MTHFR Gene Mutations — What A Tangled Web They Weave

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MTHFR Gene Mutations — What A Tangled Web They Weave

Post by tex »

Hi All,

Medical researchers are only beginning to scratch the surface of the implications of various gene mutations, and most of the information currently available tends to be confusing and somewhat ambiguous, because one gene mutation will increase or decrease the probability of a significant negative effect on some important body process or disease risk, while another gene mutation will probably cause a positive effect. Yet other gene mutations will have similar effects, but at various lower probability levels. So interpreting that stuff is rarely easy.

Probably in about a 100 years, if the current rate of growth of medical and computational technology continues, humans may begin to develop a reasonably good understanding of how all this stuff works. In the meantime, we just have to do the best we can. We might be better off if we just ignored it all, until the technology matures, but sometimes we just can't justify doing that, because of the long-term (or even short-term) health consequences. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

About 2 or 3 months after my first major surgery (in November, 2005, a little over 9 years and 4 months ago) I began to notice that I was frequently short of breath. I was in good physical condition when I went into the hospital, so I couldn't figure out why I was short of breath all the time. I noticed that I suddenly had a lot of hypothyroid symptoms, such as hair missing from the outer third of the eyebrows, dry hair, low body temperature, etc. I asked my PCP for thyroid tests. He wanted to order the usual total T3 and total T4 tests, but I finally talked him into ordering the Free T3 and Free T4 tests. My TSH and Free T3 were both mid-range, but my Free T4 was slightly below range. So he suggested a minimal dose of synthroid. A couple of months on that dose seemed to have helped very little, so he OK'd doubling the dose. That helped the FT4 a little more, but still didn't do much for any of the clinical symptoms. So he agreed to a change to Armour. That actually helped. It didn't resolve all the symptoms, but the improvement was noticeable. So I stuck with that dose (60 mg).

In July, 2009 when I got out of bed one morning and began to get dressed, I noticed that the fingers of my right hand had suddenly become numb. Normally, using them should cause them to "wake up". Instead, the numbness was slowly climbing past my hand, and up my arm. And then I noticed that the right side of my face was beginning to become numb. That's when I interrupted the dressing process to take some time to dig out an aspirin and swallow it. I finished dressing and waited a few minutes to see if it would become any worse. After the numbness reached my ear I took another aspirin and headed for my vehicle and drove to the ER (about 20 miles away). Interestingly, even the right side of my tongue was numb, split right square down the middle. I apologize for including all these details, but they may be important when we get to the chase.

Long story short, they couldn't find anything wrong with me (my enzymes didn't show the markers of a heart attack and my limbs still showed almost normal strength, and no drooping of facial muscles), but since those areas were still numb (and some of them remained that way for several days), and they noted that I seemed to slur a few words, the doctor pronounced it a TIA, suggested a daily baby aspirin, and sent me home. Some of the numbness (at a reduced level) persisted for a week or so, but finally faded away everywhere except for some light tingling at the outer end of my lower lip, which appeared to be at least semi-permanent. I had to be very careful when eating for a day or 2, because if the food was too hot for example, and I put it into the right side of my mouth, I would never know that it was too hot, risking a severe burn without even being aware of it. Likewise, I could taste absolutely nothing on the right side of my tongue. But if I shifted the food over to the left side of my mouth, every thing worked normally.

Following the TIA, a neurologist gave me some samples of Metanx (a blend of the active forms of vitamins B-12, B-9, and B-6), after he diagnosed me with Parkinson's disease. :shock: When I asked my PCP about Metanx, he recommended it and said that he had been taking it for years to maintain memory, cognizance and general mental acuity, IOW to prevent ageing of the brain.

In February of 2010 I had to have another major surgery, and maybe it's just my imagination, but my shortness of breath issues seemed to increase again after that. I decided that something about the anesthetic must be causing some sort of damage, somewhere. But of course that was strictly a wild guess.

May, 2010, another TIA-like event, same side, same symptoms, this time it began about 11 at night while I was taking a shower. I finished the shower and pondered what to do. After about an hour with no change, I called the night nurse's desk to ask if she thought there was any point in me going to the ER. Of course that was like asking a bear if he poops in the woods. Naturally she said that such things should always be checked out, and since this was my second event, this time they might do more tests and track down the cause. They kept me overnight and the next day did an MRI brain scan, but nothing conclusive was found. So this time the ER doc prescribed Plavix, Simvastatin, and metoprolol and lisinopril to lower my BP and lower my heart rate (though my BP and heart rate were normal).

But by about half a year later, my shortness of breath issues became more of a problem. At times I couldn't have taken a deep breath if my life depended on it. Sometimes the tips of the fingers of my left hand lost most of their feeling or tingled. I wondered if it might be the Metanx, so I stopped taking it for a while, couldn't tell any difference, then started taking it again.

For the first 9+ years, my thyroid lab test results were relatively consistent, with my TSH and FT3 typically about in the middle of the normal range, and my FT4 at the bottom limit of normal, or slightly below. Then for some strange reason last fall (October, 2014) my TSH crashed (to slightly below normal), while FT3 and FT4 remained basically unchanged. And by February, 2015 it had obviously crashed and burned (waaaaaaaaaay below normal at 0.07). FT3 was still mid-range and FT4 at the bottom of the normal range.

Now, back to the Metanx scene. Since at times during 2013 I began to notice increasing shortness of breath issues and the fingertips of my left hand showed signs of paresthesia more frequently, I stopped taking Metanx during the month of September. No change, so I started using it again. As the symptoms became worse by February, 2014, I stopped taking Metanx for 2 months. No change except that my balance seemed to be deteriorating again (which was the main reason why I was taking Metanx in the first place), so I resumed taking it every other day (IOW, a half dose). My balance didn't seem to be improving, so by October, 2014 I resumed taking it every day.

By sometime in January, 2015 the paresthesia in the fingers of my left hand seemd to be chronic, I was waking up within a couple of hours of getting to sleep, sweating like a pig, with shallow, rapid breathing, and rapid heart rate. I couldn't take a deep breath to save my life, even though I was constantly feeling the urge to do so. I decided that I was dehydrated, which was correct, but why was I dehydrated? I drank plenty of water during the day, but it went straight to my bladder, and the cells of my body continued to starve for water. Still, drinking water during the night would temporarily relieve the problem, so the symptoms were clearly caused by dehydration. But my systolic BP would be low in the mornings (as in below 100 mmHg). Clearly that was due to hypovolemia (low blood volume) and after drinking water all day, by bedtime it would be high (as in 50–60 mmHg higher). This was probably due to hypervolemia (high blood volume) caused by the combination of endothelial dysfunction and the inability of my body to properly regulate my blood volume (and therefore blood pressure).

But the TSH result showed a possible root cause — hyperthyroidism symptoms. So I've reduced my Armour dose by half and my BP is slowly getting back to normal and I haven't been waking up during the night with dehydration until the D started from the flu, but that's not surprising. But I wonder if the flu might be capable of causing a rebound effect on BP after one's temperature declines again, because yesterday my BP was 88/49 in the morning (lower than I've ever recorded) and 97/55 last night. I didn't take any lisinopril of course, and this morning my BP was 101/58, and it was 114/65 tonight (a few minutes ago). And since the D seems to have let up during the night, I didn't have any dehydration problems, either.

So why, after all those years, did my thyroid function change? My theory is that my original hypothyroid symptoms were probably not actually caused by hypothyroidism per se, but by methylation issues due to MTHFR gene mutations triggered by the anesthetic used during my 2 surgeries. Note that I never noticed my peripheral neuropathy symptoms (if they existed) and various other diagnostic markers of Parkinson's disease, nor shortness of breath, nor various hypothyroid symptoms, prior to the first surgery, in November, 2005. And interestingly, even thought I could be short of breath, and unable to draw a deep breath, my oxygenation rate was always excellent (except for when I woke up dehydrated, with shallow, rapid breathing and elevated heart rate).

So it appears that the Metanx may have remedied the methylation issues, causing my long-term Armour dosage to become an overdose. We won't check the thyroid labs again until a few weeks from now, to make sure that I've reached homeostasis, but so far things definitely seem to be headed in the right direction. And a couple of months ago, while researching the ingredients in Metanx for clues, I discovered that there is apparently credible evidence that if one takes excess amounts of B-6 long enough (which I have been doing), it can actually cause paresthesia. :shock: So I discussed stopping the Metanx with my PCP, but he didn't think that was a great idea, so I'm taking the active forms of B-12 and B-9 only for a while. So far the paresthesia in my fingertips has improved slightly, but nothing to write home about. So I'm still not sure if the B-6 has anything to do with that.

Methylation (and apparently it's potential effect on the thyroid) is a complex issue. Eventually I'll probably figure out a dose that works optimally. In the meantime, life is getting to be pretty good again (if I could just get out from under this dang flu).

Thanks for taking the time to read this far. Again, I apologize for the length, but IMO the more details included in a post, the more valuable it might be for others who might be having similar issues (or who might have them in the future).

Of course this "logic" (as if it can be called logic) is little more than wild speculation. So what do you think? Am I barking up the wrong tree, or will this dog hunt?

:barkingupwrongtree:

Tex
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Post by Erica P-G »

Because this sounds neurological....how do you feel magnesium would fit into this picture? Since we can't measure it, and it can deplete our cells but we rely so much on its use, this is one aspect that comes to mind. :wink: just a thought....how are your VitD3 levels?
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

My issues with Mast Cells, Hypertension, renal impairment, all started after having multiple anaesthetic (local and 2 x knock outs) in 5 week period.

In some of Joes original info about mast cells, circa early 2012, it talks about anaesthetic being a trigger.
More so now, that I am aware and researching methylation, and reflecting back on various events of members here, I am certain there is a strong correlation with anaesthetic disrupting the methylation cycle....starting a mega mast cell situation.
(And a further pondering if methylation mast cell is the cause of the flare, maybe this why the steroids don't work so well for some people.... )

Further to that, the amount of people having a flare after colonscopy etc. I also think that the combo of the clean out, and the bodies reaction to anaesthetic (being methylation hiccup, triggering mast cells etc) is the basis of major flare.
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Post by Grahm »

Gabes,

I'm sure that's what happened to me. The day after my colonoscopy was the sickest I think I've ever been.

I'm getting ready to have some eye surgery. Do you or anyone have any suggestions as to what questions I should ask about the anesthesia?

Thanks,
Connie
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

Connie,
The hard part of all this is that mainstream medicine are slow to acknowledge the link of methylation issues and medical conditions...

(Just like they are slow to acknowledge the link between ongoing inflammation and various medical conditions,,)

If you mention these theories to the anethesatist, I am sure he will look at you like you are an alien from Mars. And question if you are mentally fit for the surgery!!

Based on my reaction to anaesthetics and the reading/research I have done thus far, my plan is to have extra active B6 and extra active b12 in the day before and day after anaesthetic.
Extra Vit D to help reduce inflammation and take extra zinc, magnesium, Vit E, etc to help clear the toxins/metals/preservatives that are in the various injections etc.

It is near impossible for us to avoid the ingredients causing the issues... So minimising their impact is our best course of action, being prepared that we will be a bit poorly afterwards, stick with the bland easy to digest meals for a week or so afterwards...
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Post by tex »

Hi Erica,

I take 800 mg of magnesium daily, half as magnesium citrate and half as magnesium glycinate, plus whatever might be in my multivitamin. My vitamin D level was 96 ng/mL (tested about 1 month ago), so I've temporarily mostly stopped taking it to allow the level to drift down a little. I have taken a little vitamin D since the flu showed up though, to make sure that there's plenty available.

It's a complex situation. The thyroid controls the production of many hormones in the body, so when the thyroid is not functioning properly, it can really throw a monkey wrench into the machinery. The thyroid regulates metabolism, heart rate (and indirectly blood pressure, by way of the kidneys), which means that it regulates body temperature and the chemistry of digestion, among many other things.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Tex
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Post by tex »

Gabes-Apg wrote:My issues with Mast Cells, Hypertension, renal impairment, all started after having multiple anaesthetic (local and 2 x knock outs) in 5 week period.

In some of Joes original info about mast cells, circa early 2012, it talks about anaesthetic being a trigger.
More so now, that I am aware and researching methylation, and reflecting back on various events of members here, I am certain there is a strong correlation with anaesthetic disrupting the methylation cycle....starting a mega mast cell situation.
(And a further pondering if methylation mast cell is the cause of the flare, maybe this why the steroids don't work so well for some people.... )

Further to that, the amount of people having a flare after colonscopy etc. I also think that the combo of the clean out, and the bodies reaction to anaesthetic (being methylation hiccup, triggering mast cells etc) is the basis of major flare.
:iagree: Thanks.

Tex
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Post by tex »

Connie wrote:I'm sure that's what happened to me. The day after my colonoscopy was the sickest I think I've ever been.
Same here. I was sick when I went in for the procedure, and sicker when I came out, and I stayed sick (sicker) for several days afterward.

Tex
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Post by Vanessa »

Dang....not good news to hear the day before I'm about to go in for a breast biopsy. It won't be general anesthesia but I'll be getting the Michael Jackson juice through IV. I took allegra for the first time today since my throat felt almost all the way shut by this afternoon and there were still signs of rash since yesterday. After about 10 minutes things opened up...not all the way but significantly. I may have to double my dose to get the right amount of anti histamine. The info on mast cells is very helpful albeit a little above my head. Why " all of a sudden" and how long do people generally stay on anti histamines? I need to quit asking why...... :pigtail:
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Post by tex »

Vanessa,

Allergies handled by the adaptive immune system typically start out as a minimal problem and slowly become worse with each subsequent exposure. If your throat is becoming progressively constricted with repeated exposure, it might be a good idea to ask your doctor for a prescription for an EpiPen just in case it should ever turn into a full anaphylactic event.

Interestingly, while I don't seem to have a major reaction to local anesthetics, I have noticed that the stuff dentists use typically causes light hay fever symptoms for a day or so.

Antihistamine regimens depend on the reason they are being used. Usually they are continued until the problem that triggers the symptoms no longer causes symptoms (such as the end of pollen season, for example).

Your symptoms may or may not be associated with methylation issues but it is known that methylation plays a role in histamine breakdown in the intestines. We've only figured out a few years ago on this board that histamine intolerance and mast cell activation syndrome may play a big part in the treatment of MC for some of us. Some members don't seem to have major mast cell/histamine problems, but for those affected, it can be a big item that prevents remission.

A lot of people talk about histamine intolerance (especially bloggers on the Internet), but I wonder how many of them realize that one of the potential underlying causes of histamine intolerance is poor methylation. That sort of changes our perspective on histamine intolerance, and it's relationship to MC, to say the least.

Tex
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Post by tex »

Erica wrote:Because this sounds neurological....
That's because most of it is indeed neurologically-associated. Certain systems in the body are more affected by methylation issues than others, but one of the main systems affected by compromised methylation are the brain and associated production of neurotransmitters.

One of the most important (in fact, it's crucial) functions of methylation is to regulate gene expression. IOW, methylation can turn genes on or off. When a methyl group binds to a gene and switches the way that the gene expresses itself, this is known as DNA methylation, and it's one of various ways that cells can use to change gene expression. Most of us have heard of the phenomenon of epigenetics by now. DNA methylation is epigenitics possibly at it's best.

A fairly recent discovery shows that a mother’s and even a father’s diet prior to and at the time of conception (not just the mother's diet during pregnancy) actually affect not only their children’s health, but their grandchildren’s health. Is that awesome or what? Surely it changes a lot of the rules that we have been following prior to that discovery.

And it should certainly help to explain the almost exponential growth of autism, ADHD, allergies, IBDs, AI diseases, etc., during recent decades, as overprocessed and junk foods have pretty much dominated the market. Note that this doesn't apply to all of us, because all of us don't necessarily have MTHFR gene mutations. But many of us seem to have significant neurological issues (depression is an example of a neurological issue, for example). Even more of us have mast cell/histamine issues. And the powers of methylation over gene-switching events really sheds some light on the situation. Why else would the genes that predispose to gluten sensitivity be triggered when the genes that predispose to MC are triggered, for example? That surely falls under the jurisdiction of the expression of epigenetics as activated by various methylation events. This has to be a very complex and very profound combination.

We are living during some exciting times aren't we? If we think scientific knowledge is rapidly increasing now, just imagine what the future will be like. Anyone interested can read much more about what I've written here at the following link:

RHR: Methylation—What Is It and Why Should You Care?

Tex
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Post by Sheila »

Thanks, Tex for continuing to delve into the mysteries MC and myriad satellite health issues that Potty People live with.

Trying to figure out my Methylation cycle defects is beyond confusing. I'm going to ask my primary care doc for testing and referral to try to figure it out. I was taking methylated B vitamins for a few weeks and felt terrible. Gabes steered me straight on that mis-step. It is so easy to do the wrong thing and I certainly don't want to make anything worse than it already is. I finished reading Richard Francis's book on Epigenetics and it was helpful. The other book I bought on Epigenetics etc might as well be written in another language.

I'm wondering if those of us of Irish descent are reaping the nutritional deficits of our foremothers and forefathers during the Irish famine. How many others are suffering from their ancestors starvation diet during WW 1 and WW 2?

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Post by tex »

Hi Sheila,

I certainly agree that it's relatively easy to get tripped up while trying to deal with methylation issues. I got tripped up treating balance problems and peripheral neuropathy, because it apparently shifted gears on my thyroid.

I can remember my parents talking about all the rationing that went on during WW 2. Those had to be pretty tough times, especially since the main thing that separated those 2 wars in this country was the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl of the 1930s. I suppose most young people these days are so many generations away from that, that they can't even imagine what living during those times had to be like.

Tex
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

My Grandfather was a POW in Germany during WW1.
he had 'trench nephritis' within the first 6 months of arriving in France

Aside from the nutritional aspects of war years, depression in the 30's etc - there is the chemicals used, both during in the war and in farming until their dangers were realised..

When my grandfather came home - the Aus Govt gave him an allotment of land to be a farmer/orchadist. It took him 2 years of harsh chemicals to clear all the weeds to plant the apple trees (using things like DDT etc) to make a living..

I researched all the chemicals that my farmer grandfathers, and then my parents growing up on the farms in the 1930's-1940's that were very likely 'shared' with me. In using kinesiology I was trying to clear these - things like Dieldrin was one that we were struggling to clear.

That is why Methylation has become a big research focus for me, optimising our methylation cycle allows the body to clear excess toxins/metals, to then have healthy cells functioning in the body... With the right approach and lots of time, we can correct these issues. My research thus far based on my combo of issues is that it will take me about 3-5 years.
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Post by Patricia »

Would you consider neuropathy/paresthesia a symptom of MC? And if so, what is the connection? Decreased absorption of vitamin B6, B9, B12? Is that why quite a few people on this board take Metanx? What is the percentage of people with MC having neuropathies?

I started noticing pins and needles in my arms, legs, butt, sometimes even my back at the beginning of March (I was diagnosed with LC at the end of September of last year, I went strictly gluten free in October; no more wheat flour in the house either). Last month, when I started noticing pins and needles I ordered the Metanx equivalent and have been taking it since mid-March. After a few days of taking it, the pins and needles went away. Unfortunately, they came back after having been absent for a week. I don't have them all the time, and they are not always in the entire body, either. It might just be one body part. They kind of come and go. No numbness, no weakness, brisk reflexes (I have always had very brisk reflexes), no coordination problems. What is this? Is there a connection to MC? And how long until Metanx will make a difference if vitamin B deficiency is the cause?

Love, Patricia
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