freezer left overs

Leah · Post by **Leah** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:49 pm

So, I defrosted some beef/vegetable soup I had made a couple weeks ago. I ate some last night. Oh my God, I was in so much pain. Bloated, gas..... It didn't do this to me when I first made it. Anyone know what the hell is going on?

Leah

tlras · Post by **tlras** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:37 pm

Oh no Leah! I have to say "What's up with that?" myself. Did you defrost in the fridge? This is worrisome as I always freeze my chicken/veggie soup and defrost in the fridge the night before I eat it. I actually ate some last night and got a little bloated so go figure. It seems like at times nothing is safe.

Hope someone can give you some answers! Sorry you had such pain. Doesn't make sense does it?

Terri

Post by **Rosie** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:05 pm

I read, but don't often post these days, but this post caught my eye. The freshly made meat stock works fine for me, but I have encountered the same intolerance to frozen and thawed meat stock, and have actually stopped making it. Although I don't know for sure if this is the cause, I have noticed that when I thawed out beef or chicken stock, several inches of fluffy material would settle out in the bottom of the jar that I don't see in the fresh broth, and it tastes slightly different too. So I assume that it has something to do with the meat protein, fat, or other components of meat or bones. At one point I thought that the meat stock was just too "rich", whatever that means, but agree that there must be something else going on. I'll speculate that some physical or chemical change happens during freezing and thawing the meat stock that some of us are sensitive to.

I haven't seen the settling of fluffy material happen with plain vegetable stock, and the frozen veggie stock has never given me a problem. I now only use veggie stock for my soups and stews, and gravies. It tastes good, and no issues. I thought that I was the only one with this problem, and couldn't understand why, as everyone else on the forum were singing the praises of home-made meat stock! Our individual food sensitives sure can seem strange sometimes......

Rosie

coryhub · Post by **coryhub** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:03 pm

Yes, there are days when nothing seems safe or doable. I'm always wondering is it me or the food? The fact that one day something seems okay and not okay three days later, baffles me. If I could not freeze my work lunches I'd probably starve to death because I am too tired week nights to cook.
I feel so much better since I got back on Entocort three days ago. I know that steroid medicines are bad for osteoporosis and at my age(60) I already have it. It's in the family genetics. Still U worry about such side-effects.
Cory

Post by **tex** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:09 pm

Hmmmmmmmm. This is an interesting observation. We come up with the dangdest issues on this board, don't we.

Freezing and thawing is both an engineering and a chemistry problem, but apparently the chemical aspect is at issue here, and it's the rate of formation of ice crystals in the meat that results in the problems noted. My guess is that the "fluffy material" that settles out from thawed meat stock is due to water migration and separation of solution, due to a slow freezing process. As noted in the last sentence on the page at the link below:

Exudation indicates histological damage by ice crystals

Consider this:

During freezing most of the water content of the meat, about 80 percent, solidifies into pure ice crystals, accompanied by a separation of dissolved solids.

A product can be considered frozen when its centre has a temperature of -12°C (10°F) or less. To reach this temperature the product passes through the temperature range of maximum crystallization (from -1° to -5°C) (30°F to 23°F). The speed of freezing is a very important factor as frozen meat quality depends mainly on the size of the ice crystal formed: the lower the speed of freezing the larger the size of the crystals.

Slow freezing facilitates the separation of solution and the migration of water out of the muscle cells which is subsequently frozen, forming rather large crystals. Quick freezing conversely produces many small ice crystals, mainly formed within the muscle cells, and reduces water migration and separation of solution. It is obvious that the latter technology will preserve the meat closer to its original quality and, particularly during thawing, moisture loss will generally be lower.

The International Institute of Refrigeration (IIR) expresses the freezing speed as the velocity with which a temperature front moves through the body of the product (cm/h). Good results are attained when the speed is from 2 to 5 cm/h (0.8 in/h to 2 in/h). Slow freezing is considered to be below 1 cm/h (0.4 in/h) and quick freezing above 5 cm/h (2 in/h).

http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/T0098E/T0098E02.htm

Note that I added the English units in red, to make this easier to interpret for those of us not used to working in metric units. The in/h stands stands for inches per hour, which corresponds to centimeters per hour (cm/h) listed in the original article.

Here's how quick freezing is done:

Freezing is performed in tunnels or in chambers with intense air circulation called blast chambers. Air temperatures should be in the range of -30° to -35°C; sometimes -40°C is used. Air is circulated at high speed, from 2 to 4 m/s (7 to 13 fps) and up to 6 m/s (20 fps). An air circulation coefficient of 150–300 is used inside freezing chambers. Relative humidity is maintained at 95 percent or above.

In these conditions half beef carcasses or quarters are frozen in about 16– 20 hours, cut-up meat in cardboard boxes measuring 54×34×16 cm (21x13x6 inches) in about four hours and small prepackaged cuts in about one hour.

fps represents feet per second to correspond to meters per second (m/s). I don't have any idea how close home freezers can come to this, but I suspect that they typically fall short, and this is the reason for the formation of large ice crystals during freezing (and the associated breakdown of cell walls, and fluids migration).

Also note the comments about thawing:

Thawing is another critical phase in the freezing process as it involves a change from ice crystals to melted water, which is reabsorbed, and microbial reactivation.

If heat is applied to the frozen product its surface becomes warm enough to transfer heat to the inside and create conditions of temperature and humidity suitable for microbial development. Low temperature thawing, below 5°C (41°F), reduces the risk of microbial growth and produces a slow thawing rate which guarantees efficient reabsorption of the melted water.

While we're on the subject of freezing foods, note the chart at that site that shows the practical storage life (in months) of meats based on storage temperature. To make this easier to interpret, consider that:

-18 °C = 0 °F
-25 °C = -13 °F
-30 °C = -22 °F

Note that ground meat doesn't store as well as whole meat.

Of course cooking also presumably breaks down the cell walls of the meat, so this could be the cause of the "exudation" issue. Or maybe it's a combination effect.

I just checked the temperature in my freezer, and it showed -3 °F on the top shelf, -12°F on the bottom. I have an upright freezer, and it's set for maximum cooling, FWIW.

Tex

fatbuster205 · Post by **fatbuster205** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Hi Leah,

So sorry you are having a reaction! I have purposely prepared about a month's worth of food all in my freezer and have not had any problems as yet (and after this post I hope that it continues!). But you refer to stock and Rosie mention a fluffy sediment? Might it be that stock needs to be passed through a filter to remove impurities? Just a thought! Get well soon!

Anne

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:14 pm

Wow - nothing is safe in our humbling MC world!!! Thanks for your post Leah, it got me thinking. Yesterday I had explosive WD and couldn't figure out WHY. Lo and behold, I had eaten frozen home made chicken soup (supposedly "medicine" for my cold) which I thawed out on the stove

. Is there an end anywhere in sight to what we have to look out for?????

Wishing you a speedy recovery.

Love,
Kari

Leah · Post by **Leah** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:29 pm

Yes, I always thaw in the fridge. Now, I think I won't freeze soups and just try to eat them as soon as possible out of the fridge. Weird.

Leah

gluten · Post by **gluten** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:30 pm

Hi Leah, How long did the soup sit before you froze it? Jon

Leah · Post by **Leah** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:14 pm

It probably sat for about half an hour ( while we ate dinner) and then I put the rest in a container and froze it.

leah

gluten · Post by **gluten** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:31 pm

Hi Leah, I am always afraid to leave food out to long after cooking to avoid any bacteria from growing. Frozen dinners that you buy are flash frozen to prevent any possible bacterial growth. I always thought that by freezing food would kill any bacteria. But, when I called the company that makes VSL-No3 a probiotic that has live cultures they told me me that it will not hurt them as they will revive after they are warmed up by the body. I was going to add the probiotic to yogurt and make ice cream cones with g-f cones and freeze them. Jon

wmonique2 · Post by **wmonique2** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:20 pm

Hello gang,

How about making soup for like 2-3 days and eating it without freezing it? I never freeze food because it never tastes good to me when I thaw out. Something happens in this process that alters the taste and for sure the texture. It is rare that I find something still tastes good after I freeze. Chicken always has a strong after taste. I've tried freezing soups and meals, but I have yet to find it as tasty as the original meal. Soups taste actually better the following day without freezing, just refrigerated.

i think meal manufacturers use a different process and even with them it's either a hit or a miss (most often a miss)...just my .02 cents.

Monique

Post by **tex** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:43 pm

Monique,

I don't see anything wrong with that plan unless you have a histamine problem. Histamines increase in refrigerated food as time passes. Fresh chicken, for example, is low histamine. After several days of refrigeration, it becomes relatively high-histamine chicken.

Actually, fresh-cooked food (thoroughly-cooked food) should be free of most terrestrial bacteria after cooking. It will have to be inoculated with bacteria before they can begin to multiply in/on it. How soon that happens depends on the environment to which the food is exposed. Remember that water, for example, is loaded with bacteria. Hunters learn that early on (well, they should learn it, but many of them don't, these days). The point is, if you field dress wild game, and leave the body cavity open to dry, in a shady place, venison, for example, will keep for at least several days to a week without any spoilage, unless the weather is unusually hot and humid. If you wash the carcass with water, it will begin to spoil in a day or two, under the same atmospheric conditions.

I usually let fresh-cooked food sit out and cool for at least several hours before refrigerating it or freezing it.

Tex

wmonique2 · Post by **wmonique2** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:14 pm

Tex,

More of a reason to cook it and eat it, which is what I do. I do have a histamine problem...and chicken is only good cooked and eaten. Reheating it for some reason leaves an unpleasant taste...

This system, though, may present a problem for people who have no time and like to freeze or reheat food. It's even a bigger problem if you cook for one (my case). But hey, we have MC! No one said it was going to be easy

Monique

Post by **tex** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:23 pm

I have the same problem (cooking for one, while not particularly enjoying cooking), but so far I've had good luck with cooking relatively large batches and freezing them to be thawed and reheated later. Right now my freezer contains chili, stew, soup, ham, sausage, a few pork chops, and even pancakes, in individual serving sizes. Breakfast is about the only meal that I make from scratch most days (bacon and eggs, wrapped in a tortilla), and occasionally I cheat on that a little by simply frying some bacon and reheating a pancake out of the freezer.

I've ordered a deep fryer to try, though, so I may start making a few more meals from scratch, whenever I feel inspired (I'm thinking fried catfish and French fries, for example).

Tex