Hi everyone! I am having the worst joint pain I have ever had in my life. I cannot even begin to tell you how frustrated i am being that I am only 22 years old and I am having difficulty walking up the stairs While I attribute this most likely to MC, I question also whether I have either a vitamin deficiency or RA. The pain is symmetrical and includes my fingers, knuckles, wrists, knees, ankles, elbows, ankles, etc. Does anyone have any thoughts?
With that said, I need to change my diet. While i try to eat as healthy as possible, I believe that a completely "clean" diet free of refined sugars will certainly help. Has anyone tried the autoimmune paleo diet? Would just regular paleo be enough? Autoimmune paleo is extremely restrictive but I will do it if it will make all of my symptoms go away.
If anyone has any experience with this or thoughts on the subject please comment. I feel very anxious about this. I have an appointment on Monday but in the meantime I have to do something.
Thanks!
Leanne
Paleo vs. Autoimmune Paleo Joint Pain
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
I'm terribly sorry to read about the pain and difficulties you are going through and at such a young age. I hope you quickly find an answer to what is going wrong!
We're all different and what works for me might not help others, but I'm following the paleo diet at the moment, with a twist in that along with dairy I'm also avoiding beef and lamb. I've read that some feel the allergy connection between the two, dairy and red meat, is stronger than often believed. I think it might have been paleo writer Professor Cordain that mentioned that in one of his books. Regardless, since making the diet changes 2 and 1/2 months ago, my energy levels have increased some, and I've specifically noticed some mild joint pain, particularly in the knees has disappeared. My joints are stronger. Along with that I also walk barefoot/ and ground with an earthing pad which helps with joint issues I've noticed. The pad also helped nicely with the gut as I coudl be well to the gut if I grounded long enough, around 90 minutes, which could be inconvenient. That's my story with the diet and earthing. Oh, of late I've been nearly completely well with the gut on this modified paleo diet. I'm not recovered though.
I guess to add I was able to get the gut well when eating grass fed beef and eating cheese, which was part of my last diet idea, but never could feel recovered. My energy levels were far to low, and I was feeling sore all over more often than I cared. It adds to my confusion with my condition.
We're all different and what works for me might not help others, but I'm following the paleo diet at the moment, with a twist in that along with dairy I'm also avoiding beef and lamb. I've read that some feel the allergy connection between the two, dairy and red meat, is stronger than often believed. I think it might have been paleo writer Professor Cordain that mentioned that in one of his books. Regardless, since making the diet changes 2 and 1/2 months ago, my energy levels have increased some, and I've specifically noticed some mild joint pain, particularly in the knees has disappeared. My joints are stronger. Along with that I also walk barefoot/ and ground with an earthing pad which helps with joint issues I've noticed. The pad also helped nicely with the gut as I coudl be well to the gut if I grounded long enough, around 90 minutes, which could be inconvenient. That's my story with the diet and earthing. Oh, of late I've been nearly completely well with the gut on this modified paleo diet. I'm not recovered though.
I guess to add I was able to get the gut well when eating grass fed beef and eating cheese, which was part of my last diet idea, but never could feel recovered. My energy levels were far to low, and I was feeling sore all over more often than I cared. It adds to my confusion with my condition.
Hi Leanne,
I have no experience with the AI paleo diet, but hopefully someone who has will respond to share some of their insight. In general, the problem with the paleo diet for MC is that we can't eat everything that the paleo diet allows, because we have to restrict fiber. The additional restrictions of the AI paleo program should offer additional healing advantages, but I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the details of that particular diet.
With symmetrical arthritis symptoms there is a possibility that you might have RA. My arthritis symptoms were definitely severe (and debilitating at times), but they were not symmetrical. I suppose there's a possibility that your symptoms may be symmetrical simply because they are so severe.
Is the pain worse first thing in the morning, and then it diminishes somewhat with movement/exercise as the day goes on (ala osteoarthritis), or does it become worse as you use the joints during the day (as with RA)?
Regarding Blueberry's comments about beef and red meat — enough of us are sensitive to beef that I have a hunch there may indeed be some sort of connection to dairy or even gluten. I have no idea if the connection is due to molecular mimicry of certain peptides, or a more direct connection, but many of us have problems with beef. I'm not sure this apples to all red meat though, because a sensitivity to beef isn't always associated with a sensitivity to pork, for example.
Tex
I have no experience with the AI paleo diet, but hopefully someone who has will respond to share some of their insight. In general, the problem with the paleo diet for MC is that we can't eat everything that the paleo diet allows, because we have to restrict fiber. The additional restrictions of the AI paleo program should offer additional healing advantages, but I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the details of that particular diet.
With symmetrical arthritis symptoms there is a possibility that you might have RA. My arthritis symptoms were definitely severe (and debilitating at times), but they were not symmetrical. I suppose there's a possibility that your symptoms may be symmetrical simply because they are so severe.
Is the pain worse first thing in the morning, and then it diminishes somewhat with movement/exercise as the day goes on (ala osteoarthritis), or does it become worse as you use the joints during the day (as with RA)?
Regarding Blueberry's comments about beef and red meat — enough of us are sensitive to beef that I have a hunch there may indeed be some sort of connection to dairy or even gluten. I have no idea if the connection is due to molecular mimicry of certain peptides, or a more direct connection, but many of us have problems with beef. I'm not sure this apples to all red meat though, because a sensitivity to beef isn't always associated with a sensitivity to pork, for example.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Tex,
I guess pork is red meat, even though I've thought of it from the old commercial of being "the other white meat". Pork has not been a problem for my gut. Strangely pork was an irritant for my gums early on in the diet. The gum would hurt and bleed after eating a pork chop. I'm guessing now that might have been due to pork being chewy and the gums being tender after being ill for this long. Just a guess. That problem has resolved of late.
I guess pork is red meat, even though I've thought of it from the old commercial of being "the other white meat". Pork has not been a problem for my gut. Strangely pork was an irritant for my gums early on in the diet. The gum would hurt and bleed after eating a pork chop. I'm guessing now that might have been due to pork being chewy and the gums being tender after being ill for this long. Just a guess. That problem has resolved of late.
I have a hunch you're right. My mouth was inflamed too, back when I was reacting. I never noticed any bleeding, but my mouth seemed tender, and I occasionally had mouth sores. And often, my tongue was slightly swollen. I mostly lived on pork and potatoes when I was recovering.
Tex
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
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if you do a search for 'Paleo' or AIP you will see previous discussions on this
(Red text in the header area 'Search the Archives of this Discussion Board')
long story short, normal paleo is not always suitable for MC'ers.. Nuts and uncooked greens. there are quite here a few that do a modified AIP,
Experience thus far is that no published eating plan (AIP, fodmaps, BRAT etc etc) will work totally for MC'ers, as each individual has different food triggers.. you have to tweak/modify to suit your safe foods and lifestyle etc
in the early stages of healing, bland, well cooked, low amount of ingredients, lots of good animal protein is what works best for most....
meat and 3-4 veges, (dont need cookbooks for that..) home made bone broth makes a fantastic base for soups, stews, and is filled with loads of ingredients that help the gut heal.
In relation to the joint pain issues, I had the same issue when I had too much inflammation in my body and Vit D3, magnesium deficiency...
Have you stopped eating gluten?? if so it can take 3-6 months for the gluten antibodies to leave your body, during this time there can be a few niggles etc as the body clears the toxins ... eating a low inflammation bland well cooked eating plan and nurturing your body will assist in the this transition process...
(Red text in the header area 'Search the Archives of this Discussion Board')
long story short, normal paleo is not always suitable for MC'ers.. Nuts and uncooked greens. there are quite here a few that do a modified AIP,
Experience thus far is that no published eating plan (AIP, fodmaps, BRAT etc etc) will work totally for MC'ers, as each individual has different food triggers.. you have to tweak/modify to suit your safe foods and lifestyle etc
in the early stages of healing, bland, well cooked, low amount of ingredients, lots of good animal protein is what works best for most....
meat and 3-4 veges, (dont need cookbooks for that..) home made bone broth makes a fantastic base for soups, stews, and is filled with loads of ingredients that help the gut heal.
In relation to the joint pain issues, I had the same issue when I had too much inflammation in my body and Vit D3, magnesium deficiency...
Have you stopped eating gluten?? if so it can take 3-6 months for the gluten antibodies to leave your body, during this time there can be a few niggles etc as the body clears the toxins ... eating a low inflammation bland well cooked eating plan and nurturing your body will assist in the this transition process...
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
When looking at paleo vs. the AIP, the AIP eliminates nightshades (and a few other things). It seems like joint pain and nightshades (things like peppers, white potatoes, tomatoes, eggplant) go hand in hand for a lot of people. I don't know if AIP is necessary for you, but testing how you do with nightshades could be something to explore (in addition to ditching gluten and anything you know you're sensitive to, if you haven't already).
Here's a blog post with a little more info: http://www.thepaleomom.com/2013/08/what ... hades.html
Kristen
Here's a blog post with a little more info: http://www.thepaleomom.com/2013/08/what ... hades.html
Kristen
Just to quickly mention, agree likely a good idea to avoid the nightshade family when having lots of difficulty. I avoided potatoes early on in my diet, and of late have added them into my diet and when I did noticed I became fairly well to the gut. It's probably just a coincidence that this happened but for now potatoes are one of my favorite foods!, even if I am eating them rather blandly- just sprinkling salt onto. 
Sorry this took me to long to respond to. Tex---my joint pain is always symmetrical and gets worse as the day goes on. I had blood work done yesterday so we will see what the results say. Is RA common with MC? I am thinking of eliminating nightshades for awhile and see how I do. I agree with everyone that paleo is not necessarily right for me, nor is AIP. I think the best thing for me to do is to eat good sources of proteins, small amounts of cooked fruits and veggies, and rice and quinoa. Is there a meal plan on here anywhere? That suggests portion sizes/ how much fruit and veggies to eat in a day. I know that everyone is different, but I am just looking for a guideline.
IBD-associated arthritis is very common with MC, but RA is not nearly as common. It's not rare though, either, because any IBD increases our risk of developing other AI diseases. IBD-associated arthritis usually resolves as we get our MC symptoms under control and our intestines have time to heal. Whether or not the form of arthritis you have will resolve as your MC symptoms are controlled may depend on whether you have an elevated Rheumatoid Factor (RF) result on the tests ordered by your doctor.
I had major arthritis problems when I was reacting, but my symptoms resolved as my gut healed. I have no idea what my RF was at the time (back in the year 2000), but it was negative when tested in 2009. I never stopped eating potatoes. If your RF is positive though, you may need to avoid nightshades.
General recommendations for a recovery diet aim for a bland (IOW no spicy foods, and avoid condiments, sauces, etc.), simple diet consisting of 1 or 2 safe meats, and small servings of overcooked, peeled vegetables, with minimal fruit. Most of us can tolerate veggies such as carrots, squash, and sweet potatoes. Broccoli is usually safe, but it can cause gas, so for those who have a problem getting rid of gas, broccoli may not be a good choice. The idea is to minimize fiber and sugar, so it's safer to go heavy on the meat, and eat small servings of vegetables. Fruit is typically loaded with both fiber and sugar, and the type of sugar in fruit (fructose) tends to be the most difficult for us to digest when we are reacting. IOW, fruit carries a risk of a double whammy — both fiber and sugar, thus a need to minimize fruit in our diet while recovering. We don't have to totally avoid well-cooked fruit, but we have to minimize the amounts. Most of us can tolerate bananas, and that is the only raw fruit that is generally safe. However, not everyone can tolerate bananas, and if we eat too much of them, we can overdo the fiber.
In general, the simpler and blander the diet, and the lower the fiber content, the more likely we are to recover sooner, rather than later. Salt is OK, but be careful with pepper and other spices. Rice is usually the most likely grain to be safely tolerated, but not everyone can tolerate rice, so keep that in mind if you don't seem to be responding to the diet. Some of us are sensitive to chicken, so turkey is usually a safer choice during recovery. Most of us can tolerate pork, but not everyone. A safer choice is lamb, because sensitivity to lamb is extremely rare. That also applies to venison, goose, duck, pheasant, rabbit, quail, etc. — virtually all of us can safely tolerate those meats. Beef seems to be the most likely meat to cause problems, and for those who are sensitive to beef, bison is also usually a problem because most bison carry DNA from domestic livestock these days.
Many of us react to tuna and salmon, and certain other fish, (but not necessarily all fish), but shellfish are usually OK (unless we happen to be allergic to them). Quinoa is safe for most of us, provided that it is gluten-free. Be sure to buy a Kosher brand of quinoa, because they are GF.
That should be enough to allow you to design a starting diet that will work for you. Keep a food and reaction journal though, in case you need to fine-tune your diet as you go.
Tex
I had major arthritis problems when I was reacting, but my symptoms resolved as my gut healed. I have no idea what my RF was at the time (back in the year 2000), but it was negative when tested in 2009. I never stopped eating potatoes. If your RF is positive though, you may need to avoid nightshades.
General recommendations for a recovery diet aim for a bland (IOW no spicy foods, and avoid condiments, sauces, etc.), simple diet consisting of 1 or 2 safe meats, and small servings of overcooked, peeled vegetables, with minimal fruit. Most of us can tolerate veggies such as carrots, squash, and sweet potatoes. Broccoli is usually safe, but it can cause gas, so for those who have a problem getting rid of gas, broccoli may not be a good choice. The idea is to minimize fiber and sugar, so it's safer to go heavy on the meat, and eat small servings of vegetables. Fruit is typically loaded with both fiber and sugar, and the type of sugar in fruit (fructose) tends to be the most difficult for us to digest when we are reacting. IOW, fruit carries a risk of a double whammy — both fiber and sugar, thus a need to minimize fruit in our diet while recovering. We don't have to totally avoid well-cooked fruit, but we have to minimize the amounts. Most of us can tolerate bananas, and that is the only raw fruit that is generally safe. However, not everyone can tolerate bananas, and if we eat too much of them, we can overdo the fiber.
In general, the simpler and blander the diet, and the lower the fiber content, the more likely we are to recover sooner, rather than later. Salt is OK, but be careful with pepper and other spices. Rice is usually the most likely grain to be safely tolerated, but not everyone can tolerate rice, so keep that in mind if you don't seem to be responding to the diet. Some of us are sensitive to chicken, so turkey is usually a safer choice during recovery. Most of us can tolerate pork, but not everyone. A safer choice is lamb, because sensitivity to lamb is extremely rare. That also applies to venison, goose, duck, pheasant, rabbit, quail, etc. — virtually all of us can safely tolerate those meats. Beef seems to be the most likely meat to cause problems, and for those who are sensitive to beef, bison is also usually a problem because most bison carry DNA from domestic livestock these days.
Many of us react to tuna and salmon, and certain other fish, (but not necessarily all fish), but shellfish are usually OK (unless we happen to be allergic to them). Quinoa is safe for most of us, provided that it is gluten-free. Be sure to buy a Kosher brand of quinoa, because they are GF.
That should be enough to allow you to design a starting diet that will work for you. Keep a food and reaction journal though, in case you need to fine-tune your diet as you go.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.