Having a Flare....Would love your input

[Shar76]

Good Afternoon, Potty People!

I've been thinking about what you said about my tagline, Tex, and here are some of my conclusions.

Re: RLS If I ever had any doubt I was MG deficient, that notion was quashed overnight. After reading your post, I thought Hmmmmm, why not, and slathered MG oil topically on my legs, stomach and chest area b4 bed last night for the first time in months....(think I just got lazy about applying it). I woke up this morning with my poor restless legs in the best shape they've been in in months. Barely a twitch, and they'd been getting to the point of feeling as if they were in constant motion lately.

So, of course, that brings some questions to mind. As I said, I haven't found an oral MG supplement that doesn't give me D. Any suggestions ? Is using MG Oil topically alone, applied daily, sufficient to correct a deficiency?


Re: Diabetes type 2 Tex, you had the classic symptoms of diabetes, the 3 P's (polydipsia, polyuria, and perhaps polyphagia altho you didn't mention the last) even tho it appears you weren't afflicted. I, OTOH, had NO symptoms although I have the classic apple-shaped body type that predisposes, and I was overweight at the time. My first clue was a HgbA1-C of 7.8 when I was diagnosed in 2009. I took Metformin for awhile, but you guessed it, it gave me D, one of the huge side-effects of Metformin or the beginnings of MC...? Who knows. I decided diet and exercise were what I was going to do instead of medication, and I've been able to keep my A1-C in the 6.0-6.5 range since and have taken no more meds. Recently, I reduced carb intake even further with subsequent loss of more weight and I continue with exercise. My next A1-C is scheduled for September.

In summary, it is my feeling that I do indeed have Diabetes 2, but who knows, correcting a MG deficiency may improve my numbers. We'll see as I plan to use topical MG daily from now on.


Re: Panic/Anxiety and I forgot to list Depression I'm not sure why I even listed these as they are old problems I've pretty much overcome stemming from an abusive first marriage. I still have occasional anxiety, kind of free-floating, don't know why type, but I haven't had a full out panic attack in years and the depression too has resolved. I do still have what I'll call "social anxiety", but that appears to be part of my personality. I do not take meds for any of these issues anymore, but after reading the MG book, who knows what correcting a deficiency will bring.


Re: Hypertension My BP is fine at home, and is the highest when I have a doctor visit. (white coat hypertension?) I do currently take atenolol 50mg/daily and zestoretic 20/12.5mg daily, but would dearly love to be off both. If after using MG for awhile, religiously, I can attempt to wean off, I'm all for it.

You mentioned thyroid as having some of the same symptoms as MG deficiency, but there I'm OK. Labs are WNL.


So, in conclusion, I think I'd like to know what any of you may have to suggest as an oral MG supplement that we MC's can tolerate digestively, and/or is just doing topical going to be enough to correct a MG deficiency I'm now convinced I have?

I also think it's time I re-read the MG book, it's been about 18 months, and I'll definitely take a look at the sticky you recommended, Gabes.

I was lucky that the ER docs included the test. They didn't catch the problem, however, I had to figure it out for myself after I downloaded the test results from "Mychart" a couple of days later. Then the light bulb came on. I was already taking magnesium, and my magnesium level had been tested before, but naturally the result was normal, so I never suspected magnesium until I saw that result from the ER tests.

Curious what test they did, Tex, the tissue test you mentioned...or? Not at all surprised they missed the result and that you caught it......isn't that a sad state of affairs, but we certainly do have to be our own advocates.



Happy Weekend!

Shar in MS[/quote]

[JFR]

I take magnesium glycinate. It's doesn't cause d.

Jean

[brandy]

Jean recommended the magnesium glycinate to me and it really works. I also like epsom salt baths.

[Shar76]

Jean and Brandy,

Can I ask what dosage of MG Glycinate you take daily? With food or empty stomach?

I have some 100mg capsules. I have read that we need an additional 400mg/daily along with our diet, so that would be 4 capsules/day. Maybe because I tried to take 4 throughout the day I got D...???

As far as Epsom salt baths, how much do you add to a tub of water, Brandy? I live in a very small town and have been able to find only very small packets of epsom salts.

[tex]

As I said, I haven't found an oral MG supplement that doesn't give me D. Any suggestions ?

What brand of magnesium glycinate were you using? As Jean and Brandy pointed out, chelated magnesium normally doesn't cause any GI issues for most of us. I've been using Vitacost brand, but I recently decided to switch to Doctor's Best brand after discovering that the Vitacost product was rated as the least absorbable by an independent testing agency, while the Doctor's Best brand was rated as the best.

Why is this so? Apparently because the Vitacost product is buffered, and they proudly advertise that on the label. Most users surely assume that "buffered" is good, but in this case it's not, because what it means is that much of the magnesium glycinate is replaced with cheap magnesium oxide, and magnesium oxide has very poor absorbability. And Vitacost can't seem to do enough misleading advertising, because they also advertise their tablets as 400 mg, and even label them that way. If the user doesn't happen to notice that it's 400 mg per serving, and then look up at the top of the label to see that the serving size is 2 tablets, they will assume that they are getting 400 mg per tablet. The Doctor's Best product is honestly advertised and labeled as 200 mg (as it should be), and of course, it is not buffered.

I could be wrong, but I'll bet that "buffered" magnesium glycinate is much more likely to cause D than the unbuffered version, because the cheaper forms of magnesium are more likely to cause D, and the magnesium oxide used as a "buffering" agent by Vitacost is known to cause D.

Is using MG Oil topically alone, applied daily, sufficient to correct a deficiency?

I would think that it would be, as long as you apply enough, and allow enough time for it to soak in.

Regarding the "white coat hypertension", my BP at medical appointments previously matched my home readings, and often was even lower, until I developed the magnesium deficiency. I couldn't figure out why my BP was suddenly at least 20 or 30 points higher (and sometimes worse) whenever I had a medical appointment. My white coat syndrome seems to be gone now, though.

Be careful that your BP doesn't get too low if you are taking BP meds. I'm taking 10 mg of lisinopril at bedtime (prescribed for stroke prevention, along with plavix, metoprolol tartarate, and simvastatin, after I had a second TIA), and sometimes I have to skip it if my systolic BP is below a hundred mmHg. FWIW, I stopped taking the statin after about 8 or 9 months, because my fingers would lock up during the night, so that I would have to take the other hand to fold them down. I stopped taking the metoprolol 2 or 3 years ago, because my heart rate was getting to be too slow at times (into the bradycardia range).

I still take the plavix (or a generic) and lisinopril, just in case the doctors are right, but I suspect that my TIAs were actually caused by either methylation issues or acute magnesium deficiency (or a combination). Magnesium deficiency is known to increase the risk of heart attack or stroke. Both times, the right side of my face and my right arm became numb (starting at the center of my face and my fingertips), but I never lost any significant amount of strength, and my facial muscles didn't sag. (Magnesium deficiency is also known to cause paresthesia. The nurse recorded that I slurred a few of my words when speaking, but hell, I'm a Texan, not a politician. Still, I figure it's best to be safe than sorry, and I sure wouldn't want to end up having a stroke and have to say, "Gosh, I wish I had paid attention to what the doctor said".

I note that while I was having the magnesium deficiency issues associated with the antibiotic, I was also having problems with increasing paresthesia in the fingers of my left hand. I blamed that on taking Metanx for too many years, because an excessive amount of vitamin B-6 can cause paresthesia. So I started taking only the active forms of vitamins B-12 and B-9 on 4 or 5 days each week, and skipping the Metanx on those days. The paresthesia promptly resolved when I started taking more magnesium. This just dawned on me. Now I wonder if the problem was simply due to the magnesium deficiency, and the Metanx had nothing to do with it.

Curious what test they did, Tex, the tissue test you mentioned...or? Not at all surprised they missed the result and that you caught it......isn't that a sad state of affairs, but we certainly do have to be our own advocates.

They used the regular blood test. In defense of the ER docs though, I have to acknowledge that they are there to handle emergencies, not to diagnose long-standing, ordinary problems, but the least they could have done would have been to point out the clearly-flagged magnesium deficiency in the test results, and either recommend a magnesium supplement, or tell me to ask my PCP about taking a magnesium supplement. Instead, they just ignored it and said that all the test results were fine. It was pretty clear to me that like most physicians, they just don't seem to attach much importance to magnesium, and of course that's why something like 80 % of the population is magnesium deficient.

Of course, my renal function (estimated glomerular filtration rate) was also well below range, and they definitely should have mentioned that. But I was there to assess a possible antibiotic reaction, so I suppose they didn't consider it to be relevant. They couldn't determine for sure whether or not I was having a reaction to the antibiotic either (because my symptoms weren't classic text book quality, but they did tell me to switch, and gave me a script for Cipro. The next day, the rash they were looking for to confirm that I had an allergic reaction to the antibiotic showed up on my ankle. Why it took almost 48 hours for the rash to show up is beyond me, but as I said, I didn't have text book symptoms.

After I figured it out (and boosted my magnesium intake), my vital signs and lab results returned to normal, so my PCP agreed with me that the antibiotic had probably finished off my magnesium reserves, resulting in an acute magnesium deficiency that caused virtually all of my symptoms.

You're so right — we definitely have to stay alert, because one of the first things that medical students learn is that when they hear hoof beats, they should expect to see horses, not zebras. Consequently, rare or even unusual health issues are typically completely off their radar. That mindset kept MC in the rare category for decades This seems absurd in the case of magnesium though, because magnesium deficiency is at epidemic levels. But they consider it a rare problem, because they never treat it. Therefore it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy — they never treat it, so it must not be a problem.

Tex

[Shar76]

I was using a product from Klaire Labs and I didn't notice when I purchased it, but earlier I saw MagOX mentioned on the label and thought, "Oh NO!". It doesn't say it's buffered but word 4 word it says "Magnesium (TRACCS, magnesium biglycinate chelate, magnesium oxide) 100mg" Wanna bet that MagOX is in there as a buffer, and that's what caused the D?! My bad for not noticing it on the label b4 purchase. *I usually do better research* I know better than to take anything with MgOX!! (sad thing is, good ole MgOX is given routinely in hospitals. I gave so much of it when I worked in acute rehab......only to have patients with D! I tried to tell the docs, but they wouldn't listen. I hate to imagine what they were charged/tab)

Anyway, the good news is, I just ordered what you're taking "Doctor's Best 200 mg" because that looked the best to me and I did so a couple hours b4 reading your post. GMTA, sometimes!

So then, my questions become, how much do you take daily, and with food or empty stomach? And do you still use topical as well as oral?


I do keep a good eye on my BP, and will do so even more frequently when I start taking MG orally. I would love to chuck what I'm on in the trash. I've always had white coat hypertension tho, and I guess I still do. I'm OK as the nurse, but hate being the patient. Good for you on stopping the statin!! I wouldn't take one on a bet, and fortunately haven't needed one thus far. Has your hand stopped locking up since you discontinued? I'm gonna guess YES!!Good for keeping a good eye on your heart rate too. Don't wanna head too far down Bradycardia Lane.

Yeah, the symptoms you're describing don't sound exactly like a TIA. And I agree with you, more likely a MG or methylation issue. The fact that you didn't lose strength on that side and that you had no facial droop would say NO to me, but it's good, as you say, to continue the plavix & lisinopril just in case.

I hear you about the role of ER docs. I would have just hoped they would have pointed it out to you and especially that GFR. I always try to get a copy of my labs for that very reason....not a trusting person where docs are concerned. So your MG was low on a regular serum test? Wow, as I said, mine was low but still within the normal range. You must have been severely depleted. It's sad that the medical profession doesn't take the importance of MG seriously, nor treat it as needed. We have a lot of educating to do, but if yours is anything like my PCP, she doesn't want input.......especially from a lowly RN. Duh!!!

My "Doctor's Choice should be here middle of next week, I'll let you know how it goes.

And TY for reminding me about the topical MG. It seems I got lazy and it dries my already dry skin out quite a bit, but compared to RLS, that's nothing. I shall not become lazy again X 100 on the black board.




Shar in MS

[Gabes-Apg]

Shar,
Pretty sure there is a post in magnesium section about how much to take.

The RDI/RDA is 400mg of elemental magnesium.
For those with conditions/ symptoms you need more. Ie 600mg elemental magnesium

It takes a couple of months of a dosage like 600-800mg to correct deficiency. This is elemental magnesium dosage. When you get your product read the label, the 200mg magnesium capsule might only have 100mg elemental magnesium..

I am a high user of mg. despite high doses for over 12 months if I reduce the dose, symptoms return. I do both oral and topical.
Spread the oral through the day.
With the topical to avoid the skin drying, sticky thing, when I get up in the morning, I spray legs, tummy, shoulders, neck, arms. Have wake up coffee, then shower. It only needs 5-10 to be absorbed.
I spray the tops of my legs every time I go to the toilet. (Have small spray bottle by the loo)
Get home from work, spray tops of legs, tummy, neck, arms etc again. Before bed, Wash legs and moisterise legs to avoid dry skin.
If I wake through the night, I will sometimes spray neck and tummy.

With a bit of planning it can become part of the routine... I can get about 500mg elemental mag from topical application in this approach.

[tex]

Shar,

I'm pretty sure that the main reason for adding the magnesium oxide is to lower the production cost, and not to provide any actual buffering. What would it buffer? Absorption rate? We take magnesium because we need to absorb all we can. We certainly don't need to restrict the absorption process.

So then, my questions become, how much do you take daily, and with food or empty stomach? And do you still use topical as well as oral?

I almost always take all supplements and meds immediately after a meal or snack (unless there is a special reason not to do that, such as taking Armour before breakfast). If you're taking any meds though, check for interactions, because magnesium can interfere with the absorption of certain antibiotics, calcium channel blockers, diuretics, and few others. I take most of them immediately after breakfast.

I take 200 mag of magnesium citrate (more might cause D) and 200 mg of magnesium glycinate after breakfast. Either after lunch or after a snack just before bedtime, I take another 200 mg of magnesium glycinate (unless I use any topical magnesium). If I use topical magnesium, I spray it on at least 15 or 20 minutes before taking a shower

I'm still using the Vitacost magnesium glycinate, and I'm guessing that after I use the Doctor's Best product for a while, I may be able to cut down on the dose (but that's just a guess).

Note that you may not need as much supplemental magnesium as I use. I have greatly reduced absorbability for magnesium because magnesium is primarily absorbed in the terminal ileum and colon. My colon is missing, and so are several inches worth of my terminal ileum. That's why YMMV.

And that's why the information that Gabes posted about dosing is much more appropriate than what I'm using, because I'm not a typical user (because of missing parts that compromise absorption abilities).

Has your hand stopped locking up since you discontinued? I'm gonna guess YES!!

Yes, you guessed correctly. The problem slowly faded away, and it was mostly gone after a few weeks. It took several months though, before it completely resolved. It hasn't happened since then (in over 4 years).

We have a lot of educating to do, but if yours is anything like my PCP, she doesn't want input.......especially from a lowly RN. Duh!!!

I hear you. I had to switch PCPs because my doctor got all bent out of shape when I told him that I had written a book about MC. In his view, non-medical professionals obviously shouldn't be writing anything about a medical issue. When I met my new PCP, he apparently recognized my name, and the first thing he said was, "I read your book, and I believe every word in it." And then he went on to tell me how he and his entire family have switched to the type of diet most of us here follow, and they're doing well on it. If I remember correctly, he has a daughter with celiac disease and a son with UC. I was stunned, to say the least. At any rate, I knew immediately that I had found a doctor I could trust. And as expected, he has been a pleasure to work with, and very helpful.

And TY for reminding me about the topical MG. It seems I got lazy and it dries my already dry skin out quite a bit, but compared to RLS, that's nothing.

I've been using Ancient Minerals Magnesium Oil and it never seems to completely soak in (it stays oily, so it certainly doesn't dry my skin), so that's why I always shower after applying it. Maybe I need to switch to the lotion. Anyone have any recommendations on that?

Here's another reason to be taking a magnesium supplement: I recently came across what I consider to be a very important discovery. I intended to post a new topic about this, but I forgot to do it (too many things going on for my feeble mind to keep track of everything). It appears that there is a very important reason why anyone who has MC (or any IBD) should be taking magnesium — it helps to suppress T cell activity (and of course, T cell activity is what causes the inflammation that results in the development of MC). I believe I'll start a new topic on this, now that you have reminded me about it.

Abstract
The magnesium transporter 1 (MAGT1) is a critical regulator of basal intracellular free Mg2+ levels. Individuals with genetic deficiencies in MAGT1 have high levels of Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) and a predisposition to lymphoma. We show that decreased intracellular free Mg2+ causes defective expression of the natural killer activating receptor NKG2D in natural killer (NK) and CD8+ T cells and impairs cytolytic responses against EBV. Remarkably, magnesium supplementation in MAGT1-deficient patients restores intracellular free Mg2+ and NKG2D while concurrently reducing EBV-infected cells in vivo, demonstrating a link between NKG2D cytolytic activity and EBV antiviral immunity in humans. Moreover, these findings reveal a specific molecular function of free basal intracellular Mg2+ in eukaryotic cells.

That research obviously focused on the beneficial effects of magnesium in preventing/controlling Epstein-Barr virus activity, but it also appears to provide evidence that magnesium should be a part of any treatment program for all IBDs. IOW, defective Killer T cells and CD8+ T cells are the inflammatory lymphocytes that infiltrate the mucosa of our intestines to promote the inflammation that results in the development of MC. So we can't necessarily conclude that a magnesium deficiency causes MC, but it certainly appears that magnesium supplementation might help to suppress the inflammation that causes it.

Mg2+ regulates cytotoxic functions of NK and CD8 T cells in chronic EBV infection through NKG2D

Sorry about the long posts, but MC is a complex disease, and I almost always get carried away when writing about it.

Tex

[JFR]

I take 600 mg's of magnesium glycinate, 200mg's 3 times a day, all around meal times. I have been using Kirkman Labs magnesium glycinate but I think I will switch to Doctor's Best when I run out of Kirkman's because it is a lot less expensive. I trust Kirkman labs but Drs Best also seems to be a trustworthy brand.

Jean

[Rosie]

Well, am I royally pissed that I have been taking Vitacost Buffered Chelated Magnesium Glycinate for the past few months and wondering why I seem to be having looser BMs and poorer control of my nighttime leg cramps. I was looking carefully at my diet and wondering if chocolate was causing problems. Now I find out that it probably was the Vitacost Buffered Chelated Magnesium. So I gave up chocolate for the past month for (probably) nothing!! I typically am a careful label reader, and just now went to look the bottle to read the ingredients again. It says "Magnesium (as TRAACS magnesium glycinate chelate buffered). It says NOTHING about it containing magnesium oxide on the label. I even went to the Vitacost web site and it carefully says NOTHING there about their Buffered Magnesium Glycinate containing magnesium oxide. I checked some other brands of Buffered Magnesium Glycinate, and they were honest about saying they contained both magnesium glycinate and magnesium oxide. I had been using Kirkman's for quite a while, but found the Vitacost at the local Walgreens and it was cheaper and more convenient and I thought it was the same product. No wonder I had to up the dosage to try and control my nighttime leg cramps. Since I was up to 800 mg a day, and still having periodic leg cramps, this explains why I was having some deterioration in bowel function......

This is why I still come onto the Forum periodically, as I continue to find very helpful information. I'm going to get another either Kirkman or Drs Best magnesium glycinate......... and start eating chocolate again.........

Rosie

[tex]

Hi Rosie,

Sorry that you were also caught in this little escapade. I have a hunch that the use of this product for most of a year played a prominent role in my magnesium deficiency problem that finally came to a head a few months ago. Fortunately I was also taking magnesium citrate, so that slowed down the development of the deficit (but also probably made figuring out the problem more difficult). At any rate, this is surely why my magnesium reserves slowly became an accident waiting to happen, so that it was easy for the antibiotic to topple the rest of the dominoes.

I've been trying to remember where I saw the information about Vitacost's lack of transparency on their magnesium glycinate label. I finally remembered. It was in an Amazon review. This is just some unknown individual's opinion, but he seems to know what he is talking about, because the other information he presents in the review is right on target. Here's a small part of what he wrote:

VITACOST TRANSPARENCY ISSUE: The magnesium contained in Vitacost Chelated Magnesium Tablets (180 tablets) is buffered. It is a blend of magnesium glycinate and magnesium oxide. When questioned about the buffering agent, the company took the position that it didn't have to disclose that information because it is patented. I do not believe the company can legally fail to disclose the buffering agent. I believe the company is obligated, under F.D.A. regulations, to disclose that information and list that buffering agent in the product's supplement facts panel on the bottle. Not infrequently, companies will buffer their magnesium glycinate with other forms of magnesium, like magnesium oxide, which is an inferior and cheaper form of magnesium. The problem arises because Vitacost has failed to disclose, on its label, website, or product page, the buffering agent. In my opinion, this is a clear deception by Vitacost that creates a serious transparency issue for the company.

http://www.amazon.com/Vitacost-Chelated ... B007PLJO36

You have to scroll way down the page to find the information in that quote, because it's a long review, full of a lot of good information about magnesium supplements in general.

And he is quite correct of course. A pharmaceutical company is not required to list the inactive ingredients of their products, but FDA regulations require that they list the type and amount of active ingredients, and magnesium oxide would be considered to be an active ingredient, since this is a magnesium supplement. Clearly, their label is in violation of FDA regulations.

Enjoy that chocolate.

Tex

[brandy]

Hi Shar,

I'm going to switch to the Drs Best brand of magnesium glycinate. I've taken both the carbonate and glycinate. Glycinate is definitely gentler. When I lean towards constipation I take the carbonate. The glycinate will give me perfect normans. Carbonate form I take 400 mg, Glycinate form I take 600 mg to get same result.

My main purpose for taking magnesium is for adrenal fatigue.....waking up at 2:00 am. If I don't take any magnesium I wake up at 2:00 am then wake up at 4:00 am. Taking 400 mg carbonate or 600 mg glycinate and I sleep through the night. I take entire dose between 8:00 and 9:00 pm with a snack.

I'm presently taking KAL brand but will switch to Drs Best due to cost. The KAL brand does not say GF.

Shar....I add 2 cups of epsom salts to the bath per instructions.

I have an oil based mag in the cupboard and also lotion based. I'll rub the oil based mag on sports injuries but I don't like the feel of it. I love the Morton unscented epsom Lotion (next to epsom salts at walmart). It absorbs and is not oily but I don't think it is as effective as the oil based mag.

[dfpowell]

My concern with Drs Best Products is they do not say anything about being soy free, so I discontinued using them.

[Gabes-Apg]

Donna,
iHerb is great site to confirm ingredients. It is the best I have seen for listing inactive ingredients.

http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-Magn ... Tablets/15

My guess is the reason they can not declare a 'soy free' statement is due to the inclusion vege based magnesium stearate. It is near impossible for any manufacturer to confirm if it has Soy... (Pharma, supplements etc) a lot of gluten free products use mag stearate, so it is not easy to totally avoid.

[Rosie]

So I was doing some calculations on Vitacost's Buffered Magnesium Glycinate. They don't say what percentage of the product is magnesium glycinate and what percentage is magnesium oxide. However, other brands of buffered magnesium glycinate put magnesium glycinate as the first ingredient and magnesium oxide as the second. This is probably by weight. In looking up the molecular formulas of those two forms of magnesium, magnesium oxide has a molecular weight of 40.3 and magnesium glycinate is 172.4. So magnesium oxide is about 14% the weight of the glycinate. That means by weight, if there is at least 15% glycinate and 85% oxide, they could still list the glycinate as the first ingredient! Only about 4% of the oxide form is absorbed. So it is entirely possible that the Vitacost's Buffered Magnesium Glycinate only provides 15% of the magnesium as the more expensive glycinate and 85% as the very cheap and poorly absorbed oxide. So if I was taking 400 mg of Vitacost Buffered Magnesium glycinate, I may only have been really getting 60 mg of true magnesium glycinate, with the rest being the oxide! Of course Vitacost won't divulge that information, which makes me even more suspicious that they are cheating their customers and misrepresenting their product.

Well, the bottom line is that I won't be buying any Vitacost products anymore.

Rosie