduled the NAET for next week, fingers crossed.
Also of interest, four months ago I had zero acidophilus in my stool culture. After four months of acidophilus pills, acidophilus powder on my food, homemade yogurt, whey, water kefir, sauerkraut, pickles I still had zero acidophilus. One of doc's theories was that the overactive immune response was recognizing acidophilus as an invader and was attacking it as it came in. Other possible theory involved bad bacteria/yeast populating available real estate and changing pH to more alkaline which acidophilus doesn't like. He feels the crystals in the stool are a strong sign to focus on the allergy/immune response with the therapies listed above before trying anything else.
The reason why probiotics do not result in a stable gut colony is because in order for gut bacteria to be able to "attach", they must have originally developed in a human gut. All laboratory-produced probiotic bacteria are doomed to be transients, as far as the gut is concerned.
This is the reason why "C-section" babies are so prone to lifelong immune system issues — by being diverted from a normal trip down the birth canal, they are not allowed to inspire the mother's native bacteria, so their immune system does not get properly "kick-started" with bacteria that are qualified to attach to their own gut.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
I certainly hope it works, and please let us know how it turns out.
The failure of fecal transplants to control MC symptoms for other members who have tried it, is one of the reasons why I remain skeptical. The problem is, if the immune system actually does target those (beneficial) species of bacteria, then transplanting the same species from someone else's gut is not going to resolve the problem. Or, looking at it from an alternative viewpoint, if it works, then that would constitute proof that the immune system was not attacking those species after all (since it didn't attack the transplants).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Good thoughts on the immune response to beneficial bacteria Tex. I will certainly keep the group posted on anytying I learn. Some MC cases (like those induced by antibiotics usage) likely have gut dysbiosis as a major factor in my condtion; hence the focus on restoring normal gut flora. NAET therapy and some antihistamine/histamine enzyme supplementation to possibly calm the immune response down before beginning the transplants may be beneficial in case the immune response is a factor as proposed in this thread.
That article posted by Tex is the best source of info for this purpose. I started with Dr. Borody's review of literature which found about 15 published articles addressing fecal microbiota transplantation and found my way to about four that I printed and keep as references. Research seems to say that the treatment will likely be effective when there is a pathogen/bacteria/virus, etc. causing the issue. For MC, UC, crohn's, etc. where there may or may not be a pathogen as a root cause, the treatment is certainly less effective, maybe more like 50%. My C Diff tests keep coming back negative but I still haven't given up on the thought that it might be the cause.
KD, we also have been considering FMT (fecal transplants) for some time. A relative saw Dr. Khorut's article in Mens Health about the therapy and brought it to our attention. It seems a lot of people consider it but then you get to a point when you're ready to overcome the ick factor and just do it. I've heard a few doctors suggest it for extensive prior antibiotic treatments.
If this theory is correct then no matter what we do, our immune system will destroy it. Which is similar to what happens in certain transplants such as pancreatic transplants. The immune system destroys the Beta cells in the pancreas and replacing the pancreas or even the Beta cells doesn't solve the solution because the very cause of the destruction (the immune system) has not been addressed.
So the subject of fecal transplants is moot if indeed this theory is right.
As for probiotics, they make me deadly ill.
Thanks, Gabes.
Monique
Diagnosed 2011 with LC. Currently on Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN)
