DAO supplements?

[grhandlan@comcast.net]

Anyone have experience with DAO supplements?

[Gabes-Apg]

As many members that are now in remission or 'stable' dont visit the board very often, a good way to get info is to use the search function and look at previous discussions

using the search function, here are some recent discussions that may be of interest...

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... hlight=dao
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... hlight=dao
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... hlight=dao

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... hlight=dao
this one Leah mentions taking DAO, might be worth sending her a PM if you have further questions

hope this helps

[crervin]

Thanks guys, was fixing to research this myself. Clearly Spring has sprung in my area. Was doing so well until last week (heat wave, flowers blooming), now my safe foods aren't even safe. It dawned on me yesterday, I starting feeling a bit nausus and food is going straight through....Hello Spring, thought I was glad to see you.

Gabes, thought about increasing my mag oil to 800 mg a day. Do you think that would be okay? I weigh 110 lbs. Right now, I apply about 400 mg in the morning and around 150 mg at night. I remember reading from Tex this is seen go reduce histamines in mice....

Taking 8,000 units of d3 daily.

[tex]

Martha,

Whenever I find some free time (providing that I'm in the proper frame of mind to write) I work on the second edition. Since this may be helpful for you, and it may take me another year or 2 to finish the book, I'll jump the gun and post a little info here. Here's a quote from the first draft of chapter 6:

The medical description of microscopic colitis attributes the inflammation associated with both lymphocytic colitis and collagenous colitis to T cell infiltration into the mucosal and sub-mucosal layers of the epithelial lining of the colon. While thickened collagen bands in the submucosal layer known as the lamina propria are diagnostic markers of collagenous colitis, it's not clear whether the increased thickness is a direct result of inflammation or merely a coincidental marker of CC. But what if the increased T cell presence is not always the primary source of inflammation?

What if the inflammation that triggers or perpetuates the clinical symptoms associated with MC (at least in some cases) is caused by inappropriate mast cell activity that results in the release of histamine, cytokines and other proinflammatory immune system agents? We know by experience (and this is verified by research) that inappropriate mast cell activity can promote inflammation in the intestines.1 But this was unknown when the original description of microscopic colitis was written, and of course the original description is still accepted by most medical professionals.

But there is compelling epidemiological evidence to suggest that mast cell-induced inflammation sufficient to cause or perpetuate an MC flare may indeed be a possible alternate inflammatory mechanism in many cases, especially in cases that do not respond to treatment methods that are otherwise typically effective.

But how could this happen, and more importantly, why would it happen?
Histamine is responsible for most of the classic allergy symptoms that we experience if we have a pollen allergy or some other type of allergy. The runny nose, watery eyes, itching, and in severe reactions, the anaphylactic symptoms such as airway restriction and breathing difficulties are caused by the release of histamine from mast cells, basophils, and eosinophils. The redness and swelling that develop following a mosquite bite or a wasp sting are due to the release of histamine in the tissues surrounding the bite or sting.

Histamine causes increased permeability of the small blood vessels (capillaries) in the area in order to allow white blood cells to pass from the capillaries into the surrounding tissues to engage any pathogens or toxins that might be present. The inflammation resulting from the histamine and the white cells, along with the fluids from the bloodstream that also flow into the area, cause the redness and swelling.

In the body, histamine is derived from histidine, which is an essential amino acid. Because humans cannot produce histidine, it must be present in the diet. However, certain species of gut bacteria can produce histidine, and it's conceivable that the evolutionary changes that have taken place in our gut bacteria profiles in recent decades due to increased antibiotic use and the expanded use of ingredients and chemicals in processed foods may play a part in the trend toward increasing histamine problems.

Many authorities have long suspected that MC may be caused by gut bacteria imbalances.
But to date, no researcher or research team has ever been able to verify that this is even a possibility, let alone likely. What follows is a theory — a description of a mechanism by which this might occur.

If histamine can cause increased permeability of blood vessels, then it doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to recognize that it may well also be capable of causing increased permeability of the intestines, because the epithelial lining of both blood vessels and the intestines are quite similar. And because the intestines are specifically designed so that nutrients can pass from the lumen (the interior volume of the intestines) into the blood vessels present in the intestinal walls, for distribution throughout the body, similarity of design of the 2 interfaces in order to accommodate this vital function would be expected.

We learned in the first edition of Microscopic Colitis that increased intestinal permeability is a side effect of gluten sensitivity that leads to the development of food sensitivities, so now we can see how excess histamine in the intestines could easily trigger existing food sensitivities, or possibly promote the development of additional food sensitivities. So now all that is lacking in this scenario in order to provide the potential for excessive histamine levels capable of causing a leaky gut and triggering intestinal inflammation is a gut bacteria population shift toward higher percentages of histidine-producing species, and a mechanism for promoting the conversion of histidine to histamine.. And it just so happens that such a mechanism happens to be very, very common in IBD patients — a magnesium deficiency.

Many MC cases that are unresponsive to treatment may be associated with an undiagnosed magnesium deficiency.
Magnesium deficiency is very common in the general population. In fact, many authorities insist that a majority of the population in developed countries are magnesium-deficient. And magnesium deficiency is even more likely among MC (and other IBD) patients because not only do both the malabsorption problem and diarrhea associated with the disease deplete magnesium, but the most common medical treatment used to suppress the inflammation, corticosteroids, also depletes magnesium.

Histidine decarboxylase is the enzyme used by the body to convert histidine into histamine. It's known that a magnesium deficiency increases the activity of histidine decarboxylase, thereby increasing the conversion of histidine into histamine. But a magnesium deficiency can lead to a double whammy in this situation, because it also reduces the activity of diamine oxidase enxyme (DAO). As we discussed in the first edition of Microscopic Colitis, DAO is the enzyme primarily used by the body to purge unused or excessive amounts of histamine in circulation, in order to prevent the possibility of a potentially harmful histamine buildup.

Here's reference number 1, from that quote:

1. De Wintera, B. Y., van den Wijngaardb, R. M., & de Jongeb, W. J. (2011). Intestinal mast cells in gut inflammation and motility disturbances. Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA) - Molecular Basis of Disease, (1822)1, 66–73. doi:10.1016/j.bbadis.2011.03.016

And that's as far as I got, the last time I worked on it, a few days ago. Does what I have written so far make sense?

Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

Martha
increasing the magnesium is a good way to see if you can reduce the histamine issues

there was two stages to me resolving my histamine issues;
first stage - high doses of magnesium, Vit C, and zinc (keeping in mind i was moderately zinc deficient which is rare)
i was taking over 1000mg of magnesium per day (albeit I am heavier than you)

Second stage - L methionine which is part of the methylation cycle. 9 months later I no longer need the L-methionine and do not have any histamine issues (2 years post focused supplementation - methylation cycle is working well with next to no supplementation)

like many things - there is no black and white, set solution for this. each person is different.

Dao will only work if your body is struggling to clear excess histamine

L-methionine is only $15 from i herb so not an expensive trial and error thing to try
and in the case of Lilja when she tried it, as L-methionine also works on 'hidden bacteria' she had a few bladder issues as it tried to clear hidden bacteria there..

an article about L-Methionine
(NB -Our MC eating plan negates most of the foods sources )
http://aminoacidstudies.org/l-methionine/

like anything - if you are deficient, it will take two weeks to see improvement

L-methionine is also the pre-curser to SAMe in the methylation cycle, so it will also help with mood/anxiety etc.

hope this helps!

[brandy]

Tex,

Not telling you what to do but consider adding discussion of Uceris and LDN to 2nd Edition; also perhaps expand on the bile acid meds.

Brandy

[brandy]

Tex,

Not telling you what to do but consider adding discussion of Uceris and LDN to 2nd Edition; also perhaps expand on the bile acid meds.

Brandy

[crervin]

Thank you Tex! I can't wait to read your next book! Just wish there was a easy way to increase my DAO levels like they were when I was pregnant.

Thank you Gabes, great article. Hope i remember that for whenever I get a UTI. I tried l-methionine back in the fall and didn't notice any changes with it. I'm def open to trying it again though. I've still got some in the cabinet. I will try it again. Also, I noticed Brandy mentioned b complex helped her. Sadly, I can't find any that doesn't upset my gut. I am going to try to take it every 3 days, instead of every day like I was. I have Zands zinc and vitamin c lozenges in my car that I try to suck on daily. I stocked up with those from iherb, since I can't take a multivitamin. I probably get 15 mg of zinc and 120 mg of ascorbic acid daily.


I so hope this spring isn't as bad as my fall! I've still come along way ....

[tex]

Tex,

Not telling you what to do but consider adding discussion of Uceris and LDN to 2nd Edition; also perhaps expand on the bile acid meds.

Brandy

Yep, there's an entire chapter devoted to LDN and BAM, and Uceris will probably also be mentioned there. Unless I'm overlooking one, Uceris is the only new med that's become available since the first edition was published. But of course this is an off-label use for MC. To date, there are still zero meds specifically labeled for treating MC.

Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

I was doing about 1500mg of Vit C (plus what I was getting from vegetables)

Due to methylation cycle issues, the body can be sensitive to some B Vits, especially the active forms. And I didn't tolerate the active b12 until other deficiencies were resolved.

I took them as separates, that way I could start them one at a time in low dose and work up to full dose. This way I knew which one was not being tolerated.

How long did you take the L-methionine for? When it comes to supps and fixing deficiencies only a few provide instant improvement... Most take a while and improvements are gradual over a few weeks.

[crervin]

Gabes, that is a good idea about taking individual. I tried the l-meth. for a week. I will stay on it longer. Yea, my vitamin c isn't much. I couldn't find anything in a higher dose that I thought wouldn't bother me. I feel like I get none from food.

[Gabes-Apg]

Sweet potato, cauliflower, broccoli have Vit C

[Gabes-Apg]

That's the other advantage of having protein and cooked veges for as many meals as possible each day. the veges have quite a bit of vitamins and minerals we need.

Many have been surprised when they put their mc eating plan into a nutritional counter, they are getting most of the daily requirements...

[tex]

Martha and Gina,

Here is another quote from that chapter that might be helpful:

And because diamine oxidase enzyme requires vitamin B-6 for activation, the deficiency of B vitamins that so commonly occurs over the long term because of the malabsorption problems associated with MC can significantly add to the problem of histamine buildup by preventing DAO from functioning properly. Laboratory experiments have shown that increased vitamin B-6 intake can result in higher DAO activity levels. Whether or not this correlates with improved performance in the real world remains to be seen.

Tex

[crervin]

Going to see if I can find b-6 by itself to see if I can tolerate it.

Going to start with 500 mg of L-methionine daily.

I do eat cauliflower often, but sweet potatoe and broccoli are a sometimes. They cause a lot of gas. I eat green beans and peas and carrots.