Hi Z,
Here's how I see it. Non-celiac gluten sensitivity is basically the same disease process as celiac - the differences are that the former doesn't show up on the classic blood tests for celiac and may in fact be an earlier stage (before the villi are damaged enough to let the gluten antibodies into the bloodstream); that different genes predispose to each; and that non-celiac GS has many more food sensivities.
Both are unquestionally immune system diseases. Antibodies to gluten are definitely found in the gut in non-celiac GS. There is a semantic issue here too. "Autoimmune", strictly speaking, means that the body is attacking its own tissue. This is definitely occuring with celiac, and the result of this attack is seen in the blunting of the small intestinal tissue (villi) on endoscopy. However, in non-celiac GS, I'm not sure we have any actual evidence of the body attacking itself, although of course, it is attacking the gluten molecule. All we have are microscopic changes on gut biopsy (white cells, collagen), which are non-specific and can be seen in other disease processes as well. Some might say that MC is not autoimmune - based on the fact that in MC the body makes antibodies to its "good" gut bacteria and not to any of its own tissues. I guess the question is whether you believe the gut bacteria is our own tissue or a foreign entity.
Hugs,
Polly
Colonoscopy Results
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
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tex wrote:Jean,
If you decide to write a book on that topic, I will definitely buy a copy.
Tex
Tex,
I would love to be able to write that book but I am not sure I am up to the task. A book that I just read and mentioned in an earlier post in this thread "Nameless Diseases" by Terra Ziporyn is a good introduction to the topic but I finished it wanting more To be successful at this endeavor I would have to sharpen my minimal to non-existent skills as a historian, philosopher and scientist. Seems like the topic would mesh well with your book, especially your discussion of the relationship between celiac disease and MC, but I am compiling a reading list and who knows, maybe I will actually do it.
Jean
Polly,
Except that I'm not so sure that autoantibodies are not present with NCGS, The reason why Dr. Fasano et al can't find those autoantibodies is because they always look for them in the the wrong place. Duh! They keep checking the blood, when the antibodies are located in the intestines. Celiac sprue is not a disease of the blood — it's a disease of the intestines.
It appears that the main reason why doc Fasano is lost and confused, is because he denies the validity of Dr. Fines work, and as a result, his own research results are often corrupt, because of his petty professional spitefulness which prevents him from using the best technology for detecting antibodies due to food sensitivities (namely, stool tests).
Tex
Except that I'm not so sure that autoantibodies are not present with NCGS, The reason why Dr. Fasano et al can't find those autoantibodies is because they always look for them in the the wrong place. Duh! They keep checking the blood, when the antibodies are located in the intestines. Celiac sprue is not a disease of the blood — it's a disease of the intestines.
It appears that the main reason why doc Fasano is lost and confused, is because he denies the validity of Dr. Fines work, and as a result, his own research results are often corrupt, because of his petty professional spitefulness which prevents him from using the best technology for detecting antibodies due to food sensitivities (namely, stool tests).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Tex,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware that any researcher has yet discovered autoantibodies in the case of non-specific gluten sensitivity. Of course, Dr. Fine has discovered antibodies to gluten in the intestine, but these would not be classified as "auto" antibodies - they are antibodies to an ingested substance, and not to specific human tissue, as would be required of autoantibodies. Dr. Fine believes that it is the antibody/antigen complex that causes the non-specific inflammatory response (MC) in colon biopsies as well as the overgrowth of "bad" bacteria.
Love,
Polly
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware that any researcher has yet discovered autoantibodies in the case of non-specific gluten sensitivity. Of course, Dr. Fine has discovered antibodies to gluten in the intestine, but these would not be classified as "auto" antibodies - they are antibodies to an ingested substance, and not to specific human tissue, as would be required of autoantibodies. Dr. Fine believes that it is the antibody/antigen complex that causes the non-specific inflammatory response (MC) in colon biopsies as well as the overgrowth of "bad" bacteria.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
For some reason or other, he offers an Anti-Tissue Transglutaminase Antibody test, based on IgA antibodies in stool samples:
https://www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/T ... spx#tissue
Surely there's a reason.
Love,
Tex
For some reason or other, he offers an Anti-Tissue Transglutaminase Antibody test, based on IgA antibodies in stool samples:
https://www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/T ... spx#tissue
Surely there's a reason.
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Tex,
That's true. Good point. My understanding is that this test is positive in the great majority of celiacs and in a much lesser number of those with Crohn's and ulcerative colitis. Of course, it is also positive in other diseases where tissue is being destroyed - Hashimoto's thyroiditis, for example. But I wonder if it's ever positive in non-celiac gluten sensitivity??? I haven't seen any comment on this by Dr. Fine. He does talk about damage occuring at the cellular level in the gut that cannot yet be picked up on by endoscopy - perhaps this test would be any early sign of that? Could this test be used to find that point at which non-celiac gluten sensitivity becomes celiac? It might be fun to ask him about this.
Zizzle, people who have a positive anti-tissue transglutaminase test are much more likely to develop additional immune diseases.
Love,
Polly
That's true. Good point. My understanding is that this test is positive in the great majority of celiacs and in a much lesser number of those with Crohn's and ulcerative colitis. Of course, it is also positive in other diseases where tissue is being destroyed - Hashimoto's thyroiditis, for example. But I wonder if it's ever positive in non-celiac gluten sensitivity??? I haven't seen any comment on this by Dr. Fine. He does talk about damage occuring at the cellular level in the gut that cannot yet be picked up on by endoscopy - perhaps this test would be any early sign of that? Could this test be used to find that point at which non-celiac gluten sensitivity becomes celiac? It might be fun to ask him about this.
Zizzle, people who have a positive anti-tissue transglutaminase test are much more likely to develop additional immune diseases.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Dear Polly and Tex
I wonder what is the % of members who have taken the Enerolab test and had positive Anti-tissue Transglutaminase results?
Best wishes, Ant
PS I wanted to set up a poll to answer my own question, but being dumb I could not work out how to do it
The Enterolab Anti-tissue Transglutaminase was positive for me. I assume it has declined after over two years of gluten free. Maybe time to test again......Fecal Anti-tissue Transglutaminase IgA 70 Units
I wonder what is the % of members who have taken the Enerolab test and had positive Anti-tissue Transglutaminase results?
Best wishes, Ant
PS I wanted to set up a poll to answer my own question, but being dumb I could not work out how to do it
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"Softly, softly catchee monkey".....
"Softly, softly catchee monkey".....
Ant,
Were you ever diagnosed with celiac disease by the classic diagnostic criteria? Of course, you have two celiac genes, so you are certainly a candidate, and those genes alone are almost surely sufficient to predispose you to a positive TTG result.
You can only start a poll from a new topic. If you start one, you should see the boxes/windows for entering the poll information below the regular message-composing window. When entering the poll selections, enter each one on a line, then hit "return", and enter the next one, and so on. Just leave the number of days for the poll to run, blank, and the poll will remain open forever (which is usually the best choice).
Tex
Were you ever diagnosed with celiac disease by the classic diagnostic criteria? Of course, you have two celiac genes, so you are certainly a candidate, and those genes alone are almost surely sufficient to predispose you to a positive TTG result.
You can only start a poll from a new topic. If you start one, you should see the boxes/windows for entering the poll information below the regular message-composing window. When entering the poll selections, enter each one on a line, then hit "return", and enter the next one, and so on. Just leave the number of days for the poll to run, blank, and the poll will remain open forever (which is usually the best choice).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Dear Tex,
No I was never tested for Celiac. When I talked to my GI about positive effects of going gluten free. He suggested I do a gluten challenge and then he could test me with the blood tests and endoscope procedure.
I declined going back on gluten. I think I will check via enterolab at some point to see if the TTG results have improved.
Thanks for the poll instructions.
Best, Ant
No I was never tested for Celiac. When I talked to my GI about positive effects of going gluten free. He suggested I do a gluten challenge and then he could test me with the blood tests and endoscope procedure.
I declined going back on gluten. I think I will check via enterolab at some point to see if the TTG results have improved.
Thanks for the poll instructions.
Best, Ant
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"Softly, softly catchee monkey".....
"Softly, softly catchee monkey".....