Supplements - what is safe and what is not

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henrym
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Supplements - what is safe and what is not

Post by henrym »

Hi y'all !!!

I have a question about supplements, what is actually benefiting and what would harm us.
I found out that a lot of stuff is triggering my MC, but I also feel in our case we need supplements because of the poor absorption of vitamins.


Next to Entocort I take (here comes the list :lol:):
vit B complex
B12 shot
vit C
vit D3/K
vit A
omega 3
l-glutamine (very recently)
5-htp (very recently)

What is your list?
And I like to hear what your experiences are with taking supplements?

Last week I started taking 5-htp (100mg) and l-glutamine before sleep, since my sleeping patterns were all of the map and because of its positive influence on mood.
I am also wondering what the experiences are with 5-htp and glutamine on this forum. I've read it could worsen conditions from people that have crohn's disease and ibs and am a bit confused if it is safe to take it.

greetings from icy berlin!!!!



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Post by humbird753 »

Hi Henry - I was taking:

B Complex
D3 (5,000 i.u./day)
Multivitamin
Calcium 600 with D
L Glutamine
Probiotic

Like you, I decided I needed extra supplements due to malabsorption because of D. I did, however, take a closer look at the ingredients on my supplements and found my B Complex, Multivitamin, and my Calcium all contained soy which is something I seem to react to. I have stopped taking those 3. I am currently looking into replacing them with ingredients I can tolerate. So...have you looked at the ingredients in the ones you take? They can cause problems if they contain things you are sensitive to such as gluten, dairy, or soy.

Paula
Paula

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"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's learning to dance in the rain."
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Post by henrym »

Hi Paula,

I also react to soy, I made sure my supplements don't contain gluten, dairy, or soy.
They don't seem to cause any problems (for now at least).
Can't say anything yet about the L-glutamine or 5-htp though.
Are you still using L-glutamine? How does that work for you?

Henry
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tex
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Post by tex »

Hi Henry,

Since part of my terminal ileum is missing, and I have peripheral neuropathy (due to gluten damage), l take a multivitamin, and a prescription vitamin known as Metanx, that contains the active forms of vitamins B-12, B-9, and B-6. The Metanx has helped to reduce my peripheral neuropathy symptoms, but most people probably do not need to take it. I also take a capsule with 1,200 mg of fish oil, and another with 1,200 mg of flax seed oil, a magnesium supplement, and lutein (for my eyes — I have drusen).

Be careful with the vitamin A, unless it is in the form of beta-carotene. Beta-carotene is a natural source of vitamin A (the body uses beta-carotene to produce vitamin A, as needed), but most vitamin supplements use the synthetic substitute, retinol. Not only can too much retinol be toxic, but it can interfere with the absorption of vitamin D, and eventually lead to a vitamin D deficiency.

For anyone who has a celiac gene though, or one of the other genes that predisposes to non-celiac gluten sensitivity (which includes virtually everyone who has MC), there is another reason to be careful with vitamin A supplements. Rather than to take the time to rephrase it, I'll just quote a section from my book, where this is discussed:
Interleukin-15 may interact with vitamin A to promote the loss of tolerance for gluten
Recent research has shown that a metabolite of vitamin A, retinoic acid, together with interleukin-15 (IL-15) in the intestines of patients with celiac disease, may be responsible for generating the inflammation that results in celiac disease.7 Since the problem does not occur if IL-15 is absent, it has been proposed that developing ways to block IL-15 may be an effective approach for preventing and treating gluten sensitivity. Like retinoic acid, isotretinoin is a first-generation retinoid, and it is the active ingredient in the product Accutane and other medications used in the treatment in acne, that have been associated with the development of inflammatory bowel disease. Obviously, this may have implications for both the prevention and treatment of microscopic colitis, as well.

This also implies that until a safe and effective way to block IL-15 is developed, if we take a vitamin A supplement, we should minimize the retinol form that is found in many vitamins. Instead, our vitamin A supplementation should be limited to the beta-carotene form, whenever possible. It appears that the esters of retinol may also be a problem.

The main component of palm oil is retinyl palmitate, which is an ester of retinol. Also, the terms "Retinyl acetate", "retinol acetate", and "vitamin A acetate", are all names for the same thing. They refer to the acetate ester of retinol, which apparently is ultimately converted to retinoic acid by the body. This conversion tends to occur whether the product is applied topically (to the skin) or ingested. That suggests that for anyone sensitive to gluten, the retinol that results from the conversion could combine with IL-15 to generate enteritis, (intestinal inflammation).
And here is the reference cited in the first paragraph in that quote:

7. DePaolo, R. W., Abadie, V., Tang, F., Fehlner-Peach, H., Hall J. A., Wang, W., . . . Jabri, B. (2011). Co-adjuvant effects of retinoic acid and IL-15 induce inflammatory immunity to dietary antigens. Nature, 471(7337), 220–224. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21307853

You can read the full article if you click on the "Free PMC Article" link below the abstract.

I've never tried L-glutamine or 5-htp, so I can't comment on those.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by henrym »

Thanks Tex,

Interesting read about the vitamin A. I take vitamin A from fish liver oil, so is that not a good form then?
I also read somewhere that it is advisable to take vitamin A when you take vitamin D3 (and viceversa).
By the way I ordered your book yesterday.

Roy
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Post by tex »

Roy,

Yes, vitamin A is known to protect against vitamin D toxicity, and vitamin D is known to protect against vitamin A toxicity, and in moderation, vitamin A supplementation is probably safe. But even the archaeological records show that too much vitamin A is definitely not a good thing for human health, especially when it is sourced from liver. Please read the article at the following link for more information on the issue:

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-arc ... -toxicity/

Thank you. I hope you will find the book to be a useful guide for living with MC, and a handy reference.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by brandy »

Hi Henry,

I'm 137 pound 5'6" tall woman and tried 50 mg of 5HTP Monday night for sleep issues. Alas it was too strong for me and I could not tolerate it. I took it Monday night right after dinner. (I ignored the instructions to take on empty stomach.) I slept slightly better than normal. Woke up Wednesday a little light headed. As the morning went on I got more tired. At lunch time I had to take a walk outside to stay awake.
Came back from lunch and had to call my boss to go home early. Had to lie down from 2:00 to 5:00. Maybe it will work better for you.

Re: L Glutamine--it seems to be a mixed bag on this forum. Some people swear by it but it seems to have no efficacy for some. I think it is like the probiotics thing--helpful for some but harmful for some.

Brandy
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Post by henrym »

Hi Brandy,

I took 100mg of 5htp the past week before bedtime and it helped me greatly getting a normal night's sleep.
Waking up without headaches and feeling (a lot) more awake than usual, it was really something!

Of course this all sounds good, but I also have been feeling a bit more sensitive to food the last days.
Maybe that's why I started this post.
We always try to make ourselves feel better, taking new vitamins or trying new diets and it doesn't always work out as you probably experienced yourselves.

I started reading about 5htp today and found some links that 5htp, or elevated Serotonin levels, might be associated with Collagenous Colitis!!
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v105/ ... 1090a.html
This is something to be cautious about!

After this article and my 'gut feeling' I decided to stop using it.
I have to say I really liked the effects of 5htp, but there must be other, hopefully safer ways of getting the same results...


I'd better go to sleep now..

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Post by Fish2575 »

Only when not horribly flaring:

2000 Vitamin D
1000 L-Glutamine
1000 L-Lysine
1000 Biotin
200 Magnesium Chelate
Alpha Lipoic Acid (have no idea what it does but a doc I like recommended it!)


Trying to heal my gut and keep my hair from falling out! I totally came upon these vitamins on my own and love any feedback! I should be taking Calcium, but my dad told me not to take it with the others, and so I never remember!
I was afraid of fish oil for histamine, and had B vitamin overload last spring.

Susie
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Post by henrym »

tex wrote: Be careful with the vitamin A, unless it is in the form of beta-carotene. Beta-carotene is a natural source of vitamin A (the body uses beta-carotene to produce vitamin A, as needed), but most vitamin supplements use the synthetic substitute, retinol. Not only can too much retinol be toxic, but it can interfere with the absorption of vitamin D, and eventually lead to a vitamin D deficiency.

....

This also implies that until a safe and effective way to block IL-15 is developed, if we take a vitamin A supplement, we should minimize the retinol form that is found in many vitamins. Instead, our vitamin A supplementation should be limited to the beta-carotene form, whenever possible. It appears that the esters of retinol may also be a problem.

The main component of palm oil is retinyl palmitate, which is an ester of retinol. Also, the terms "Retinyl acetate", "retinol acetate", and "vitamin A acetate", are all names for the same thing. They refer to the acetate ester of retinol, which apparently is ultimately converted to retinoic acid by the body. This conversion tends to occur whether the product is applied topically (to the skin) or ingested. That suggests that for anyone sensitive to gluten, the retinol that results from the conversion could combine with IL-15 to generate enteritis, (intestinal inflammation).


Tex[/quote]

I've read an article saying that retinol is the preferred form? Excerpt and link to full article below.

"In 2009, researchers at the Sloan-Kettering Institute for Cancer Research identified a previously unknown and vital role for retinol. It turns out that retinol is needed by mitochondria (the power plants of our cells) and without it, the enzyme kinase C delta cannot be activated. [1]
This can lead to a drop in oxygen consumption and ATP production - ATP being the fuel for our bodies at the cellular level.
The study's authors also reported that only retinol qualifies as a mitochondrial response modifier. They went on to say that the connection to energy production in cells may explain the multiple effects and largely unexplained pathologies that result from a vitamin A deficiency, including immune deficiency and male sterility, and cannot be reconciled using retinoic acid (from provitamin A).
Retinol can be found directly in animal sources of vitamin A or converted from retinal in the body, which is usually produced from ingesting provitamin A (beta carotene).
While that may seem like both animal and plant sources provide the retinol our bodies need, it's not exactly the case. It has long been assumed that provitamin A automatically converts to retinal on demand but we now know that up to 50% of the population has a defect in the enzyme responsible for converting provitamin A to retinal. If you're only consuming provitamin A, no retinal means no retinol.
This is important to note for people getting their vitamin A from multivitamins because the vast majority of them include provitamin A. Vegetarians should also take note because plants do not contain retinol so supplementing with retinyl palmitate, a plant-based precursor of retinol, may be desired."

link: http://web.archive.org/web/201106220654 ... -you-think
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Post by tex »

Hi Roy,

While that article sounds convincing, all you have to do is to look at it from a logical viewpoint, to see that the conclusions are wrong. The author took a little existing research, and then added his own unverified claims, to distort the conclusions. Here is the original research article, and this information is valid:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19812372

But here is the fly in the ointment:
but we now know that up to 50% of the population has a defect in the enzyme responsible for converting provitamin A to retinal. If you're only consuming provitamin A, no retinal means no retinol.
Do we actually know that? Where's the proof. Why wasn't a source cited? The author has 11 references for the article, and yet the most critical point of the entire article does not have a reference to establish its validity. Does that seem a bit suspicious to you — it looks suspicious to me. Apparently it's hogwash.

Clearly that claim has no basis in fact. If 50 % of the population had that problem, then half the population would be unable to function normally. Obviously, that's not the case.

IOW, the author of that blog took one or two truths, and added his own false claim, to reach an invalid conclusion. All we have to do is to look back about a century or two in time, to see that the conclusions of that research article are incorrect. Back in those days, people were much healthier than they are now, and most of them had to do actual hard, physical work in order to make a living. Vitamin supplements were rarely used (since there was no huge pharmaceutical industry). The real test is to look at archaeological evidence from the paleolithic period in our history. The paleo people were bigger, healthier, and generally far more robust than people living today. They certainly didn't have any retinol-based vitamin supplements available, but they did have plenty of sources for beta-carotene.

The safest policy is to get our vitamin A from natural sources, not from supplements.

Incidentally, I notice that the reference you cited is from a web archive. That means that the site no longer exists. Why did it disappear? Was it because of questions about the validity of the content that was posted there? The site was created in early 2011, but it apparently didn't last very long. Here's a post about its creation, by the founder of the website, on another web site:

http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t482 ... thyfixxcom

It appears that someone was attempting to establish a consulting business, and they thought that the website would help to further that cause.

The bottom line is that beta-carotene works for virtually everyone, and it's a much safer source of vitamin A than retinol supplements, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by henrym »

Thanks Tex!

I'd better switch my vitamin A then, or is it not neccesary to take any vit A when you take vit D3?

By the way, your book arrived, it is an interesting read!

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Post by tex »

It's best to not take any vitamin A at all, as far as the vitamin D is concerned, because vitamin A is antagonistic of vitamin D. But that doesn't mean that you should never take it.

If you feel that you need to take a vitamin A supplement, as long as most of the vitamin A in the supplement is in the form of beta-carotene, it should be OK, because we can't take too much beta-carotene. If it contains more than 1,500 or 2,000 IU of a retinol (or retinyl) form of vitamin A, though, it might be better to look for a safer supplement. Here's what Dr. John Cannell (founder of the vitamin D council) says about vitamin A supplements:
As far as vitamin A, the question is, do we get enough in our diet? The answer appears to be that we do, maybe way too much due to widespread food fortification and the use of vitamin A supplements, vitamin A in multivitamins, and cod liver oil. Beta-carotene is fine but if your multivitamin says retinyl acetate or retinyl palmitate, 5,000 IU, do not take it.

The problem of widespread vitamin A toxicity is so perverse; it includes the monkeys and apes we use in experiments, perhaps those we keep in our zoos. Drs. Joseph Dever and Sherry Tanumihardjo, of the University of Wisconsin, reported that liver biopsies of such primates show evidence of liver damage from the vitamin A. The reason is that way too much vitamin A is added to primate chow4.
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-arc ... -and-acne/

I hope that the book will be helpful, and that it will provide a good source of reference material.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by henrym »

Thanks Tex,

I am enjoying your book, it makes a lot of sense.
Also I am realizing something interesting because of it...

About 6 years ago I have been diagnosed with Meniere's disease, kind of early for my age (I am 35 now)...
When I look at triggers for the disease and treatments they are very similar to MC.
http://www.mduk.org/index.php?topic=3338.0
2 years ago when I got troubled with MC I noticed my Meniere problems got reduced.
A the moment while the MC is kinda under control (...) the Meniere symptoms get worse again, more pressure and tinnitus.
Of course I am not 100 % sure that there is a connection, it could also be a trigger to certain foods or allergies (I also have more itching),
but this seems to aknowledge the theory you have Tex about the body choosing to fight one opponent at at time...
Anyway, it is interesting to me how much these things connect to one another.
Of course I wish to get both problems under control at the same time, but this seems to give hope regarding to Meniere's disease that it can be controllable with diet, etc.

Roy
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Post by tex »

Roy,

Are you by any chance taking Pepto Bismol, or another form of bismuth subsalicylate? Tinnitus is a known side effect of bismuth subsalicylate for some people, and we have several other members who cannot take it for that reason.

We also have more than one member who noticed that their hearing improved significantly after they controlled their MC symptoms by diet changes.

Unfortunately, I know absolutely nothing about Meniere's disease, but there is some evidence that it may be an autoimmune disease. Here's a link to an abstract of a research article that discusses the possibility that it may be an autoimmune issue, and the second link will allow you to read the entire research article:

Meniere's disease might be an autoimmune condition? — Abstract only


Meniere's disease might be an autoimmune condition? — Full article

If it's an autoimmune disease, then IMO, you should be able to control it by diet changes, because as I mentioned in the book, I have a very strong hunch that all so-called autoimmune diseases are not actually autoimmune diseases at all, but the result of exogenous antigens (that is, certain types of external allergens that trigger an immune system response).

Tex
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