The Fiber Hoax/Paradox/Dilemma

[Deb]

Monique, when I switched over to a lower carb diet (and ate a lot of meat) my cholesterol didn't change much so I had the particle size checked. They were mostly large and fluffy, which is considered low risk, versus small and dense, which is a risk factor. Also, my HDL rose significantly.

[Leah]

I agree with Tex. Eating foods with cholesterol don't raise cholesterol in the blood. I have always started my day with eggs and have been on a high protein diet for most of my adult life ( it repairs muscles and keeps weight off) and my last total cholesterol test was a 149. It's crazy that doctors still preach that BS.

Let us know Monique if taking dairy out helps.
Leah

[wmonique2]

Tex,



Thanks for that post and all the links. Well, eggs have taken a beating (pun intended :) for a very long time. They are as praised as they are vilified. And they are very vilified by the diabetic community. I have never eaten any eggs period. I occasionally ate the phony kind, a poor substitute for the real thing. I followed "conventional wisdom" and didn't take any chances. However, this last year, because of the flares I was looking for soft foods without any roughage and I am now eating them occasionally with a side of grits.

I hate that my breakfast is loaded with carbs (40 gr) but never found any protein substitutes. I may try more eggs and protein and see if this affect my cholesterol. I see my doc every 3 months. Not that my total cholesterol was fabulous last time (250). Even my good cholesterol was higher. When I ate lots of vegies and fruits, it was 190. When I stopped eating all that roughage it jumped 50 points in no time. The roughage pulls all that cholesterol out of the body, I guess.

As far as you being an ignorant good ol' country boy, that is definitely a knee-slapping remark and

Love,

Monique

[HacksawOnrye]

First, this site has been a wealth of great info for someone newly diagnosed with LC. I appreciate it so much I bought the book. ;)

I too am diabetic and consider myself a very healthy one living with it for 39 years with no complications (last A1C was 6.6). The fiber conundrum has me tied in knots. About six years ago, a picture of me at the beach rattled me into getting serious about my health. I exercise at least 5 times a week and eat A LOT of raw fruits and vegetables. This regimen helped me shed 45 pounds. And my diabetic control is fantastic.

If I nix the switch raw fruits and veggies with carbs, my diabetic control will become much harder. But from what I am gathering, that is one of the steps I must take. I have worked towards eliminating gluten, milk and eggs in the past week. Eggs I miss the most. Hmmm, eggs. I have eaten a one pound salad every day for lunch for the past 6 years. Now what do I trade it for without gaining weight and playing the blood sugar tango/

I know that I'll figure it out, but the avoid-the-fiber-aspect is throwing me right now.

My hunch at the moment is to trade the salad for a baggable protein (I eat at my desk most days) and... Here's my dilemna. Cooked veggies? High pain in the rear factor. Rice? Blood sugar surfing here I come. On the plus side, I have no problem eating a bland, predictable meal. I just need one that is easy with low carbs. Input much appreciated.

[tex]

I could be wrong, but IMO, diabetes trumps MC, so we have to be very careful when we consider changing long-standing practices that have a proven track record of working well for us personally. Some of us can tolerate fiber better than others, but that depends on the inflammation level in our intestines. There is no question that overcooked vegetables work much better for us than raw ones. The same goes for fruit, but fruit carries a double whammy, in that most fruit contains a lot of fructose, which some of us don't seem to tolerate very well until after our gut heals. But maybe you don't have a fructose problem.

Carbs from vegetables and fruit should be much better than carbs from grain, not only for diabetes, but for MC, also. It's getting late enough here that I can't think straight any more, but it appears that you may need to figure out a lunch that utilizes more protein, along with cooked or canned fruit and vegetables. If you use any grains, they should preferably contain primarily amylose starch, not amylopectin starch. Amylose is much more difficult to digest, so it should have a lower glycemic index than amylopectin starch. The problem is that if you are in a flare, you may not be able to digest amylose very well at all, which could cause gas and bloating, as the undigested starch ferments in your colon.

And are you sure that you're sensitive to eggs? Probably less than half of us are.

Hopefully, someone else will have some ideas, and I'll look at this again tomorrow, when I'm awake.

Tex

[HacksawOnrye]

I'm definitely planning on the protein route. No worries there. The challenge is that high fiber food has a flatter burn rate so spikes in blood sugar are avoided. Probably not saying anything you don't already know. :) Cooked vegetables is probably path I'll explore first. My frustration stems from the inconvenience. I work at an IT company that has a cafeteria with a salad bar. I love that thing - fresh, raw veggies every day with very little effort on my part. So my frustration boils (pun not intended) down to the extra effort. And seeing it in type just now shows how petty that hurdle is. There now I feel better. Just need to figure out what works.

On the egg front. I'm not sure. I'm just two weeks into holistic treatment of LC journey. Everything feels very theoretical for me right now. I had been eating 2 whole eggs plus 2 egg whites for breakfast for years now. I went off eggs about two weeks ago and noticed an improvement. I tried them for breakfast again a couple of days ago and ended up having a frequent D day. But, I also have a lot of changes that I am putting together at the same time. Once I get things settled, I'll try re-introducing to see what happens. My breakfast is now turkey sausage, almond butter and honey on gluten free bread and a banana. Things SEEM to be better with that combo.

I am also taking psyllium husk based on some others praising it's benefits. Now I'm starting to doubt that route now. Any opinions there?

Thanks for you feedback - it is much appreciated. Your book arrived today so I'll be diving into it shortly. :)

[wmonique2]

Hack,

I have diabetes as well and what I do for lunch is not complicated. I buy Boars Head ham, turkey or chicken and put it on rice cakes (or GF bread) add avocado. Or I open a can of tuna or salmon...You can leave the stuff in the fridge and the bread or cakes at the office. Cakes are very low in carbs (7gr), leave them open face and pile the meat on them. I add dijon and whatever else you want...Or you can bring your bread to the cafeteria and buy protein from them if you miss being there.

The cooked vegies is for dinner when I have more time to prepare stuff. I use a pressure cooker which cuts the time in half. Peas, green beans in half an hour instead of a whole hour or more. Or I put chicken and peas together and cook for half an hour and it tastes heavenly..

Best,

Monique

[HacksawOnrye]

Ah, rice cakes. Good call. Hadn't gone there in years. : )

One of my challenges and the reason the salad was so helpful is that I tend to eat a large volume of food. I lost the weight and got better control of my blood sugar by changing the nature of the volume.

Anywho, I'm heading to the store in a bit with rice cakes now at the top of my list. Thanks, Monique!

[tex]

That sounds like a good plan. If you crave fruit at lunchtime, some members take along individual serving size fruit cups (since the fruit is cooked, it's easier to digest than fresh fruit), but you may need to check the label, since most of those contain a lot of fruit syrup (and probably added sugar). For all I know though, there may be special versions available that are more diabetes-friendly. Are bananas an option with diabetes? That's the one raw fruit that most (not all) of us can tolerate.

Rice cakes also make good snacks when topped with nut butters, if you can tolerate them.

I agree that unless you want to go to the trouble of cooking them before work, and carrying them in a thermos, or reheating them, cooked vegetables are best left for evening meals.

Tex

[Leah]

Hi Hack.
I don't know if the psyllium husk is a good idea. I know how you feel about having to change your thinking about fiber. I was the same. I'm a personal trainer and nutritionist and I was having a hard time wrapping my head around the low fiber thing at first. I use to eat huge salads for lunch.

This is how I got through it: I thought of the flare or start of this disease as my time to heal my gut. Fiber is a little like putting sandpaper to an open wound. Your intestines are too inflamed right now for it, BUT after you have gotten the inflammation down, you can test the roughage back in one thing at a time. After about 6 months, I tried salad again. Small at first. Now I can eat large one again! And beans! So, this is just your healing phase.

Good luck and happy reading. It's a great book )
Leah

[Gloria]

I don't want to rain on the bacon parade, but it is high in histamines, if you are watching your histamine intake. I rarely eat it for that reason.

Gloria

[Zizzle]

I eat uncured bacon on the weekends with eggs. I'm trying to make time for more eggs during the week too, but I've gotten into a morning smoothie routine with lots of raw kale, hemp seed protein, flax meal, chia seeds and other forms of churned up/liquefied fiber. Does grinding up the fiber like this change anything with respect to its actions in the colon??


Tex,
The amount of corn you eat is concerning to me. Aren't you suspicious of genetically modified, namely BT corn? Not to mention the risk of gluten cross-contamination in corn and corn chips?
Just today I saw this on our local Celiac listserv. I think Utz is a national brand now. Makes me think twice about trusting ANY corn chips:

Subject: Update Utz chips undeclared allergens
>
> I just had a very disappointing conversation with Stephanie at Utz Foods. The Organic Blue Corn Tortilla Chips are mislabeled and there should be an allergen warning on them for MILK and WHEAT. The chips are packaged on the same line as the Utz Party Mix which contains pretzels and cheese nacho chips. The bags are in the process of being properly labeled, but the date that these bags would hit the shelf is unknown.
>
> I also inquired whether this occurs with other products. Stephanie affirmed that it does with the whole tortilla chip line. Those with wheat or milk allergies should AVOID all their tortilla corn chips, including the organic line. The last sentence was a direct statement from the Utz representative and is not my recommendation. This is an issue of cross contamination due to processing practices, as stated in the first paragraph, and not allergens within the products themselves.
>
> There are three buildings for manufacturing at the plant. One is dedicated to pretzels; the second one processes potato and corn chips; and the third building manufactures the rice crisps and other specialty snacks. None of the gluten free products are processed in dedicated facilities. The possibility for cross contamination is the highest with the tortilla chips and the lowest with the rice crisps. The rice crisps are made on their own dedicated line. Stephanie said the lines are given a thorough cleaning, but occasionally "things slip through".
>
> Also, I have received two reports that a piece of the party mix was found in a bag of the corn chips (a piece of pretzel in one bag and a piece of nacho chip in another).

> I expressed my concern over changes in manufacturing practices before proper documentation on the product bag. Stephanie apologized and related that the relabeling of the bags is a slow process. She recommended calling their customer care department to inquire about possible undeclared allergens before eating any of their products.
>
> You can reach their customer care department at (800) 367-7629.

[Leah]

It distresses me to read this. I eat corn tortillas corn Chex, and chips also..... but I don't worry too much about cross contamination. There is bread all over my toaster and cutting board! I'm lucky that it doesn't seem to bother me.

Leah

[tex]

Hi Zizzle,

I would suspect that grinding may make fiber slightly less abrasive (at a macroscopic level), but on a microscopic level (which is what matters the most to a cell in the mucosa of the intestines), it should make little difference. That's just my opinion.

Why should I be concerned about BT corn? I'm not a worm ( ), and there's no evidence that those proteins adversely affect any other organisms.

Look at it this way, plants have various ways to prevent or minimize predation (they have to, because they can't just jump up and run away when something comes along to eat them). Without some sort of defense tactics, they would be exterminated (and I'm sure that's exactly what happened to many species since the beginning of life on this planet). Many of them did just fine, until hordes of insects, or herds of grazing animals came along. To successfully compete, they had to develop defenses. So they developed the ability to produce toxic lectins, some of which can actually kill some bugs, and make others ill. And some lectins are powerful enough that even large species (such as grazing animals) can only eat very limited amounts, without getting quite sick, so they learn to avoid those plants, unless they are starving. If they eat those plants because of impending starvation, then the lectins may hasten their demise, by means of dehydration, electrolyte loss, etc. For example, if you feed a ration containing 2 % or more of raw (unroasted) soybeans to cattle, they will spray uncontrollable diarrhea everywhere — even worse than a human who has MC, believe it or not. Properly roasted soy beans (or meal) are fine, because proper cooking destroys most of the lectins.

Where do you think the BT gene that was injected into corn DNA comes from? The BT proteins that kill certain insects are not synthetic, they come from a bacterium. Bacillus thuringiensis is an extremely common soil bacteria that can be found around the world. They just happen to produce certain specialized proteins (known as BT proteins), that selectively kill certain types of insects without affecting other living organisms. BT proteins have been used for many years as biological controls for certain insect pests, especially in organic food production.

In fact, the spores and crystalline insecticidal proteins produced by B. thuringiensis have been used in crop production for almost a 100 years, now. The organic food industry has been using them for over 50 years. All that Monsanto did was to move the gene from the bacteria into corn seed, so that the plant would produce the same proteins, without the need for spraying the crop with the proteins produced by the bacteria.

Plants often develop symbiotic relationships with bacteria (or even with certain insects), in order to bolster their defenses against certain predators. Every time we eat vegetable "X" there's no telling how many different kinds of such bacteria, spores, fungi, etc., we are ingesting.

To expand on the concept on which John Donne's poem No man is an island is based — just like man, no plant is an island, either. All successful plants became successful by taking advantage of any and all environmental benefits they could conjure up, to give them a leg up on the competition, and to bolster their defenses against their most troublesome predators. Anytime we eat a plant, we are ingesting a small ecosystem of sorts, not just a simple plant that contains only plant DNA.

So no, I don't worry about BT corn, because nature is not, nor has it ever been, as simple as most people picture it. Nature is incredibly complex, and the more we learn about it, the more complexity we discover. There's no telling how many additional layers of complexity, in increasing orders of magnitude, actually exist in the natural world, but we are totally oblivious of them, because of our limited technological abilities.

I've never heard of Utz, but you have highlighted the primary problem with most GF products and other allergen-excluding products, and this also applies to many organic products. Most companies' market share for these individual products is simply not large enough to justify a dedicated production line for each product.

The bottom line is that based on my own experience in the food corn business, and grain-cleaning business, my confidence in the ability of most manufacturers to keep gluten out of corn is several orders of magnitude above my confidence in their ability to keep gluten out of any other grain, simply because corn is much, much easier to clean, using conventional grain-cleaning equipment, than any other grain (especially rice). But rice is rarely contaminated by gluten, because it's traditionally grown where wheat, barley, or rye are not commonly grown, and it's stored in dedicated elevators, that have never held other grains.

As far as corn chips are concerned, there is virtually zero chance that gluten can end up in corn chips made by Frito-Lay, for example. The fields in which their corn is grown only grow corn, the equipment that is used to harvest and transport the corn only handles corn, and the elevators in which it is stored, have never held anything other than corn. And they own the storage facilities, so they know exactly what is in there, and they don't have to take anyone else's word on the quality of grain that goes into their products.

And, they know how to clean grain, so that even if someone were to somehow include some wheat, rye, or barley in a load of corn, it wouldn't make it past the first seedcleaner, let alone the gravity tables that are used for the final cleaning in all food corn processing plants. But of course, none of this does much good, if cross-contamination is allowed in the final production process, as obviously happens with some companies.

So no, I don't worry about gluten in corn chips, because I don't eat chips produced in small organically-certified facilities, where all sorts of other snacks are produced. Utz Foods, for example, is apparently contaminating their GF products in the final stages of production, by allowing cross-contamination when switching between products. That's sad, and totally unnecessary.

Tex

[birdlover3]

I just read this thread. If fiber is not the answer to resolving "C", what does one do?