I did Entrolab last year in February, and was re-acting to gluten, soy, tuna, and oats.
In November and December I started belching again and having bad heartburn (which were my first symptoms when I had gotten glutened). I had started a limited diet eating 4 oz protein 3 x a day (chicken, turkey, or white fish but mostly turkey), veggies, egg whites, yogurt and fruit in order to lose weight. I was eating really clean and by in large organic. Along with those symptoms, I started having severe, esophageal spasms! No real D tho.
I went to the family doctor last week and he gave me a PPI (pantoprazole). He said I needed it to calm the spasms down... Against my better judgement, I took the PPI for about 4-5 days and it really has calmed things down. I also stopped eating the chicken, turkey, and fish. I honestly don't know if I was re-acting to either chicken, turkey, or fish or possibly yogurt?
Has anyone else developed new intolerances after the you've done the entrolab test? Especially this soon? I have been in remission since I gave up the foods I had tested positive for..
Also, I know PPIs are bad, but I didn't have any bad symptoms for those few days, but I plan not to take them unless the spasms come back..He said I had too much acid.. I had been taking apple cider vinegar before going to him.. but it wasn't helping.
Should I get re-tested? Any thoughts?
would like your opinions...
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
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ladyathome
- Adélie Penguin
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- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:08 am
Well, it's possible that you might be sensitive to one or more of the foods in your diet, but normally, if we have been in remission for at least 2 or 3 months (or more), the foods in our diet are probably safe (secondary food sensitivity problems usually show up within a couple of months after reaching remission). Of course, with this disease, virtually nothing is impossible, and there are exceptions to every rule.h
This is just a guess, and in no way should be construed as proven medical advice, but IMO those symptoms, including esophageal spasms, are often caused by mast cell degranulation. IOW, I'm guessing that you may have been having a histamine-based reaction to the foods you were eating, because most of them (chicken, fish, yogurt) are prone to containing a relatively high level of histamines.
If I were in that situation, I would either change to lower-histamine meats, or make sure that the chicken and fish are very fresh (IOW, either fresh or frozen, but not stored in the refrigerator for a few days after thawing). And I would skip the yogurt, or at least minimize it, especially if those symptoms were still present. I would also take one or more antihistamines, and I would expect the diet changes together with the use of an antihistamine to bring a dramatic improvement within a day or so. I'm talking about an ordinary, over-the-counter type 1 antihistamine, such as Claritin, Allegra, Zyrtec, Benedryl, etc. If these changes don't bring improvement within a day or 2, then it might be worth a try to use an H2 blocker instead of (or in addition to) the H1 antihistamine. Tagamet and Zantac are examples of H2 type antihistamines. If neither type seems to help, then histamines are probably not the problem.
It's possible that the reason why those symptoms are just now developing is because IBDs tend to deplete diamine oxidase (DAO), and they also tend to compromise the body's ability to produce DAO, so we eventually become deficient in DAO. One of DAO's primary functions is to purge the body of left-over (unused) histamine. Without sufficient DAO, histamine levels tend to build up, and cause food-based symptoms.
It also appears to me (and again, this is just a guess based on our experiences on this board) that once we develop MC, our ability to produce adequate amounts of DAO may become permanently compromised, just as our ability to produce certain enzymes that are used to digest sugars seems to become permanently compromised in some/many cases.
Most doctors are confused about how histamine affects the digestive system, and they typically confuse a mast cell activation problem for excess acid and they mistakenly prescribe a PPI. And the PPI even seems to help, because as it suppresses stomach acid, our throat no longer experiences any burning sensation, or spasms, but believe it or not, the reflux is still there — we just can't feel it, with the acid neutralized.
Yes, there may be excess acid because of a mast cell activation problem, but the acid is produced because of a mast cell problem, not because our stomach suddenly arbitrarily decided that it should begin to produce more acid. Typically, as we get older, our stomach produces less acid, not more.
Normally, when we begin to eat a meal, the body releases histamine and uses it as a messenger to tell the parietal cells in the stomach to begin producing more acid (because food is on the way). But if the food is also loaded with histamines, and we are short on DAO, and/or our mast cells are hypersensitive and degranulating inappropriately (known as mast cell activation disorder, or MCAD), then way too much histamine is available and it tends to disrupt digestion. If a medication is called for, a better choice (by the doctor) would be an H2 antihistamine, because an H2 blocker will reduce the acid without causing the permanent damage to the parietal cells of the stomach, that so often results from long-term PPI use.
PPIs actually cause a GERD problem, if they are taken long enough, and some of us are much more vulnerable than others. The only time I ever had a problem with GERD was after my doctor in the hospital insisted that I would have to take a PPI for a few days, or get back on a ventilator, when I was recovering from surgery. After I was discharged from the hospital, I discovered that I had a problem with GERD, and it took almost 6 months to get rid of it, so I hope that you haven't taken a PPI long enough to cause that problem.
The C Panel test at EnteroLab would pinpoint any sensitivity to the 11 foods that are tested, that involve the production of antibodies, but the test might not detect mast cell issues with those foods.
Good luck with this, and I hope that you can track down the problem quickly.
Tex
This is just a guess, and in no way should be construed as proven medical advice, but IMO those symptoms, including esophageal spasms, are often caused by mast cell degranulation. IOW, I'm guessing that you may have been having a histamine-based reaction to the foods you were eating, because most of them (chicken, fish, yogurt) are prone to containing a relatively high level of histamines.
If I were in that situation, I would either change to lower-histamine meats, or make sure that the chicken and fish are very fresh (IOW, either fresh or frozen, but not stored in the refrigerator for a few days after thawing). And I would skip the yogurt, or at least minimize it, especially if those symptoms were still present. I would also take one or more antihistamines, and I would expect the diet changes together with the use of an antihistamine to bring a dramatic improvement within a day or so. I'm talking about an ordinary, over-the-counter type 1 antihistamine, such as Claritin, Allegra, Zyrtec, Benedryl, etc. If these changes don't bring improvement within a day or 2, then it might be worth a try to use an H2 blocker instead of (or in addition to) the H1 antihistamine. Tagamet and Zantac are examples of H2 type antihistamines. If neither type seems to help, then histamines are probably not the problem.
It's possible that the reason why those symptoms are just now developing is because IBDs tend to deplete diamine oxidase (DAO), and they also tend to compromise the body's ability to produce DAO, so we eventually become deficient in DAO. One of DAO's primary functions is to purge the body of left-over (unused) histamine. Without sufficient DAO, histamine levels tend to build up, and cause food-based symptoms.
It also appears to me (and again, this is just a guess based on our experiences on this board) that once we develop MC, our ability to produce adequate amounts of DAO may become permanently compromised, just as our ability to produce certain enzymes that are used to digest sugars seems to become permanently compromised in some/many cases.
Most doctors are confused about how histamine affects the digestive system, and they typically confuse a mast cell activation problem for excess acid and they mistakenly prescribe a PPI. And the PPI even seems to help, because as it suppresses stomach acid, our throat no longer experiences any burning sensation, or spasms, but believe it or not, the reflux is still there — we just can't feel it, with the acid neutralized.
Yes, there may be excess acid because of a mast cell activation problem, but the acid is produced because of a mast cell problem, not because our stomach suddenly arbitrarily decided that it should begin to produce more acid. Typically, as we get older, our stomach produces less acid, not more.
Normally, when we begin to eat a meal, the body releases histamine and uses it as a messenger to tell the parietal cells in the stomach to begin producing more acid (because food is on the way). But if the food is also loaded with histamines, and we are short on DAO, and/or our mast cells are hypersensitive and degranulating inappropriately (known as mast cell activation disorder, or MCAD), then way too much histamine is available and it tends to disrupt digestion. If a medication is called for, a better choice (by the doctor) would be an H2 antihistamine, because an H2 blocker will reduce the acid without causing the permanent damage to the parietal cells of the stomach, that so often results from long-term PPI use.
PPIs actually cause a GERD problem, if they are taken long enough, and some of us are much more vulnerable than others. The only time I ever had a problem with GERD was after my doctor in the hospital insisted that I would have to take a PPI for a few days, or get back on a ventilator, when I was recovering from surgery. After I was discharged from the hospital, I discovered that I had a problem with GERD, and it took almost 6 months to get rid of it, so I hope that you haven't taken a PPI long enough to cause that problem.
The C Panel test at EnteroLab would pinpoint any sensitivity to the 11 foods that are tested, that involve the production of antibodies, but the test might not detect mast cell issues with those foods.
Good luck with this, and I hope that you can track down the problem quickly.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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ladyathome
- Adélie Penguin
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:08 am
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ladyathome
- Adélie Penguin
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:08 am
I've never used a DAO supplement, such as histame, but I believe that quite a few other members here have.
Besides a DAO supplement and antihistamines, there's another option — products such as cromolyn sodium (Gastrocrom), that are mast cell stabilizers (IOW, they help to prevent unstable mast cells from degranulating and dumping histamine and other inflammatory agents). Note that cromolyn sodium will not have any significant effect on suppressing the problems caused by high-histamine foods in the diet — that requires an antihistamine (and avoiding high-histamine foods). Cromolyn sodium is primarily for mast cell issues caused by the inappropriate degranulation of mast cells (MCAD). It may help however, in the case of foods that promote the degranulation of mast cells, such as
Alcohol
Bananas
Chocolate
Eggs
Fish
Milk
Papayas
Pineapple
Shellfish
Strawberries
Tomatoes
Hopefully, some of the members who have experience with some of these supplements or medications will see your post and respond with their experiences and insight.
Tex
Besides a DAO supplement and antihistamines, there's another option — products such as cromolyn sodium (Gastrocrom), that are mast cell stabilizers (IOW, they help to prevent unstable mast cells from degranulating and dumping histamine and other inflammatory agents). Note that cromolyn sodium will not have any significant effect on suppressing the problems caused by high-histamine foods in the diet — that requires an antihistamine (and avoiding high-histamine foods). Cromolyn sodium is primarily for mast cell issues caused by the inappropriate degranulation of mast cells (MCAD). It may help however, in the case of foods that promote the degranulation of mast cells, such as
Alcohol
Bananas
Chocolate
Eggs
Fish
Milk
Papayas
Pineapple
Shellfish
Strawberries
Tomatoes
Hopefully, some of the members who have experience with some of these supplements or medications will see your post and respond with their experiences and insight.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8332
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Tex (and anyone else who may know)
I was reading the information on DAO for DAO products that are available in Aus
it had the following warning...
This product is not effective with immune system based food allergies, or with peanut, wheat gluten allergy symptoms
does this mean, if we ingest an ingredient that is PURELY a histamine aggrevant then yes, DAO and H1/H2 blockers will help to minimise symptoms
if we ingest an ingredient that is not histamine aggrevant, (it is a MC/immune system trigger) then DAO/histamine blockers will not help.
and if that is the case;
If you are having symptoms and a histamine blockers/DAO does not help, then you are ingesting something that is a MC trigger.
and there is a chance that it may not have been a MC trigger initially or when you may have had enterlab testing, for some reason it is a MC trigger now
(does this make sense)
I was reading the information on DAO for DAO products that are available in Aus
it had the following warning...
This product is not effective with immune system based food allergies, or with peanut, wheat gluten allergy symptoms
does this mean, if we ingest an ingredient that is PURELY a histamine aggrevant then yes, DAO and H1/H2 blockers will help to minimise symptoms
if we ingest an ingredient that is not histamine aggrevant, (it is a MC/immune system trigger) then DAO/histamine blockers will not help.
and if that is the case;
If you are having symptoms and a histamine blockers/DAO does not help, then you are ingesting something that is a MC trigger.
and there is a chance that it may not have been a MC trigger initially or when you may have had enterlab testing, for some reason it is a MC trigger now
(does this make sense)
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
Gabes,
I'm guessing that caveat is specifically directed at people who have life-threatening food allergies (that result in anaphylaxis), because those are IgE reactions, and they will occur before a DAO supplement would have time to purge any significant amount of histamine from the system. DAO (and DAO supplements) are relatively slow-acting. Besides, allergic reactions that result in anaphylactic symptoms involve the release of powerful cytokines and various other inflammatory agents that a DAO supplement will not even touch.
I think I see what you're saying, but remember that histame does not block histamine receptors (antihistamines do, of course). All that histame (or DAO) does is to remove unused histamine from circulation and purge it from the body, and that's a rather slow process. Until histamine is removed from circulation, it is still available to attach to histamine receptors and initiate additional inflammatory processes. But in the long run, DAO (or a DAO supplement) has a profound effect on residual histamine levels if they have been increasing due to a DAO deficiency.
So in regard to your specific question, yes, as far as I am aware, DAO (and DAO supplements) will only help to purge histamine from the body, and levels of other inflammatory agents will be basically unaffected. Bear in mind that there is a hitch with such blanket statements though, and that lies in the fact that if some of the histamine in circulation manages to attach to the proper histamine receptors, then by completing that circuit, the immune system will typically initiate additional inflammatory events. So in that sense, DAO (or DAO supplements) can help to suppress other types of inflammatory agents by taking that histamine out of circulation, before it can attach to a histamine receptor. It appears that this action in general is not nearly as effective though, as blocking histamine receptors, at least in the short term. That's why antihistamines bring a much faster (and more significant) response than a DAO supplement.
I hope I didn't misinterpret your point.
Tex
I'm guessing that caveat is specifically directed at people who have life-threatening food allergies (that result in anaphylaxis), because those are IgE reactions, and they will occur before a DAO supplement would have time to purge any significant amount of histamine from the system. DAO (and DAO supplements) are relatively slow-acting. Besides, allergic reactions that result in anaphylactic symptoms involve the release of powerful cytokines and various other inflammatory agents that a DAO supplement will not even touch.
I think I see what you're saying, but remember that histame does not block histamine receptors (antihistamines do, of course). All that histame (or DAO) does is to remove unused histamine from circulation and purge it from the body, and that's a rather slow process. Until histamine is removed from circulation, it is still available to attach to histamine receptors and initiate additional inflammatory processes. But in the long run, DAO (or a DAO supplement) has a profound effect on residual histamine levels if they have been increasing due to a DAO deficiency.
So in regard to your specific question, yes, as far as I am aware, DAO (and DAO supplements) will only help to purge histamine from the body, and levels of other inflammatory agents will be basically unaffected. Bear in mind that there is a hitch with such blanket statements though, and that lies in the fact that if some of the histamine in circulation manages to attach to the proper histamine receptors, then by completing that circuit, the immune system will typically initiate additional inflammatory events. So in that sense, DAO (or DAO supplements) can help to suppress other types of inflammatory agents by taking that histamine out of circulation, before it can attach to a histamine receptor. It appears that this action in general is not nearly as effective though, as blocking histamine receptors, at least in the short term. That's why antihistamines bring a much faster (and more significant) response than a DAO supplement.
Or maybe the right histamine blocker (if it exists) just hasn't been found/tried, because for some reason or other, some antihistamines don't seem to work as well as others for some of us, just as certain other types of medications don't work the same way for everyone. But I agree with you that in most cases (maybe all cases), an antihistamine/DAO supplement combination is not going to make up for a compromised diet. Similar to taking a corticosteroid, an antihistamine may be able to overcome small amounts of certain inflammatory foods (in some cases), but it probably will not be able to overcome significant amounts of those foods, especially gluten.Gabes wrote:and if that is the case;
If you are having symptoms and a histamine blockers/DAO does not help, then you are ingesting something that is a MC trigger.
and there is a chance that it may not have been a MC trigger initially or when you may have had enterlab testing, for some reason it is a MC trigger now
I hope I didn't misinterpret your point.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8332
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Your answer was 'spot on ' for the queries that I was pondering.....
(Bit scary that you can understand gabe speak!!!!
)
minimising (ideally eliminating ) as much as possible the consumption of /contact with inflammation causing ingredients /activities is the best long term option.
(Easier said than done...)
(Bit scary that you can understand gabe speak!!!!
) minimising (ideally eliminating ) as much as possible the consumption of /contact with inflammation causing ingredients /activities is the best long term option.
(Easier said than done...)
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
I was thinking the same thing.Gabes wrote:(Bit scary that you can understand gabe speak!!!!
I totally agree.Gabes wrote:minimising (ideally eliminating ) as much as possible the consumption of /contact with inflammation causing ingredients /activities is the best long term option.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.