Hi Tex,
I am curious about Vitamin K2. The preferred form is MK-7, but it appears to be made from fermented soybeans. Since soy is very problematic for me, would you recommend the MK-4?
Thanks,
Kathy
Vitamin K2
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Kathy,
Unfortunately, I know precious little about the way that Vitamin K2 is manufactured. I wasn't even aware that the MK-7 form was derived from fermented soybeans, until you mentioned it. I don't react to soybeans (also verified by EnteroLab), but I avoid soy anyway, because I consider it to be a very unhealthy food/additive. If push comes to shove however, and the only form of something I need is derived from soybeans, I will use it anyway, as a last resort.
With vitamin K2, I'm mostly concerned about overdoing the clotting potential (because I'm taking Plavix, to limit clotting potential, and my 23andme results show that I don't properly metabolize Plavix), so I was mainly searching for a low dose, because currently, there is virtually no natural K2 in my diet. I just need enough to prevent my blood level of calcium from getting too high (and promoting the formation of kidney stones), in the event that I'm able to get my serum vitamin D level back up into the upper part of the "normal" range. 45 mcg of K2 is way too low for most uses, but I thought I would stick with that low dose until I get around to discussing it with my doctor. In fact, after taking it daily for a week or so, I've dropped to taking it every other day now, just to be on the extra-safe side.
Here's a link to what I'm using. The label says it contains no soybeans (among being free of many other things), but I'm sure that pharmaceutical companies consider vitamins extracted from a fermentation process to be free of the feedstock used in the fermentation process.
http://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Lo ... tension+k2
The research I looked at concludes that not only is the MK-7 version far superior to the MK-4 version, but there may be no benefits at all from the MK-4 version, because no MK-4 blood level changes were even detected when the MK-4 version was used. Here's a link:
Comparison of menaquinone-4 and menaquinone-7 bioavailability in healthy women
That makes for a very tough decision. I really don't know what to say about it. Maybe someone who is an expert on K2 will notice this thread and offer some insight.
Bearcat — are you out there?
Tex
Unfortunately, I know precious little about the way that Vitamin K2 is manufactured. I wasn't even aware that the MK-7 form was derived from fermented soybeans, until you mentioned it. I don't react to soybeans (also verified by EnteroLab), but I avoid soy anyway, because I consider it to be a very unhealthy food/additive. If push comes to shove however, and the only form of something I need is derived from soybeans, I will use it anyway, as a last resort.
With vitamin K2, I'm mostly concerned about overdoing the clotting potential (because I'm taking Plavix, to limit clotting potential, and my 23andme results show that I don't properly metabolize Plavix), so I was mainly searching for a low dose, because currently, there is virtually no natural K2 in my diet. I just need enough to prevent my blood level of calcium from getting too high (and promoting the formation of kidney stones), in the event that I'm able to get my serum vitamin D level back up into the upper part of the "normal" range. 45 mcg of K2 is way too low for most uses, but I thought I would stick with that low dose until I get around to discussing it with my doctor. In fact, after taking it daily for a week or so, I've dropped to taking it every other day now, just to be on the extra-safe side.
Here's a link to what I'm using. The label says it contains no soybeans (among being free of many other things), but I'm sure that pharmaceutical companies consider vitamins extracted from a fermentation process to be free of the feedstock used in the fermentation process.
http://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Lo ... tension+k2
The research I looked at concludes that not only is the MK-7 version far superior to the MK-4 version, but there may be no benefits at all from the MK-4 version, because no MK-4 blood level changes were even detected when the MK-4 version was used. Here's a link:
Comparison of menaquinone-4 and menaquinone-7 bioavailability in healthy women
That makes for a very tough decision. I really don't know what to say about it. Maybe someone who is an expert on K2 will notice this thread and offer some insight.
Bearcat — are you out there?
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Well, this is interesting Tex. I have been using Thorne liquid K2 which is MK-4 and soy free. I wonder if it has been doing anything for me.tex wrote: The research I looked at concludes that not only is the MK-7 version far superior to the MK-4 version, but there may be no benefits at all from the MK-4 version, because no MK-4 blood level changes were even detected when the MK-4 version was used. Here's a link:
Comparison of menaquinone-4 and menaquinone-7 bioavailability in healthy women
Tex
https://shop.thorne.com/vitamin-k2-liquid
Jean
Hi Jean,
For all I know, there may be research articles that show that M-4 is best. That was just the first one I viewed. The problem with MK-4 appears to be it's very short half-life. Here's what Dr. Mercola says about it:
Here's what the Healthy Home Ecomomist says about it:
It appears to me that using MK-4 supplements would require dividing the daily dose up into small doses to be taken every few hours. Most vendors and users of MK-4 K2 seem to either be aware of the problem, or at least unconcerned about it, because if they were really concerned about, there wouldn't be many sales. Of course, it's extremely easy to overlook the problem, because there are no tests available for measuring K2 levels in the blood (or anywhere else in the body). So I'm pretty sure that most users just take it and assume that it's working fine (for better or for worse).
I suppose another option would be to take huge doses. That way, even though the blood levels of the supplement would only last for a very short time, the transient high levels might average out OK, and produce reasonable results.
Apparently overdosing on vitamin K2 is not a concern, because interestingly, even thousand-fold overdoses do not seem to cause clotting issues (according to Mercola's article).
Tex
For all I know, there may be research articles that show that M-4 is best. That was just the first one I viewed. The problem with MK-4 appears to be it's very short half-life. Here's what Dr. Mercola says about it:
New Study Shows Evidence That Vitamin K2 Positively Impacts InflammationVitamin K1 can convert to K2 in your body, but there are some problems with this; the amount of K2 produced by this process alone is typically insufficient. Making matters even more complex, there are several different forms of vitamin K2. MK-8 and MK-9 come primarily from dairy products. MK-4 and MK-7 are the two most significant forms of K2 and act very differently in your body:
MK-4 is a synthetic product, very similar to vitamin K1, and your body is capable of converting K1 into MK-4. However, MK-4 has a very short biological half-life of about one hour, making it a poor candidate as a dietary supplement.
After reaching your intestines, it remains mostly in your liver, where it is useful in synthesizing blood-clotting factors.
MK-7 is a newer agent with more practical applications because it stays in your body longer; its half-life is three days, meaning you have a much better chance of building up a consistent blood level, compared to MK-4 or K1. MK-7 is extracted from the Japanese fermented soy product called natto.
You could actually get loads of MK-7 from consuming natto, as it is relatively inexpensive and is available in most Asian food markets. Few Americans, however, tolerate its smell and slimy texture.
Here's what the Healthy Home Ecomomist says about it:
Which Vitamin K2 Supplement is Best – MK-4 or MK-7?If you decide that taking a Vitamin K2 supplement makes sense to you, which should you choose?
If given the choice, I prefer MK-4, the animal form of Vitamin K2 over MK-7 which is the form of K2 from bacterial fermentation.
However, the problem is that while MK-4 in food like grassfed butter, high vitamin butter oil, and pastured egg yolks is real and ideal, the MK-4 contained in supplements is synthetic.
Let me say that again. The MK-4 in supplements is not the same MK-4 as found in grassfed butter. The MK-4 in supplements is not derived from grassfed dairy as this would be prohibitively expensive. Rather, it is made from the extract of the tobacco plant.
Another big downside of MK-4 supplements is that this synthetic form of MK-4 does not remain in therapeutic levels in the blood for very long – only a few hours. As a result, to maintain useful levels of synthetic MK-4 in the blood throughout the day, periodic dosing every few hours is required.
Consequently, I take a Vitamin K2 supplement derived from natto (nonGMO soybeans) instead, which is the form of Vitamin K2 known as MK-7 as this is the same K2 you would get if you actually ate natto, which most folks find highly unpalatable.
Another plus is that MK-7 stays in therapeutic doses in the blood much longer than synthetic MK-4. As a result, a once a day supplement of MK-7 is sufficient to supplement the natural MK-4 that one is getting from a diet high in grassfed dairy and other sacred foods.
It appears to me that using MK-4 supplements would require dividing the daily dose up into small doses to be taken every few hours. Most vendors and users of MK-4 K2 seem to either be aware of the problem, or at least unconcerned about it, because if they were really concerned about, there wouldn't be many sales. Of course, it's extremely easy to overlook the problem, because there are no tests available for measuring K2 levels in the blood (or anywhere else in the body). So I'm pretty sure that most users just take it and assume that it's working fine (for better or for worse).
I suppose another option would be to take huge doses. That way, even though the blood levels of the supplement would only last for a very short time, the transient high levels might average out OK, and produce reasonable results.
Apparently overdosing on vitamin K2 is not a concern, because interestingly, even thousand-fold overdoses do not seem to cause clotting issues (according to Mercola's article).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Brandy,brandy wrote:Can we eat something to get the right K? (From someone with osteoporosis risk.)
Greens contain high levels of vitamin k, things like kale, swiss chard, beet greens. You can see a list of them here:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=112
I find this site, world's healthiest foods, very useful.
Tex - I have wondered why the Thornes liquid vitamin K2 had such a high dosage, 18,750% of daily requirement. Now I know.
Jean
Jean wrote:Tex - I have wondered why the Thornes liquid vitamin K2 had such a high dosage, 18,750% of daily requirement. Now I know.
Well whatta ya know. My musings may have been right on target.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Thanks everyone for all of this information. I eat green veggies every day, but I am going to add the Vitamin MK-7 from Amazon - thanks for the link, Tex! I've been taking a multivitamin and Vitamin D, but this is the year I'm going to add more supplements. It's wonderful to feel well enough to take this next step!
Kathy
Kathy