Sunday House Call

terre · Post by **terre** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:30 pm

I was watching "Sunday House Call" this past Sunday and they had a discussion on probiotics.

They said gut problems are hard to reverse....that once gut bacterium falls below a certain level, it's as good as gone. They indicated that taking probiotics wouldn't help the situation. Hope I'm relaying info correctly.

What is your take?

Terre

Post by **tex** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:55 pm

According to my research (which I did years ago), they're right on target. It's a proven fact that bacteria can only become established (as colonies) in the gut if they are able to attach to the walls of the gut. And they can only attach if they were created (by their normal cell division process) and raised in a human gut. Bacteria raised in a test tube or a petri dish (or a vat, or whatever) cannot attach to a human gut, so they cannot establish a colony in a human gut. They may be able to stick around for a day or 3, but they cannot effectively reproduce, so as they die, they are purged from the system before they can even carve their initials in the walls of the intestines.

The bottom line is that probiotic bacteria are strictly transients in the gut, they can never be residents. I believe that Polly first posted about this requirement 9 or 10 years ago, but I can't find that old post at the moment.

Tex

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:07 pm

the other aspect to this is that everyone is different, the water supply and types of bugs in one area of a country, can be different a few thousand miles away, never mind the differences between different countries etc.

what we are born with, what happens during our lifetime, and how this affects the gut - is why mainstream treatments dont work
the other aspect to this is 'healing' the gut has to be in a good state for anything to happen. if it is majorily inflammed and you dont have the nutrients to heal, probiotics wont help that.

terre · Post by **terre** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:00 pm

So probiotics just help on a temporary basis (or not at all)? Why would it help to take them after taking antibiotics as I've been told to for years?

As far as MC, the damaged villi and leaky gut can be healed if foods are avoided that are the cause? If one ever reaches remission and some of the offending foods are added back in, why would one be able to ever eat them again? Sorry if I'm off base Tex, it's time to reread your book!

I strive for remission and hope to reach it one day! As silly as this may sound, my mother was in the nursing home for the last year of her life due to Alzheimer's and thank goodness she never had MC (as I changed many a diaper).....as I grow old(er) and there comes a time I can't be in control of what I eat....I dread that someone will have to care for me with MC. Don't mean to be morbid (I know some people can't go there)....just a fact of life.

Terre

Post by **tex** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:59 pm

Terre wrote:So probiotics just help on a temporary basis (or not at all)? Why would it help to take them after taking antibiotics as I've been told to for years?

Antibiotics will kill off anywhere from a few to most of the gut bacteria (depending on the antibiotic or antibiotics used, length of treatment, and current gut biome demographics. That can leave a lot of empty "parking spaces" on the gut walls, and opportunistic pathogenic bacteria may choose to attach and establish a colony there if the spaces remain open long enough. While probiotic bactieria cannot actually successfully "attach", they can temporarily fill those spaces to help prevent pathogenic bacteria from taking over before survivors of the original population can expand their numbers to fill those spaces, or they can be repopulated with the same types of bacteria that originally thrived there from the paltient's environment.

IOW, most of the types of bacteria in our gut can be found around us in our homes and many other places because our mates, relatives, friends, or coworkers, etc., also host those same bacteria strains, and they will eventually repopulate our gut. Probiotics can sometimes help to prevent something "bad" from moving in and taking over before that happens. Our original gut bacteria biome normally develops from "inoculation" during our trip down our mother's birth canal as we are born, and from our surroundings (sibings, etc.) during the first few months of our life.

C-section-delivered babies are at a big disadvantage because of their sterile delivery. Their immune system has a much more difficult time during the initial "programming".

Terre wrote:As far as MC, the damaged villi and leaky gut can be healed if foods are avoided that are the cause?

Yes.

Terre wrote:If one ever reaches remission and some of the offending foods are added back in, why would one be able to ever eat them again?

That depends on the foods. Gluten, and foods that contain peptides very similar to the 33-mer peptide (such as casein) and various other peptides in gluten that cause most celiacs to react, will always be a problem, because gluten causes increased intestinal permeability for everyone (not just celiacs). Some of the other foods are problems simply because the increased intestinal permeability allows some of their peptides to enter the blood stream and therefore become the target of an immune system reaction. However, their peptides do not normally cause increased intestinal permeability, so after the gut heals sufficiently, some of those foods may be tolerated again (provided that the diet contains no traces of gluten or any of the other permanent food sensitivities such as casein and soy.

Note that this explanation (specifically pertaining to the claim that the digestion of these other foods does not normally result in peptides that cause increased intestinal permeability) is strictly my own theory to explain why this works. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever published any research either confirming or disputing this observation, but based on our experiences this appears to be a logical explanation for why we are able to eat certain foods after healing. It's definitely not medically-proven fact, however.

Examples of foods that may be a problem during reactions but can often be tolerated after a year or 2 of healing has occurred include yeast, eggs, beef, and possibly others. All of the foods that are initially problems due to fiber or sugar content are typically tolerated after enough healing occurs, though in many cases quantities may have to be limited. But these foods never caused the production of antibodies in the first place — they merely irritate the gut, and while they may perpetuate existing inflammation, they do not cause inflammation. But remember that we are all different, and some of us do not heal completely either because of cross-contamination in the diet or permanent damage to the gut.

I hope that some of this is helpful and doesn't just add to the confusion.

Tex

terre · Post by **terre** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:53 pm

Thank you so much for your reply.....totally helps.

Sometimes I start researching one topic and just start confusing myself the more read. I Hope I'm not the only one!

Terre

twirlitgirl · Post by **twirlitgirl** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:42 pm

I am always learning here, and I really appreciate it, sometimes I feel so alone with this disease around my family but I keep a positive attitude and do the best I can with staying healthy and customizing what works for me from all the suggestions here. don't know what my quality of life would be right now, if I hadn't found this forum. No words can express the gratitude I feel for having somewhere to turn when I am confused , thank-you Terre for asking these questions and Tex and Gabes for your answers in terms I can understand. All the best to you all, take care
.

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:14 pm

i think this study has been shared before, i thought it was appropriate as it links in to what we are saying how one thing can work for one, but not for another...

http://www.gutmicrobiotawatch.org/en/20 ... ave-on-us/

Researchers focused on post-meal responses and on how blood sugar levels changed in the two hours following a meal. The data they gathered revealed that individuals have vastly different responses to the same food. For instance, some people’s glycaemic responses spiked after eating a tomato, whereas other individuals did not experience the same effect. “Our first surprise was to discover on a very large scale the enormous variability we saw in people’s responses to even identical meals. There are profound differences between individuals. In some cases, individuals even have opposite responses and this is a big hole in the literature,” Segal pointed out.

twirlitgirl · Post by **twirlitgirl** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:58 am

thanks Gabes for that very interesting article,sure makes alot of sense to me, first time reading it, so maybe I wasn't the only one having not seen this before. appreciate you passing it on. have a great day

Erica P-G · Post by **Erica P-G** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:04 pm

Examples of foods that may be a problem during reactions but can often be tolerated after a year or 2 of healing has occurred include yeast, eggs, beef, and possibly others. All of the foods that are initially problems due to fiber or sugar content are typically tolerated after enough healing occurs, though in many cases quantities may have to be limited. But these foods never caused the production of antibodies in the first place — they merely irritate the gut, and while they may perpetuate existing inflammation, they do not cause inflammation. But remember that we are all different, and some of us do not heal completely either because of cross-contamination in the diet or permanent damage to the gut.

I hope that some of this is helpful and doesn't just add to the confusion.

Tex

So to be a little more clearer on this, if a person does an Enterolab testing and they have numbers above 10 eith the Gluten, Dairy, Soy and Egg, and test high reaction to Beef, Tuna and Almonds.....then that person should really not ever expect to ingest those items again without instigating a flare up and or perpetually irritating the gut even after a year or more has passed, correct? Or am I all wet and the only suspect we need to eliminate 100% is gluten once the gut has sufficient time for healing (ie: perhaps 5 years). I also understand due to cross-contamination that some people may never get to the 100% healing marker.

Thanks!
Erica

Post by **tex** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:14 pm

Erica,

There are never any guarantees, because we are all different. But some of us (not all) may be able to reintroduce some of the foods I mentioned after sufficient healing has occurred, especially if they only eat those foods occasionally (on a rotation basis), or as in the case of eggs, only use them in baked goods.

Probably the big limiting factor here is inflammation levels. Those who truly eliminate/minimize inflammation in their body may be able to successfully reintroduce some of those foods. Those who have a higher chronic inflammation level (even though it may be under the threshold at which they begin to react) will always be more sensitive and less likely to be able to expand their diet because their immune system never actually gets an opportunity to relax long enough to settle back down to a "normal" alert status.

And gluten will always be off limits (IMO). Anyone who thinks otherwise (anyone who feels that they are invincible and can handle gluten) always eventually finds themselves back in a flare that can take quite a while to resolve because of all the accumulated damage to their intestines that occurred before they began to react.

At least that's my take on the situation.

Tex

Erica P-G · Post by **Erica P-G** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:31 pm

Thanks Tex,

That clears my airwaves about this

I'm starting to feel my situation may take a bit longer for my body to tolerate much. Such as in the way of a tiny hint of mozz on something or the egg I thought I could handle but a few days later got a seeping lesion behind the curve of my ear that opens-crusts over- and then closes which can takes days to do....or perhaps it was a tad bit of flour in the air after baking an item for my husband. Perhaps these are high histamine symptoms and I am confusing them with gut sensitivities.

The more I listen to my body sometimes, the more I get confused actually. As with Parenting I wish this came with a manual too!!

I will continually stay gluten free....
Hugs
Erica

jlbattin · Post by **jlbattin** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:25 pm

Thanks for asking those questions, Erica. I was wondering also. So, I will always stay gluten and dairy free, but I am wondering about the soy (reintroducing it at some point). It's not really a good thing, I know, but there are just so many options that go away when eating out (not that I do that much anymore anyway)!

I did eat a salad for the first time over the weekend. I went with my husband to IHop, and had the only three things on the menu I could have: bacon, seasoned fries, and a salad. Their salad is the mixture kind (with the purple cabbage), not just Iceberg or Romaine lettuce. I took my own salad dressing. I did ok with it. I had a little discomfort the next day, but that is all. I think that's just due to the reintroduction of the food for my body to digest (I've experienced these feelings before when introducing new foods again and it goes away after eating the food a couple of times. Next time, I won't order it if it's the mixture. I don't think I was quite ready for the purple cabbage.

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:37 pm

Erica (and others)

I am confusing them with gut sensitivities.

keep in mind that inflammation has many triggers and can start in places OTHER than the gut and can affect other organs, and not necessarily have obvious symptoms affecting the gut.
and these other triggers and things going on in our bodies will affect how the gut reacts to things... and it can change day to day

It is how our body reacts to inflammation, and 'balances it' / 'clears the excess inflammation' that becomes key.

Our ability to handle triggers (whether they be food, environmental etc) depends on what is happening in our bodies on that day.
or even at different times in the day, depending on our metabolism, what our sleep was like the night before, and the weather that day...

due to my medical history/conditions, I struggle to expand my eating plan. (it has been over 4 years since my last colonscopy said the MC was in remission) my body struggles with any inflammation and healing from it.
In mid december a very small intake of gluten and then anesthestic for dental procedure, didnt affect my gut, it attacked my nervous system, really badly. I had a big loss of co-ordination and major impact to cognitive function. 6 weeks later I am still struggling.

Most people here with good healing can then expand their eating plan
there is the reality that there are a couple of people that despite their best efforts, and trying various medications can not. (gloria and lesley come to mind) I would be very wary of knowlingly having major triggers anymore than once a year
and in the case of Vera Zizzle where there are multiple conditions cycling through flare situations.

a manual would be handy but some reliable (affordable) diagnostic tools would be way way better!!