Evidence that Crohn's may be caused by dysbiosis

[Zizzle]

Landmark Crohn’s Microbiome Study Yields Important Findings

http://www.gastroendonews.com/ViewArtic ... a_id=28479

Chicago—One of the largest microbiome-focused studies to date has identified several distinct microbial species and communities that correlate with both the presence and severity of Crohn’s disease.

The findings, which analyzed the microbiome of 447 treatment-naive pediatric patients with Crohn’s disease and 221 without the condition, could pave the way for microbiome-based diagnostics and therapies for the illness, one expert said.

Tissue sample analyses revealed that children with Crohn’s generally had less species diversity, according to the researchers. Crohn’s disease also was associated with smaller populations of Erysipelotrichales, Bacteroidales and Clostridiales and larger populations of Enterobacteriaceae, Pasteurellaceae, Veillonellaceae and Fusobacteriaceae, the latter of which is associated with colorectal carcinoma

[tex]

Hi Zizzle,

I read that article last week (or whenever it became available) and shrugged it off, because it seems to make the same mistaken assumption as most gut-bacteria research articles. It assumes that the disrupted bacteria populations are the cause of IBDs. The problem with that view is that IBDs cause disruptions in gut bacteria populations (because of food sensitivities, poor digestion, diet changes, etc., and yes, because of medications, also), not the other way around.

Tex

[Zizzle]

You are so right. What came first, the chicken or the egg??

BUT, now that we know our disease causes (or may be caused by) dysbiosis, is not addressing it preventing us from healing? Is the dysbiosis what keeps the inflammatory cycle alive, even when we do all the right things???

[tex]

is not addressing it preventing us from healing? Is the dysbiosis what keeps the inflammatory cycle alive, even when we do all the right things???

Very good question, because we know that with MC, if we ignore the food sensitivities (that perpetuate the inflammation), we tend to continue to react.

Of course, with gut bacteria populations, those disrupted demographics can be modified/corrected by diet changes and/or improved digestion. I'm pretty sure that most of us have some degree of dysbiosis/SIBO when our MC is active. But when we manage to successfully control the MC symptoms (typically by diet changes), that dysbiosis fades away along with all the other issues. IOW, the diet changes address and eventually correct the gut bacteria population disruptions.

Tex

[Zizzle]

BTW, that study looked at 447 treatment-naive pediatric patients, which means medications are not a factor in the dysbiosis.

[tex]

which means medications are not a factor in the dysbiosis.

The article is somewhat misleading about that point, because it also says:

The patients had not yet been treated for the disease, although 57 had previously received antibiotics for other indications.

and:

In the subgroup of patients who had received antibiotics for indications other than Crohn’s disease, Dr. Xavier’s team found more pronounced microbial dysbiosis.

So obviously medications are indeed a factor in the dysbiosis problem. We can't always trust their conclusions, because most researchers these days seem to be unable to avoid bias in their conclusions.

Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

Treat the root cause of the inflammation......

Only when gut issues are bad enough to impact lifestyle do people start to listen to their bodies.
By then the gut has some damage and fair amount of imbalance.

Only when the cells in the body are healthy with the right balance of all requirements, does healing happen.
Treating microbes does not fix the cells.

[Zizzle]

In the subgroup of patients who had received antibiotics for indications other than Crohn’s disease, Dr. Xavier’s team found more pronounced microbial dysbiosis.

I dare you to find a kid in America today who hasn't taken an antibiotic for something. Sadly, it's a common denominator among most kids. Although I acknowledge that length of treatment and frequency is often a differentiating factor. i.e. gut populations can rebound after a short course of antibiotics. Not so much after repeated courses for recurrent infections. But again, if antibiotics were the cause, all kids would have Crohns.

[Gabes-Apg]

Doenst majority of the population have symptoms of IBS.

[tex]

I dare you to find a kid in America today who hasn't taken an antibiotic for something. Sadly, it's a common denominator among most kids. Although I acknowledge that length of treatment and frequency is often a differentiating factor. i.e. gut populations can rebound after a short course of antibiotics. Not so much after repeated courses for recurrent infections.

Back when antibiotics were considered to be a life-saving treatment, they were. Now that they are considered by most people (and their doctors) to be the first line of treatment for everything from the sniffles to an earache, antibiotics have evolved into an iatrogenic drug.

But again, if antibiotics were the cause, all kids would have Crohns.

That's not true. Nothing works all of the time, in every situation. We know that fluoroquinolones for example, cause tendonitis, torn ligaments, and severe neurological damage. But they certainly don't do that in every case. I have taken Cipro (twice, back in 2,000), and survived without any detectable damage of that sort.

No wait! Maybe that's where my peripheral neuropathy originated, because it began to show up about 5 years later.

Tex

[Zizzle]

No wait! Maybe that's where my peripheral neuropathy originated, because it began to show up about 5 years later.

Yikes! You may indeed have been floxed!! And you've been blaming gluten all along...

[tex]

Actually, I've been weighing those two issues for some time now, and I haven't reached any conclusions, but I have a hunch that both may have played a part. I'm afraid that Cipro may have caused the most severe damage though. For example, I have autonomic nervous system issues (breathing problems) that have never been described as related to gluten damage, but they closely resemble the breathing problems caused by myasthenia gravis. And of course there are all sorts of warnings about MG problems associated with the use of fluoroquinolones.

Now I'm wondering if Joe might have been treated with a fluoroquinolone at some point early in his treatment program.

Tex

[tex]

Well, this is a rather depressing post. I did a little searching, and found that Joe was given cipro, along with flagyl and avenox, following surgery that was apparently done in May, 2011. The link below provides a list of the possible side effects of avenox:

http://www.drugs.com/sfx/avonex-side-effects.html

In June, (2011) he posted about a flare. http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ight=cipro

In August of 2012 he posted that he had been prescribed the flagyl and cipro combination twice (presumably associated with different surgical procedures)

Hi Marie, I can certainly understand how the flagyl and cipro are making you feel. I have been given that combination twice in relationship to surgery for Crohns with fistulas and diverticulitis. The second round I had, I could not tolerate the full course of the meds and had to stop. It made me quite nauseous and dizzy and caused a rash that I needed prednisone to calm down.

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ight=cipro

His description of his reaction to those meds is more than a little disturbing, to say the least. Unfortunately, at the time we didn't have any idea what it might have indicated. His diagnosis with myasthenia gravis apparently occurred in May of this year:

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... nia+gravis

Back in those days, we all tended to choose cipro, because we thought that it was a safe antibiotic. If only we had known a few years ago, what we now know about cipro and other fluoroquinolones. That would have been too late for me, because I took it 14 years ago, but that information might have been helpful for many others.

I'm posting this for information purposes only (it's not intended to be medical advice), but IMO, anyone who has MC (and possibly anyone who doesn't have MC), should think it over very, very carefully, and weigh all the facts, before considering taking any fluoroquinolones. And after seeing the side effect list for avenox, I would be afraid to use it, also.

Tex

[AnnW]

I read that article last week (or whenever it became available) and shrugged it off, because it seems to make the same mistaken assumption as most gut-bacteria research articles. It assumes that the disrupted bacteria populations are the cause of IBDs. The problem with that view is that IBDs cause disruptions in gut bacteria populations (because of food sensitivities, poor digestion, diet changes, etc., and yes, because of medications, also), not the other way around.

Tex

I have to disagree. Disrupted microbe populations, have been shown to set off the inflammatory response, and probiotics have proven anti-inflammatory properties. The normal gut flora is seen by the body as "self". When their numbers are reduced (by a variety of causes, drugs included) there is an overgrowth of microbes which are usually present in very small amounts. Our bodies then mount an inflammatory defense against them. Dietary changes can affect the gut microbiome, but cannot usually restore "good bugs" lost to antibiotics, etc.

IMO, antibiotics play a far bigger role in IBD then once believed. It is often the accumulative effect of multiple courses of antibiotics over time, along with genetic predisposition, chemical exposures, as well as diet, that finallly produces IBD. In the past 2 decades there has been a 200% increase in IBD among children, and at younger and younger ages. This correlates with the increased use of antibiotics over that same time period. Once IBD develops there is further disruption in the gut microbiome. Also dysbiosis in mice has been shown to result in inflammation and food sensitivities that were reversed when the missing microbes were restored.

Ann

[Joefnh]

Hi Tex, I have taken Cipro a few times in the years preceding the diagnosis of Myasthenia Gravis (MG). It is known that Cipro can cause nerve damage and in some cases that can mimic the symptoms of MG.

In MG though, there are in many cases measurable antibodies (my numbers were on the high side) that the body produces that cause damage to the receptors in the muscle end plate that results in muscle weakness, and as I found out the hard way respiratory failure, a month in the ICU is no fun. I am not sure Tex that the neurological damage that Cipro and other drugs can cause can be linked to the antibodies that this AI condition produces.

I found it amazing the list of antibiotics that are contraindicated in MG, so many of them and many other meds can make pre-existing MG worse.