I have been informed through this forum about the role of mast cells in MC. I have been wondering if this was an issue for me. I had an incident with red wine that made me think it could be. I've not had any red wine for some time since I did feel it may cause me problems. But I had a glass a few evenings ago. That night I woke with a headache. The next morning I still had a slight headache but also my throat ached. Not like a scratchy sore throat but like there was lymph tissue inflammation. By early afternoon I decided to take a Zyrtec and within an hour my symptoms were gone and did not return. So it seemed clear to me that it was a histamine event probably from the wine.
So that got me thinking and googling. I discovered that copper is a cofactor for DAO. If you are deficient in copper then you will probably lack DAO. I had a Spectracell micronutrient test last April which showed me deficient in copper. I was somewhat low in all minerals tested except for selenium but I was deficient in copper. I've also learned that low copper is one of the symptoms of celiac. So It seems to me that it is possible that intolerance to histamine with MC may be the result of a DAO deficiency secondary to copper deficiency. A copper deficiency which may have resulted from the MC and malabsorption. Am I oversimplifying?
I wanted to pass this on and get anyone's feedback or experience with copper.
Copper and DAO
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Copper and DAO
LC diagnosed July 2014
Yes, that's true that a copper deficiency leads to a DAO deficiency. But most of us do not have a copper deficiency. The primary problem is that IBDs deplete DAO (just as they deplete vitamin D). That means that after we react for a while, many of us are very prone to developing a DAO deficiency. From page 169 in the book:
DAO-blocking foods
Tex
Here are those references:Research has shown that gastrointestinal diseases are commonly associated with a reduced DAO activity level. This has been shown to be the case, for example, for Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, and food allergies.11, 12, 13 So it would not be illogical to assume that there is probably an association between diminished DAO activity levels and microscopic colitis, as well.
The reason why your experiment showed such dramatic results is because certain foods antagonize DAO production, and alcohol is the worst, by far. Even normal people experience a DAO reduction after drinking alcohol, but for someone who has DAO issues to begin with (such as anyone who has an IBD) the effect is much more pronounced.11. Schmidt, W. U., Sattler, J., Hesterberg, R., Röher, H. D., Zoedler, T., Sitter, H., & Lorenz, W. (1990). Human intestinal diamine oxidase (DAO) activity in Crohn's disease: A new marker for disease assessment? Agents Actions, 30(1–2), 267–270. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2115243
12. Mennigen, R., Kusche, J., Streffer, C., & Krakamp, B. (1990). Diamine oxidase activities in the large bowel mucosa of ulcerative colitis patients. Agents Actions, 30(1–2), 264–266. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2115242
13. Raithel, M., Ulrich, P., Keymling, J., & Hahn, E. G. (1998). Analysis and topographical distribution of gut diamine oxidase activity in patients with food allergy. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 17(859), 258–261. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9928400
DAO-blocking foods
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
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In my case I was having histamine issues while my copper was very high,
High doses of magnesium and Vit C have worked really well to balance histamine. If D dominate, maybe use magnesium lotion or spray to get high doses with no risk of laxative effect.
If low on copper, be cautious having zinc.
High doses of magnesium and Vit C have worked really well to balance histamine. If D dominate, maybe use magnesium lotion or spray to get high doses with no risk of laxative effect.
If low on copper, be cautious having zinc.
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
I find it hard to see any pattern in what I can and cannot tolerate, which perhaps may be because when the histamine level is reached, I get a histamine reaction.
You can have a reaction due to very histamine rich food, or that you have stored on too much histamine or that you have eaten histamine trigger food. Is this correct?
What is the best way to see how sensitive one is? As I understand it, one can accumulate histamine by eating histamine-rich food.
Does this mean that you do not have to get a reaction directly when eating high histamine foods, but it may come at a later time when "the cup overflows"
Is histamine trigger foods a better indicator if you have problems than high histamine food?
What is the best strategy for finding out if this is a problem and later attacking this problem?
Supplement with:
D3, magnesium, Vit C, Zinc, B6, B12
Try antihistamines both H1 and H2.
How long before seeing improvements?
How thus antihistamines work blocking symptoms, prevents inflammation or what happens?
Stress management
Thus DAO pills like DAOSin work?
http://www.sciotec.at/en/products/funct ... od/daosin/
Anything else?
Jonas
You can have a reaction due to very histamine rich food, or that you have stored on too much histamine or that you have eaten histamine trigger food. Is this correct?
What is the best way to see how sensitive one is? As I understand it, one can accumulate histamine by eating histamine-rich food.
Does this mean that you do not have to get a reaction directly when eating high histamine foods, but it may come at a later time when "the cup overflows"
Is histamine trigger foods a better indicator if you have problems than high histamine food?
What is the best strategy for finding out if this is a problem and later attacking this problem?
Supplement with:
D3, magnesium, Vit C, Zinc, B6, B12
Try antihistamines both H1 and H2.
How long before seeing improvements?
How thus antihistamines work blocking symptoms, prevents inflammation or what happens?
Stress management
Thus DAO pills like DAOSin work?
http://www.sciotec.at/en/products/funct ... od/daosin/
Anything else?
Jonas
Jonas, the cup overflow analogy is my understanding as well. I think in my case the red wine is very high in histamine and as Tex pointed out alcohol depletes DAO so my cup was primed to overflow. Now the reason, beyond the fact that I have LC, that I had an almost full cup which was likely to overflow with one glass of wine is what I'm trying to decipher here. I think it is because I'm deficient in copper. The micronutrient testing showed me to have adequate levels of Vit B6 and vit C, and B12. I had low but not deficient levels of zinc. My vit D level is above 50 and I supplement.
I understand that low DAO is associated with IBDs. But all I've seen in trying to research is just that...an association. Is the low DAO in IBDs secondary to the malabsorption of nutrients which are necessary for the proper functioning of DAO? If this is the case then it seems like a vicious cycle of low nutrients due to malabsorption causing low DAO, causing histamine reactions which increase inflammation and lead to continued malabsorption. Or is something else going on in the gut mucosa to lower the DAO apart from malabsorption of nutrients?
Gabes, I have decided to supplement Copper for a month at 2 mgs per day. I am a concerned because my zinc level was low but not deficient so I will also use 15mgs zinc as well. Before I was diagnosed and at the time of the micronutrient testing I was using a multi with that ratio of the two minerals only at half the quantity. It's interesting that you have a high copper issue. Doesn't that have something to do with methylation problems?
I understand that low DAO is associated with IBDs. But all I've seen in trying to research is just that...an association. Is the low DAO in IBDs secondary to the malabsorption of nutrients which are necessary for the proper functioning of DAO? If this is the case then it seems like a vicious cycle of low nutrients due to malabsorption causing low DAO, causing histamine reactions which increase inflammation and lead to continued malabsorption. Or is something else going on in the gut mucosa to lower the DAO apart from malabsorption of nutrients?
Gabes, I have decided to supplement Copper for a month at 2 mgs per day. I am a concerned because my zinc level was low but not deficient so I will also use 15mgs zinc as well. Before I was diagnosed and at the time of the micronutrient testing I was using a multi with that ratio of the two minerals only at half the quantity. It's interesting that you have a high copper issue. Doesn't that have something to do with methylation problems?
LC diagnosed July 2014
Jonas,
I agree with Gigi that what you wrote is correct. I believe that it's impossible to accurately determine whether high-histamine foods are a worse problem than foods that promote the degranulation of mast cells, because that probably depends on circumstances and individual situations. Remember that many drugs can also promote the degranulation of mast cells.
There are no simple tests to monitor or diagnose mast cell/histamine problems, so what you have outlined is probably a practical way to go about it. When taking antihistamines, you should see a very rapid response (if you are going to respond). Most people see significant improvement within a day (definitely within 2 days). If you don't see any improvement by the next day, that antihistamine is probably not going to help. If you see only a small improvement, you might need a higher dose, or even a combination of H1 and H2 antihistamines. It's a trial and error process.
Some members have found that DAO supplements help, while others couldn't see any benefits from them. Some members have found that a daily dose of Histame is helpful to help purge excess (left-over) histamine from their body. Histame is a replacement for DAO.
Some say that cromyln sodium (Gastrocrom), which is a mast cell stabilizer, helped them. I believe someone mentioned that it is very expensive here (almost all drugs are overpriced here), but it might be more reasonably priced in Europe.
Tex
I agree with Gigi that what you wrote is correct. I believe that it's impossible to accurately determine whether high-histamine foods are a worse problem than foods that promote the degranulation of mast cells, because that probably depends on circumstances and individual situations. Remember that many drugs can also promote the degranulation of mast cells.
There are no simple tests to monitor or diagnose mast cell/histamine problems, so what you have outlined is probably a practical way to go about it. When taking antihistamines, you should see a very rapid response (if you are going to respond). Most people see significant improvement within a day (definitely within 2 days). If you don't see any improvement by the next day, that antihistamine is probably not going to help. If you see only a small improvement, you might need a higher dose, or even a combination of H1 and H2 antihistamines. It's a trial and error process.
Some members have found that DAO supplements help, while others couldn't see any benefits from them. Some members have found that a daily dose of Histame is helpful to help purge excess (left-over) histamine from their body. Histame is a replacement for DAO.
Some say that cromyln sodium (Gastrocrom), which is a mast cell stabilizer, helped them. I believe someone mentioned that it is very expensive here (almost all drugs are overpriced here), but it might be more reasonably priced in Europe.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Gigi,
Here is some more information from the book that reflects my thoughts (including a research reference that directly addresses your question) on the cause of DAO depletion with MC.
14. Wollin, A., Wang, X., & Tso, P. (1998). Nutrients regulate diamine oxidase release from intestinal mucosa. American Journal of Physiology - Regulatory, Integrative, and Comparative Physiology, 275(4), 969–975. Retrieved from http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/275/4/R969.short
Tex
Here is some more information from the book that reflects my thoughts (including a research reference that directly addresses your question) on the cause of DAO depletion with MC.
And here is reference 14:In fact, according to research, certain nutrients regulate the release of diamine oxidase in the intestines, and it appears that decreased availability of DAO may be connected with the fat malabsorption problem that so many of us eventually develop as a secondary problem associated with microscopic colitis.14 Therefore, indirect scientific evidence does exist to indicate that microscopic colitis may lead to a diamine oxidase insufficiency for some of us, implying that a DAO supplement may be helpful.
A copper deficiency can also cause a DAO deficiency, and an inadequate supply of vitamin B-6 can prevent DAO from working properly. A deficiency of the B vitamins commonly occurs in association with the malabsorption issue that often accompanies MC and other IBDs when chronic diarrhea is present for extended periods.
Histame is a supplemental replacement for DAO, that can help to make up for a deficiency of natural DAO in the body. Some people with mast cell issues find that taking Histame daily helps to keep their histamine levels in check.
14. Wollin, A., Wang, X., & Tso, P. (1998). Nutrients regulate diamine oxidase release from intestinal mucosa. American Journal of Physiology - Regulatory, Integrative, and Comparative Physiology, 275(4), 969–975. Retrieved from http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/275/4/R969.short
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
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- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Gigi,
Yep my high copper is due to methylation/cell deficiencies.
I am pretty sure it has been an issue for decades, as high copper also makes the PCOS worse.
In line with what jonas mentioned about the supps, for me, since doing high doses of magnesium & Vit C to balance histamines, I have been able to consume high histamine foods / do activities that would have previously triggered histamine reaction, and have not had any histamine symptoms.
Fixing the mineral imbalances will also enhance gut healing.
Yep my high copper is due to methylation/cell deficiencies.
I am pretty sure it has been an issue for decades, as high copper also makes the PCOS worse.
In line with what jonas mentioned about the supps, for me, since doing high doses of magnesium & Vit C to balance histamines, I have been able to consume high histamine foods / do activities that would have previously triggered histamine reaction, and have not had any histamine symptoms.
Fixing the mineral imbalances will also enhance gut healing.
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
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seeljanerun
- Adélie Penguin
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:33 am
Jonas,
I have histamine issues also; I did try the DAO enzyme for about 2 weeks, and then stopped it, and noticed no change. So, I don't think it worked for me, but obviously that doesn't mean it wouldn't work for you.
I essentially just avoid most high histamine foods/"releasers" (except fish oil and meat); I take benadryl to sleep at night (not sure if it helps me or not in the histamine department) and just started taking zantac (h2) which has helped with a racing heart beat (appears to be a response to histamine release in the gut).
I have histamine issues also; I did try the DAO enzyme for about 2 weeks, and then stopped it, and noticed no change. So, I don't think it worked for me, but obviously that doesn't mean it wouldn't work for you.
I essentially just avoid most high histamine foods/"releasers" (except fish oil and meat); I take benadryl to sleep at night (not sure if it helps me or not in the histamine department) and just started taking zantac (h2) which has helped with a racing heart beat (appears to be a response to histamine release in the gut).
Jane
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seeljanerun
- Adélie Penguin
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:33 am
Hi Tex,
Mostly I notice reduction in histamine issues in food related matters. I don't think I can tie out a histamine reduction to seasonal allergies mostly because I live in the allergy belt in the south where the northern grasses and northern trees converge with the southern grasses and southern trees and it seems like seasonal allergies are almost a year round thing here. I'm almost at the Georgia line. There seems to be a reduction in seasonal allergies approximately from Nov 15th thru Jan 15th.
Brandy
Mostly I notice reduction in histamine issues in food related matters. I don't think I can tie out a histamine reduction to seasonal allergies mostly because I live in the allergy belt in the south where the northern grasses and northern trees converge with the southern grasses and southern trees and it seems like seasonal allergies are almost a year round thing here. I'm almost at the Georgia line. There seems to be a reduction in seasonal allergies approximately from Nov 15th thru Jan 15th.
Brandy