Entocort and the immune system
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Entocort and the immune system
Because Entocort weekens the immune system, do you take anything to help combat this? IF so, what?
Joanne
"A Journey Of A Thousand Miles Must Begin With A Single Step"
"A Journey Of A Thousand Miles Must Begin With A Single Step"
That's probably the single most effective way to boost the immune system (other than doing it the natural way by getting more sun exposure).Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
It has been found that if you take 10,000 IU of vitamin A daily with your D there is a synergistic effect to make the D more bioavailable for your body to use. I could never get my D level up high enough even with 10,000 IU of D daily till I started adding the A.
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmast ... -diseases/
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmast ... -diseases/
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost
Robert Frost
While I'm a huge fan of most of Dr. Price's work, the opinion that you referenced was written in 1912, and unfortunately, since then researchers have discovered that it's seriously flawed. Here's the current view of the relationship between Vitamin A and Vitamin D, from the Vitamin D Council website:KD wrote:It has been found that if you take 10,000 IU of vitamin A daily with your D there is a synergistic effect to make the D more bioavailable for your body to use.
“Although activated vitamin D and vitamin A signal through common cofactors, they compete for each other’s function. Retinoic acid antagonizes the action of vitamin D and its active metabolite. In humans, even the vitamin A in a single serving of liver impairs vitamin D’s rapid intestinal calcium response. In a dietary intake study, Oh et al found that a high retinol intake completely thwarted vitamin D’s otherwise protective effect on distal colorectal adenoma, and they found a clear relationship between vitamin D and vitamin A intakes, as the women in the highest quintile of vitamin D intake ingested around 10,000 IU/d of retinol.”
“Furthermore, the consumption of preformed retinol — even in amounts consumed by many Americans in both multivitamins and cod liver oil — may cause bone toxicity in individuals with inadequate vitamin D status. Women in the highest quintile of total vitamin A intake have a 1.5-times elevated risk of hip fracture. Indeed, a recent Cochrane Review found that vitamin A supplements increased the total mortality rate by 16%, perhaps through antagonism of vitamin D. Another recent Cochrane Review concluded that although vitamin A significantly reduced the incidence of acute lower respiratory tract infections in children with low intake of retinol, as occurs in the Third World, it appears to increase the risk and/or worsen the clinical course in children in developed countries.”
The red emphasis is mine.Now a brand new study confirms the detrimental effects of vitamin A in the USA and certainly in cod liver oil countries in Scandinavia. Dr Ting-Yuan Cheng and Marian Neuhouser of the University of Washington looked at the interaction of vitamin D with vitamin A in lung cancer in the USA.
Cheng TY, Neuhouser ML. Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D, vitamin A, and lung cancer mortality in the US population: a potential nutrient-nutrient interaction. Cancer Causes Control. 2012 Sep;23(9):1557-65. Epub 2012 Jul 25.
Expectedly, they found that “vitamin D sufficiency was associated with a 50-70% decrease in lung cancer mortality among nonsmokers.” Unexpectedly, to most, they found, “These beneficial associations were not observed among those with high concentrations of circulating vitamin A or users of vitamin A dietary supplements.” However, the statistical evidence of effect modification was limited by the few lung cancer deaths in their cohort.
They also found that the majority of Americans had elevated levels of retinyl esters and that 29% of Americans have potentially toxic levels. Vitamin A is found in so many foods that the thousands of ugs per day of vitamin A that Professor Alfred Hess warned about many years ago is easily obtained from diet alone. However, Americans may ingest as many as 5,000 ug/day due to diet, cod liver oil, and multivitamins containing retinyl acetate or retinyl palmitate. Some people even take pure vitamin A supplements.
In the undeveloped world, vitamin A food fortification, varied diets, and colorful vegetables are rare among people subsisting on a single carbohydrate source (rice, wheat, etc.), and vitamin A deficiency is common. However, in developed countries, as Drs. Cheng and Neuhouser showed, the problem is sub-clinical vitamin A toxicity, probably working by countering the effects of vitamin D.
Vitamin D, vitamin A, and lung cancer in the USA
The bottom line is that vitamin A in the form of beta carotene is probably safe, but significant amounts of the retinyl-associated forms of vitamin A are contraindicated, especially for someone who has an IBD, or any other autoimmune disease. This issue is discussed (based on a different medical research reference) on pages 126 and 192 of my book, for anyone who has a copy, and wants to check the details.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
To contradict all of your quotes more recent research disagrees with all of your points! These researchers believe the significant deficiency in vitamin D is also represented by a converse deficiency in most people of vitamin A also!! As many as 50%of people are unable to convert carotenes to usable vitamin A. Please read the entire news letter. It will enlighten you and may change your mind!!
http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/pdf ... AK_web.pdf
http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/pdf ... AK_web.pdf
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost
Robert Frost
Well, first off, I don't understand why you think that sales pitch disguised as a series of scientific articles is based on more recent research when (unless I overlooked them all) not a single medical research reference is even cited. There's page after page of opinion, but no published research citations are listed. Maybe they're hidden in the text somewhere, because unfortunately I have a lot to do today, so I don't have time to read all that, but legitimate (and objective) scientists, don't hide their references when writing articles based on research.
The author of the first couple of articles, of course, is the founder of Allergy Research Group, and his job is to sell the supplements they manufacture. While that's an admirable goal, and as far as I'm aware, they sell good products — if he's going to use quasi-scientific articles to sell his products, then he should base his claims on peer-reviewed, published research, rather than trying to present his opinions as if they have actually been substantiated. He says, for example, "The research is stunningly clear: . . .". It is? Then why didn't he cite the research if it actually exists?
If you're going to go to the trouble to contradict someone's post on this board, when the post includes peer-reviewed, published medical research references, then you'd better have peer-reviewed, published medical research references to back up your claims. Otherwise it's hearsay. And on this board, we definitely don't consider ads written to promote the sale of supplements as evidence of anything more than what they actually are — ads written to promote the sale of supplements.
Have you given any thought to the possibility that all the retinol you are taking may be the reason why you are having problems attaining and maintaining remission from MC? From my book:
7. DePaolo, R. W., Abadie, V., Tang, F., Fehlner-Peach, H., Hall J. A., Wang, W., . . . Jabri, B. (2011). Co-adjuvant effects of retinoic acid and IL-15 induce inflammatory immunity to dietary antigens. Nature, 471(7337), 220–224. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21307853
Here's a link to the full article, if you want to read it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076739/
Tex
The author of the first couple of articles, of course, is the founder of Allergy Research Group, and his job is to sell the supplements they manufacture. While that's an admirable goal, and as far as I'm aware, they sell good products — if he's going to use quasi-scientific articles to sell his products, then he should base his claims on peer-reviewed, published research, rather than trying to present his opinions as if they have actually been substantiated. He says, for example, "The research is stunningly clear: . . .". It is? Then why didn't he cite the research if it actually exists?
If you're going to go to the trouble to contradict someone's post on this board, when the post includes peer-reviewed, published medical research references, then you'd better have peer-reviewed, published medical research references to back up your claims. Otherwise it's hearsay. And on this board, we definitely don't consider ads written to promote the sale of supplements as evidence of anything more than what they actually are — ads written to promote the sale of supplements.
Have you given any thought to the possibility that all the retinol you are taking may be the reason why you are having problems attaining and maintaining remission from MC? From my book:
Here is the reference cited in that quote, and note that this research was published after the newsletter that you cited was published (since you chose to emphasize "more recent research").Recent research has shown that a metabolite of vitamin A, retinoic acid, together with interleukin-15 (IL-15) in the intestines of patients with celiac disease, may be responsible for generating the inflammation that results in celiac disease.7 Since the problem does not occur if IL-15 is absent, it has been proposed that developing ways to block IL-15 may be an effective approach for preventing and treating gluten sensitivity. Like retinoic acid, isotretinoin is a first-generation retinoid, and it is the active ingredient in the product Accutane and other medications used in the treatment in acne, that have been associated with the development of inflammatory bowel disease. Obviously, this may have implications for both the prevention and treatment of microscopic colitis, as well.
This also implies that until a safe and effective way to block IL-15 is developed, if we take a vitamin A supplement, we should minimize the retinol form that is found in many vitamins. Instead, our vitamin A supplementation should be limited to the beta-carotene form, whenever possible. It appears that the esters of retinol may also be a problem.
7. DePaolo, R. W., Abadie, V., Tang, F., Fehlner-Peach, H., Hall J. A., Wang, W., . . . Jabri, B. (2011). Co-adjuvant effects of retinoic acid and IL-15 induce inflammatory immunity to dietary antigens. Nature, 471(7337), 220–224. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21307853
Here's a link to the full article, if you want to read it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076739/
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Wow Tex,
Is it really necessary to go into your attack dog mode. I thought you had mellowed in the last 4 years. It is this behavior of yours that chased me away from this site 4 years ago!! You have your opinions based on the research articles you have read, I have mine.
First of all the newsletter I posted is NOT an advertisement for supplements. It is a review of literature and the opinion of scientists that work for a supplement company This is one of the Supplement companies that actually does peer reviewed research. Had you read the information you would have learned this. The hard copy of the newsletter I have has many attached references. I do not know why the online version does not. Just like drug companies some of the better supplement companies also do research but the money does not flow in like drug companies so smaller samples are used. If this company was trying to "sell" products it seems they would target those which they make great profits, they sell Vitamin A wholesale for less than $4.00 per bottle, they are really going to see the profits fly in at that price. I work with a number of vitamin manufactures for a living and do lots of research on my own before I sell or reccomend products. If I recall you are not at all a medical professional and read lots but do not practice the profession of Medicine. My husband and I are licensed Medical professionals who live this every day and work with improving the health of hundreds of happy patients.
Second, the research I posted is not from 1920 if you look at the references they were from 2007, and 2008. Just because the concept was initiated by Weston Price in the 1920's it does not invalidate the information. As was pointed out in the ARG newsletter, most people do not eat foods rich in Vitamin A any more and it is imperative for all of the fat soluble vitamins to work together. This is a quote from the Vitamin D council that you sited for your Rant against my recommendations "Vitamin A and vitamin D work together to help your “genetic code” work properly. If you don’t have enough vitamin A, vitamin D may not be able to perform this function properly. On the other hand, research also shows that if you have too much vitamin A, vitamin D does not work as well. At this time, however, researchers don’t know how much vitamin D you need compared to how much vitamin A you need."
Your reccomendation of beta carotene is not supported, because as many as 50% of people are unable to convert it to its usable source.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2001/010323.htm
The 2 research papers you posted from pub med are related to High dose retinoic acid as in the prescription Acutane, not low dose vitamin supplementation in the 10,000 IU range I suggested.
You need to remember there are different schools of thought on many research topics and you are not always right. I completely differ from you on this subject but it does not make me wrong. I have a problem with absorption of Calcium and Vitamin D and was demonstrated in numerous tests I had with my Endocrinologist. I even take a prescription dose every day of Calcitriol. I was unable to raise my Vitamin D level to the most therapeutic for me until I added Vitamin A to my regime. Vitamin A has nothing to do with my inability to obtain remission since in the last 6 weeks I actually have obtained remission related to other food intolerances. I continue to take a low dose of vitamin A as I do not have good sources in my diet and will continue to recommend to my patients and others on this site. They can make their own decisions.
Is it really necessary to go into your attack dog mode. I thought you had mellowed in the last 4 years. It is this behavior of yours that chased me away from this site 4 years ago!! You have your opinions based on the research articles you have read, I have mine.
First of all the newsletter I posted is NOT an advertisement for supplements. It is a review of literature and the opinion of scientists that work for a supplement company This is one of the Supplement companies that actually does peer reviewed research. Had you read the information you would have learned this. The hard copy of the newsletter I have has many attached references. I do not know why the online version does not. Just like drug companies some of the better supplement companies also do research but the money does not flow in like drug companies so smaller samples are used. If this company was trying to "sell" products it seems they would target those which they make great profits, they sell Vitamin A wholesale for less than $4.00 per bottle, they are really going to see the profits fly in at that price. I work with a number of vitamin manufactures for a living and do lots of research on my own before I sell or reccomend products. If I recall you are not at all a medical professional and read lots but do not practice the profession of Medicine. My husband and I are licensed Medical professionals who live this every day and work with improving the health of hundreds of happy patients.
Second, the research I posted is not from 1920 if you look at the references they were from 2007, and 2008. Just because the concept was initiated by Weston Price in the 1920's it does not invalidate the information. As was pointed out in the ARG newsletter, most people do not eat foods rich in Vitamin A any more and it is imperative for all of the fat soluble vitamins to work together. This is a quote from the Vitamin D council that you sited for your Rant against my recommendations "Vitamin A and vitamin D work together to help your “genetic code” work properly. If you don’t have enough vitamin A, vitamin D may not be able to perform this function properly. On the other hand, research also shows that if you have too much vitamin A, vitamin D does not work as well. At this time, however, researchers don’t know how much vitamin D you need compared to how much vitamin A you need."
Your reccomendation of beta carotene is not supported, because as many as 50% of people are unable to convert it to its usable source.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2001/010323.htm
The 2 research papers you posted from pub med are related to High dose retinoic acid as in the prescription Acutane, not low dose vitamin supplementation in the 10,000 IU range I suggested.
You need to remember there are different schools of thought on many research topics and you are not always right. I completely differ from you on this subject but it does not make me wrong. I have a problem with absorption of Calcium and Vitamin D and was demonstrated in numerous tests I had with my Endocrinologist. I even take a prescription dose every day of Calcitriol. I was unable to raise my Vitamin D level to the most therapeutic for me until I added Vitamin A to my regime. Vitamin A has nothing to do with my inability to obtain remission since in the last 6 weeks I actually have obtained remission related to other food intolerances. I continue to take a low dose of vitamin A as I do not have good sources in my diet and will continue to recommend to my patients and others on this site. They can make their own decisions.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost
Robert Frost
Leah,
Nu-Skin vitamins are very expensive and I do not see any special benefit to their products. I have made it a moral policy to not become involved in multi level marketing ploys no matter how good a product is. I do not agree with the way those companies make money. To me it is kind of like the the pimp and the prostitute!! sorry to be so frank but that is my personal opinion. There are much better products out there without financial commitments for you. I like Vitamin Research Products VRP, Pur Encapsulations, Allergy Research Group, Integrative Therapeutics, Physiologics. Many of these products are only available through a physician's office but I think many of them are available on the internet.
Nu-Skin vitamins are very expensive and I do not see any special benefit to their products. I have made it a moral policy to not become involved in multi level marketing ploys no matter how good a product is. I do not agree with the way those companies make money. To me it is kind of like the the pimp and the prostitute!! sorry to be so frank but that is my personal opinion. There are much better products out there without financial commitments for you. I like Vitamin Research Products VRP, Pur Encapsulations, Allergy Research Group, Integrative Therapeutics, Physiologics. Many of these products are only available through a physician's office but I think many of them are available on the internet.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost
Robert Frost
Hi KD,
You are clearly mistaken about me being in "attack dog mode", because if I were, you would now be in a tree, screaming for help. Since you're not, you can rest assured that you misinterpreted my post.
Since you brought up your experience the first time you were here (several years ago), let's just review that little peccadillo, so that no one has to wonder what happened. In your response to one of my posts, you made the absurd (dumb) claim that aspirin is not an NSAID, which got you into an argument with myself and several other members. You threw a childish tantrum and I should have removed your membership and banned you on the spot, but I chose to give you a second chance. Did I make a mistake by doing that?
It's clear that you enjoy being confrontational, and now you've established a history of getting into trouble by contradicting my posts with radical claims. Let's get one thing clear — there are a lot of health issues for which clear choices are not available, and it's certainly OK to have differences of opinion on them. We all have our own opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that.
There is, however, something wrong with recommending to other members of this board to take large amounts of retinol, pretending that it's a safe and healthful choice. Even the National Institutes of Health website for professionals shows 10,000 IU (3,000 mcg retinol activity equivalents, or RAE) to be the Tolerable Upper Intake Level for retinol. Supplemental doses in that range and above can result in toxic effects such as liver damage, decreased bone density, and other adverse health events. And that limit was developed for the general population, not someone who has an IBD. People who have IBDs have additional vulnerabilities.
As I pointed out in the quote from my book, until better information becomes available, the interaction of IL-15 and retinol to produce intestinal inflammation, trumps all other claims about the benefits of retinol, for most people who have MC. Therefore, retinol intake should be limited by anyone who has (or is at risk of developing) an IBD, including celiac disease.
Note that any part of a vitamin A supplement that is in the form of beta-carotene is safe, and does not add to the retinol risk. So that everyone understands, for conversion purposes, supplemental beta-carotene converts to retinol at roughly a 2 to 1 rate. IOW, it takes approximately 2 units of supplemental beta-carotene to generate 1 unit of RAE. Conversion rates are vastly different for dietary beta-carotene, and conversion rates are typically far lower. While it may well be true that some people are unable to effectively convert beta-carotene into retinol, that doesn't make taking retinol any safer. Since most people get plenty of vitamin A from their diet anyway, the prudent thing to do is to limit our retinol intake to roughly 900 (700 for women) RAE, which in retinol supplements would convert to roughly 2500 IU. In addition to that you can safely take all the beta-carotene you want (whether you feel that you are utilizing it or not).
Now if you wish to prove how wrong I am by jeopardizing your own health, that's your choice, and I applaud you for being willing to use yourself as your own guinea pig (we all do that from time to time
). And since you are now down to a reasonable dose, that should be safe, and it may be why you are finally seeing some relief from your MC symptoms. But I am simply not going to allow you to preach such potentially harmful BS on this site (such as recommending high doses of retinol), because on this board, we are trying to control the inflammation, not exacerbate it.
Is that clear? If it isn't clear, then please say so because I don't have all the time in the world to waste arguing with you on a regular basis, and if you persist in pursuing this type of counterproductive behavior
you will force me to correct the mistake I made about 4 years ago.
Tex
P. S. I don't care if you're married to a Voodoo priest, and you're a witchdoctor yourself. Get over that. You're no better than anyone else here. On this board, we're all students of microscopic colitis, and everyone here has impressive credentials.
You are clearly mistaken about me being in "attack dog mode", because if I were, you would now be in a tree, screaming for help. Since you're not, you can rest assured that you misinterpreted my post.
Since you brought up your experience the first time you were here (several years ago), let's just review that little peccadillo, so that no one has to wonder what happened. In your response to one of my posts, you made the absurd (dumb) claim that aspirin is not an NSAID, which got you into an argument with myself and several other members. You threw a childish tantrum and I should have removed your membership and banned you on the spot, but I chose to give you a second chance. Did I make a mistake by doing that?
It's clear that you enjoy being confrontational, and now you've established a history of getting into trouble by contradicting my posts with radical claims. Let's get one thing clear — there are a lot of health issues for which clear choices are not available, and it's certainly OK to have differences of opinion on them. We all have our own opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that.
There is, however, something wrong with recommending to other members of this board to take large amounts of retinol, pretending that it's a safe and healthful choice. Even the National Institutes of Health website for professionals shows 10,000 IU (3,000 mcg retinol activity equivalents, or RAE) to be the Tolerable Upper Intake Level for retinol. Supplemental doses in that range and above can result in toxic effects such as liver damage, decreased bone density, and other adverse health events. And that limit was developed for the general population, not someone who has an IBD. People who have IBDs have additional vulnerabilities.
As I pointed out in the quote from my book, until better information becomes available, the interaction of IL-15 and retinol to produce intestinal inflammation, trumps all other claims about the benefits of retinol, for most people who have MC. Therefore, retinol intake should be limited by anyone who has (or is at risk of developing) an IBD, including celiac disease.
Note that any part of a vitamin A supplement that is in the form of beta-carotene is safe, and does not add to the retinol risk. So that everyone understands, for conversion purposes, supplemental beta-carotene converts to retinol at roughly a 2 to 1 rate. IOW, it takes approximately 2 units of supplemental beta-carotene to generate 1 unit of RAE. Conversion rates are vastly different for dietary beta-carotene, and conversion rates are typically far lower. While it may well be true that some people are unable to effectively convert beta-carotene into retinol, that doesn't make taking retinol any safer. Since most people get plenty of vitamin A from their diet anyway, the prudent thing to do is to limit our retinol intake to roughly 900 (700 for women) RAE, which in retinol supplements would convert to roughly 2500 IU. In addition to that you can safely take all the beta-carotene you want (whether you feel that you are utilizing it or not).
Now if you wish to prove how wrong I am by jeopardizing your own health, that's your choice, and I applaud you for being willing to use yourself as your own guinea pig (we all do that from time to time
). And since you are now down to a reasonable dose, that should be safe, and it may be why you are finally seeing some relief from your MC symptoms. But I am simply not going to allow you to preach such potentially harmful BS on this site (such as recommending high doses of retinol), because on this board, we are trying to control the inflammation, not exacerbate it.Is that clear? If it isn't clear, then please say so because I don't have all the time in the world to waste arguing with you on a regular basis, and if you persist in pursuing this type of counterproductive behavior
you will force me to correct the mistake I made about 4 years ago.Tex
P. S. I don't care if you're married to a Voodoo priest, and you're a witchdoctor yourself. Get over that. You're no better than anyone else here. On this board, we're all students of microscopic colitis, and everyone here has impressive credentials.
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.