Wayne
Saw your post under “More on C. difficile” on stomach acid that you have talked about in the past .
Last weekend browsed a book in the health food store- “Why Stomach Acid Is Good For You” by Jonathan V. Wright , M.D. and Lane Lenard, Ph.D With just a quick read through their premise seems to be that 1) many digestion problems can occur because of a lack of digestive acid in the stomach as opposed to to much. 2) that our bodies produce fewer and fewer enzymes and other chemicals as we age and that the concept that heart burn and acid indigestion is a result of to much stomach acid is contradictory to this concept. 3) That the valve between the esophagus and stomach is triggered to close by stomach acid and when there is not enough acid the valve does not close resulting in acid reflux. Taking acid blockers is only compounding the problem. 4)Proper medical testing of how much stomach acid you have is an absolutely essential in that taking to much could cause massive damage. In other words not something to mess with if you don’t know what you are doing.
I did not buy the book and the above is only my impression from a quick look. I mention it because the book backs up your idea so nicely .
The book can be found on Amazon.com
Here are a few interesting links
http://www.vrp.com/art/784.asp
http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/
Googeling Why Stomach Acid Is Good For You leads to a lot of other interesting sights both pro and con about this idea.
Matthew
Why Stomach Acid Is Good For You
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Matthew,
Thanks for the links. I was aware that items such as alcohol, peppermint, tobacco, caffeine, and especially fried or fatty foods, often lead to weak operation of the lower esophageal sphincter, but I didn't realize that the presence of acid in the stomach is necessary to activate it.
That's interesting. It's no wonder that so many of the acid-blocking treatments that are recommended for GERD, don't work very well.
Thanks,
Wayne
Thanks for the links. I was aware that items such as alcohol, peppermint, tobacco, caffeine, and especially fried or fatty foods, often lead to weak operation of the lower esophageal sphincter, but I didn't realize that the presence of acid in the stomach is necessary to activate it.
That's interesting. It's no wonder that so many of the acid-blocking treatments that are recommended for GERD, don't work very well.
Thanks,
Wayne
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Interesting......... Maybe someone can explain something to me that I just can't understand. Apparently some foods are considered acid (like cheese, grains, meat) and that others are considered alkaline (like most veggies and fruits). And some researchers recommend that there are health benefits from eating alkaline foods. (For one, it is said to keep the urine less acidic and therefore helps to prevent the kidneys from excreting a lot of calcium).
Well, as soon as any food hits the stomach, it encounters strong hydrochloric acid. How come that acid doesn't neutralize the basic foods?
How is it possible for a digested food to come out of the stomach and still be alkaline on the rest of its path?????
Love,
Polly, stumped
Well, as soon as any food hits the stomach, it encounters strong hydrochloric acid. How come that acid doesn't neutralize the basic foods?
How is it possible for a digested food to come out of the stomach and still be alkaline on the rest of its path?????
Love,
Polly, stumped
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
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kate_ce1995
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Just a WAG here, but likely basic foods are neutralized to an extent, but consider adding acid to acid...the result is going to be more acid. This is an interesting concept, and one that really makes sense. It makes total sense that the shut-off to the esophogus would be triggered by having acid in the stomach. After all thats why its there.
Here is what I wonder about. Gluten (during my indescretions, particularly when they go on for a long time) causes me to have acid reflux (self diagnosed...but a couple of tums handle it so I can sleep). Why would gluten cause this reaction is grains are acidic?
Katy
Here is what I wonder about. Gluten (during my indescretions, particularly when they go on for a long time) causes me to have acid reflux (self diagnosed...but a couple of tums handle it so I can sleep). Why would gluten cause this reaction is grains are acidic?
Katy
Katy,
I would guess that the reflux problem that you mentioned may be caused by the extra pressure created by the gas and bloating, due to the gluten, but borrowing a phrase from you, that's just a WAG. If I understand it correctly, the lower esophageal sphincter is really not a valve, but a constriction in the esophagus, and therefore subject to leakage, under abnormal conditions, such as excess pressure might impose.
Polly,
A chemical change on the acidity scale occurs in degrees, depending on the pH of the ingredients involved, and the total volume, (or mass, actually), of the respective ingredients involved. This can easily be represented mathematically, if the weight and pH of the respective food items are known.
IOW, the more foods we eat that have an acid pH level, and the lower that pH level is, then the lower the final pH of the total combination will be, after the stomach adds it's usual acid treatment. And, the more basic ingredients involved, and the higher their pH, the higher the final pH will be. At least, that's what I would assume to be the case, from a logical viewpoint.
Presumably, there is a quantitative limit to the amount of acid that the stomach will add to a mixture, and therefore, eating foods which are more basic on the pH scale, should result in a final mixture that is less acidic than it would have been otherwise, (though still acidic), which will make subsequent reactions farther down the line more likely to result in a higher pH level.
The question in my mind is, whether the stomach adds quantities of acid based on the volume of the food involved, or the pH of the food involved, or if the enteric nervous system is sophisticated enough to instruct the stomach to add acid based on the prevailing average pH level of the mixture, on a continuing basis. If the latter is the case, then the pH levels of the foods we eat should make any difference, as far as the final pH of the mixture is concerned.
Probably, there is a practical upper limit to the amount of acid that can be added, and a diet of higher pH foods may be able to overwhelm the acid production, and therefore result in a more basic final pH level. Again, just a WAG, or maybe a WAEG, but this theory is supported by the fact that it has been documented that many of us sometimes run short of acid, as we grow older.
Also, if the acidity of urine is artificially decreased past a certain threshold, wouldn't that make UTIs a greater risk?
Love,
Wayne
I would guess that the reflux problem that you mentioned may be caused by the extra pressure created by the gas and bloating, due to the gluten, but borrowing a phrase from you, that's just a WAG. If I understand it correctly, the lower esophageal sphincter is really not a valve, but a constriction in the esophagus, and therefore subject to leakage, under abnormal conditions, such as excess pressure might impose.
Polly,
A chemical change on the acidity scale occurs in degrees, depending on the pH of the ingredients involved, and the total volume, (or mass, actually), of the respective ingredients involved. This can easily be represented mathematically, if the weight and pH of the respective food items are known.
IOW, the more foods we eat that have an acid pH level, and the lower that pH level is, then the lower the final pH of the total combination will be, after the stomach adds it's usual acid treatment. And, the more basic ingredients involved, and the higher their pH, the higher the final pH will be. At least, that's what I would assume to be the case, from a logical viewpoint.
Presumably, there is a quantitative limit to the amount of acid that the stomach will add to a mixture, and therefore, eating foods which are more basic on the pH scale, should result in a final mixture that is less acidic than it would have been otherwise, (though still acidic), which will make subsequent reactions farther down the line more likely to result in a higher pH level.
The question in my mind is, whether the stomach adds quantities of acid based on the volume of the food involved, or the pH of the food involved, or if the enteric nervous system is sophisticated enough to instruct the stomach to add acid based on the prevailing average pH level of the mixture, on a continuing basis. If the latter is the case, then the pH levels of the foods we eat should make any difference, as far as the final pH of the mixture is concerned.
Probably, there is a practical upper limit to the amount of acid that can be added, and a diet of higher pH foods may be able to overwhelm the acid production, and therefore result in a more basic final pH level. Again, just a WAG, or maybe a WAEG, but this theory is supported by the fact that it has been documented that many of us sometimes run short of acid, as we grow older.
Also, if the acidity of urine is artificially decreased past a certain threshold, wouldn't that make UTIs a greater risk?
Love,
Wayne
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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kate_ce1995
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- Location: Vermont
Wayne,
Isn't the pancreas responsible for digestive juice production or is it the gall bladder? And that is part of the endocrine system? So one would think the body adjust similar to how insulin production is made based on the amount of "something" in the system.
Remember, this is coming from an engineer who has not taken a biology class since the 9th grade and was more interested in catching crickets for the taratula and the bull frog than paying attention to the boring teacher! Plus my teacher was more ecology based than anatomy based.
Katy
Isn't the pancreas responsible for digestive juice production or is it the gall bladder? And that is part of the endocrine system? So one would think the body adjust similar to how insulin production is made based on the amount of "something" in the system.
Remember, this is coming from an engineer who has not taken a biology class since the 9th grade and was more interested in catching crickets for the taratula and the bull frog than paying attention to the boring teacher! Plus my teacher was more ecology based than anatomy based.
Katy
Hahahahahaha. I hear you on the distractions--I always seemed to have a lot of diversions when I was in school, too.
Actually, the pancreas doesn't come into play until food reaches the small intestine, where it secretes insulin and glucagon (to regulate blood sugar), in addition to pancreatic enzymes, which are involved in the digestion of fats and proteins in the small intestine. The pancreatic juice also contains sodium bicarbonate which neutralizes the acidic material from the stomach.
The biliary tract, from the gallbladder is connected to the duodenum, also. Both the pancreas and the gallbladder release digestive juices, all right, but they are connected to the small intestine, rather than the stomach.
The stomach pretty much does it's job with a highly acidic environment (maintained by the secretion of hydrochloric acid from the parietal cells), and with the digestive enzymes pepsin, rennin, and lipase, (all secreted by cells in the gastric mucosa), and, of course, vigorous contractions.
The stomach definitely responds to its contents, but I'm not well enough acquainted with the system to know all the finer details of it's operation. I do know that it can produce two or three liters of digestive juices per day, if needed.
Wayne
Actually, the pancreas doesn't come into play until food reaches the small intestine, where it secretes insulin and glucagon (to regulate blood sugar), in addition to pancreatic enzymes, which are involved in the digestion of fats and proteins in the small intestine. The pancreatic juice also contains sodium bicarbonate which neutralizes the acidic material from the stomach.
The biliary tract, from the gallbladder is connected to the duodenum, also. Both the pancreas and the gallbladder release digestive juices, all right, but they are connected to the small intestine, rather than the stomach.
The stomach pretty much does it's job with a highly acidic environment (maintained by the secretion of hydrochloric acid from the parietal cells), and with the digestive enzymes pepsin, rennin, and lipase, (all secreted by cells in the gastric mucosa), and, of course, vigorous contractions.
The stomach definitely responds to its contents, but I'm not well enough acquainted with the system to know all the finer details of it's operation. I do know that it can produce two or three liters of digestive juices per day, if needed.
Wayne
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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artteacher
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Hi there everyone,
If you're interested in reading about alkaline/acid ph balance, try Googling "Baroody ph". He's on of the people who have written books about it, and I think his site gives some explanations (as well as selling products that you probably don't need). There is an alternate opinion on the subject on "quackwatch" (I think) written by Dr. Mercola. This is a site that sells ph testing strips inexpensively: http://www.feelgoodfood.com/feel-good-f ... h-kits.php
And this is one that I stumbled across that sounds very simple and refreshing. I think I'd like to know the lady pictured here: http://www.weightvest4osteoporosis.com/phbalance.htm
See ya, Marsha
If you're interested in reading about alkaline/acid ph balance, try Googling "Baroody ph". He's on of the people who have written books about it, and I think his site gives some explanations (as well as selling products that you probably don't need). There is an alternate opinion on the subject on "quackwatch" (I think) written by Dr. Mercola. This is a site that sells ph testing strips inexpensively: http://www.feelgoodfood.com/feel-good-f ... h-kits.php
And this is one that I stumbled across that sounds very simple and refreshing. I think I'd like to know the lady pictured here: http://www.weightvest4osteoporosis.com/phbalance.htm
See ya, Marsha
Welll, apparently opinions vary about the preferred pH level of urine. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. First off, the level continuously varies, (or at least it should, if the patient being tested is alive). After eating, it will become more alkaline, and then a few hours later, it will become more acidic.
Urine pH varies from 4.5 to 8.0, averaging about 5.5 to 6.5. Probably, a desirable level for normal, healthy people should vary from about 6.0 to 7.0 during the day.
With acid urine, uric acid, cystine, and calcium oxalate crystals can become stones. If you have that problem, then you would probably want to keep your pH above 7.0 to prevent that from happening.
With alkaline urine, however, struite and calium phosphate crystals can become stones, so if you have that problem, you would probably want to keep your pH below 7.0.
As you can see, blaming calcium loss on acidic urine, is a rather simplistic approach to a complex problem. It just may not be that easy.
Patients with metabolic acidosis and uncontrolled diabetes excrete urine that is very acidic. People who eat a diet that includes large amounts of veggies, fruits, and dairy products, excrete urine that is very alkaline. Certain microbes which cause UTIs, can also cause very alkaline urine. I would presume that if the pancreas is not properly secreting bicarbonate into the duodenum, the end result will be acidic urine.
IOW, there are a lot of ifs, ands, or buts involved, and simply eating alkaline foods, in order to try to maintain a urine pH above 7.0 may not be a universal solution. Eating lemons, for example will push the pH of urine toward the alkaline side. We all know that lemons are acidic, so that probably means that lemons trick the pancreas into overproducing bicarbonate, in order to end up with an alkaline pH.
I didn't read Dr. Mercola's article, but it appears that I may agree with him. I'm not convinced that it pays to try to fool mother nature, by manipulating diet in order to obtain some arbitrary pH value. I suspect that if pH values are way out of line, then something far more serious than a diet imbalance is likely to be causing the problem, and if those values are only a little bit out of line, than it's probably immaterial. At least that's the way I see it.
Wayne
Urine pH varies from 4.5 to 8.0, averaging about 5.5 to 6.5. Probably, a desirable level for normal, healthy people should vary from about 6.0 to 7.0 during the day.
With acid urine, uric acid, cystine, and calcium oxalate crystals can become stones. If you have that problem, then you would probably want to keep your pH above 7.0 to prevent that from happening.
With alkaline urine, however, struite and calium phosphate crystals can become stones, so if you have that problem, you would probably want to keep your pH below 7.0.
As you can see, blaming calcium loss on acidic urine, is a rather simplistic approach to a complex problem. It just may not be that easy.
Patients with metabolic acidosis and uncontrolled diabetes excrete urine that is very acidic. People who eat a diet that includes large amounts of veggies, fruits, and dairy products, excrete urine that is very alkaline. Certain microbes which cause UTIs, can also cause very alkaline urine. I would presume that if the pancreas is not properly secreting bicarbonate into the duodenum, the end result will be acidic urine.
IOW, there are a lot of ifs, ands, or buts involved, and simply eating alkaline foods, in order to try to maintain a urine pH above 7.0 may not be a universal solution. Eating lemons, for example will push the pH of urine toward the alkaline side. We all know that lemons are acidic, so that probably means that lemons trick the pancreas into overproducing bicarbonate, in order to end up with an alkaline pH.
I didn't read Dr. Mercola's article, but it appears that I may agree with him. I'm not convinced that it pays to try to fool mother nature, by manipulating diet in order to obtain some arbitrary pH value. I suspect that if pH values are way out of line, then something far more serious than a diet imbalance is likely to be causing the problem, and if those values are only a little bit out of line, than it's probably immaterial. At least that's the way I see it.
Wayne
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.