Tex, need our expertise on bone meal powder

mcnomore · Post by **mcnomore** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:54 pm

Hi, I am thinking of taking bone meal powder sourced from bovine. Beef is one of those meats I'm not supposed to eat. Should I avoid the bone meal? Thanks

AnnW · Post by **AnnW** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:00 pm

Hi Mcnomore:
Bone meal itself is not a problem. However, many bone meal products have been found to be high in lead. I avoid recommending it for that reason. But if you want to try it, make sure you buy from a reputable source.
Dr. Ann

Post by **tex** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:10 pm

Personally, if I were avoiding beef, I would avoid bovine bone meal. (Actually, I would probably avoid it even if I were not avoiding beef, because of the association with adaptive immune system processes.) Bone marrow is where the primary immune system lymphocytes that are associated with MC are produced. Both B-cells and precursors to T-cells are produced in bone marrow (though T-cells actually mature in the thymus). Anyway, the point is, these are critical components of the adaptive immune system. These immature bovine lymphocytes are not likely to have any effect on your own immune system, but the whole thing makes me uneasy. The paleo people ate bone marrow regularly, but they didn't have MC.

Unfortunately, I've never done much studying of the process by which bone marrow performs this vital immune system function, so I have to guess at the answer to your question, but in view of the immune system attributes of bone marrow, I would be concerned that there might be a high risk of certain proteins in beef marrow that could provoke a reaction in anyone who reacts to protein found in beef muscle tissue. As Ann pointed out, you would have to determine whether or not you react by trial and error, because there are no commercial antibody tests available for these proteins.

But as I said, I'm just guessing here, so I could be all wet.

Tex

mcnomore · Post by **mcnomore** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:14 pm

Thanks to both of you. I'm trying to figure out how to get calcium ( and vitamin C) since I don't seem to tolerate the various supplements I've tried.

AnnW · Post by **AnnW** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:15 pm

Tex:

Bone meal does not usually initiate an immune response as it is heated and dessicated before being ground up for supplement purposes. However, your point about avoiding it if one is allergic to beef is a valid one, since most bone meal is derived from beef.

Dr. Ann

Post by **tex** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:21 pm

Mcnomore,

Virtually everyone's diet contains plenty of calcium, so supplemental calcium probably isn't necessary. What is necessary is making sure that you have adequate levels of magnesium and vitamin D, so that your body can utilize the calcium that is already in your diet, rather than just wasting it.

Tex

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:23 pm

if you make baked bone broth from your 'safe' meat sources, that should provide enough calcium so long as your Vit D3 and Mag levels are ok.

I have not supplemented with calcium since Dx (over 5 years) and am not deficient, i must get enough from the bone broth etc especially now as I have fixed the magnesium deficiency.

mcnomore · Post by **mcnomore** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:18 pm

I am still looking for a vitamin d3 that I can tolerate. Ann, I am not allergic to beef, but my Enterolab tests told me I can't eat it.

AnnW · Post by **AnnW** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:05 am

tex wrote:
Virtually everyone's diet contains plenty of calcium, so supplemental calcium probably isn't necessary. What is necessary is making sure that you have adequate levels of magnesium and vitamin D, so that your body can utilize the calcium that is already in your diet, rather than just wasting it.

Tex

If avoiding dairy, the best food sources of calcium are beans, salmon, dark leafy greens, and some nuts and seeds. If these types of foods are not a regular in the diet then someone could very well be calcium deficient.

Dr. Ann

AnnW · Post by **AnnW** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:08 am

Mcnomore:

You may still tolerate bone meal even if you showed a reaction to beef. The only way to find out is to try it. Another great source of calcium is sardines, if you like them. Have you had a bone density test? Did it show you having bone loss?

Dr. Ann

JFR · Post by **JFR** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:21 am

Great review of calcium:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart

In fact this site, "the world's healthiest foods", has great information about food sources of most nutrients.

Jean

mcnomore · Post by **mcnomore** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:20 am

Thanks so much for the great feedback.

I had a bone density test about 4 years ago (I am 72) and was told I have the bones of a 30-year old.

I just ordered some Calcium ascorbate and Kirkman vitamin D3 hypoallergenic with the hope that I will be able to tolerate them.

I'm not sure yet whether or when I can tolerate all the veggies that you mention, but the list is helpful. I just begun adding veggies back into my diet.

Post by **tex** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:22 am

Ann wrote:
tex wrote:

Virtually everyone's diet contains plenty of calcium, so supplemental calcium probably isn't necessary. What is necessary is making sure that you have adequate levels of magnesium and vitamin D, so that your body can utilize the calcium that is already in your diet, rather than just wasting it.

Tex
If avoiding dairy, the best food sources of calcium are beans, salmon, dark leafy greens, and some nuts and seeds. If these types of foods are not a regular in the diet then someone could very well be calcium deficient.

Dr. Ann

If there's one thing I love, it's a good debate. Since you chose to challenge my statement, I'd like to examine this issue in a little more detail in order to elucidate my point. First I'll point out that the best food sources of calcium are irrelevant. Only the sources that we typically eat (or can eat), actually matter, and the fact of the matter is that many of us cannot tolerate many or most of the foods that you named, so as you point out, yes, clearly it's theoretically possible that a calcium deficiency could arise without either dairy products or those foods in one's diet. That definitely doesn't mean that a deficiency is likely, however.

In the real world, it's actually pretty easy to get more than enough calcium in our diet these days, without even trying. Most of us drink almond milk (or rice milk, or some other dairy substitute), for example. And all of those alternative milks are fortified with calcium, so that they provide more calcium than cow's milk. In fact a lot of foods are fortified with calcium these days. Even orange juice, and several other fruit and vegetable juices are fortified with calcium. Cereals, for example, are fortified with calcium, and while some contain only a few hundred mg, others have so much added calcium that a cup of some cereals can have up to 1,000 mg of calcium — that's roughly a full day's RDA (or close to it), in one shot. Adding a cup of almond milk to the cereal kicks the calcium content up to well over the RDA. And that's just considering that single serving size. It's a common practice for many people to eat more than the labeled serving size of most foods, because the labeled serving size is typically artificially understated in order to reduce the calorie content per serving, so that the food will appear to be "healthier".

In fact, virtually everything we eat contains at least a small amount of calcium, so it adds up, even if we do not realize it. And yes, bone stock is probably one of the best sources of calcium available to us, so that is another reason to be eating bone broth.

It's not necessary to eat foods that are loaded with calcium in order to have an adequate calcium intake. Consider our paleo ancestors — they didn't drink milk, they had no commercially fortified foods, and many tribes seldom or never had access to most of the sources of calcium that you named. Many/most tribes had a very restricted diet. And yet they thrived and were much healthier, bigger, and stronger than we are. Their bones were very robust, so calcium deficiency was obviously not a problem.

Case in point — I never eat any dairy products, nor any "beans, salmon, dark leafy greens, and some nuts and seeds" (except for almond milk, which has very little calcium, in the absence of fortification). Never! And yet my calcium level is at the top of the normal range, high enough that I'd rather see it lower. Why is it so high? Because I make sure that my magnesium and vitamin D levels are more than adequate. And no, reducing my vitamin D or magnesium intake is not a practical option (for reducing my calcium utilization), because calcium is not the reason why I take them in the first place.

Tex