Trouble with sleeping

[Lilja]

Hi all,

I'm recovering. No D, no bloating, no gas, no brain fog, no cramps in my legs, no nausea, no hair falling out, no weight loss, etc, and I'm still on a strict diet.

But now, I suddenly experience that I have a hard time falling asleep, and once I do, I can’t sleep unabruptedly during one whole night. I wake up every second hour, like 3-4 times every night, and in worst cases I wake up every 20-30 minute. I’m not aware of what wakes me up..., if it’s my bladder calling, or if I’m thirsty, hungry, or something else. Anyway, I wake up and of course I automatically take a trip to the toilet, drink 2-3 sips of my electrolyte drink and often manage to fall asleep again, but not always, I then usually give up and start the day at 4 am. I'm retired and I don't have to get up that early. I don't drink too much during the day, in fact I think I drink too little as compared to the recommended intake.

My latest lab tests (September) showed too much vitamin D3 (262, where the reference range in my country is 50-150). I have searched the net, and found on a discussion forum some saying that too much D3 can cause insomnia, and also that magnesium can cause this. Is there some data that can back this up, or any good theory why this sleep "disorder" happens?

PS: I'm 69 years old, and doctors love to stamp every health issue as "you have to accept some issues, given your age". I hate that. I think that it's only their way of saying that they don't have a clue and that they really don't care

Lilja

[Vanessa]

Hey Lilja,

I have nights like this as well.....depending on menstrual cycle. The other thing that comes to mind is your vit D. Of course I'm no expert, but it takes a lot of magnesium to convert your D3 and I'm wondering once your level of D3 lowers, your magnesium stores will go up and more restful sleep will come again. The only reason I think magnesium would cause insomnia is if it is detoxing you in some way which can bring on short lived insomnia and a "revved up" type feeling. It did for me when I first started the Remag but it was short lived once I lowered dose and started slower.

[Lilja]

Vanessa,

Thank you, Vanessa.
Thinking back, this might have started when I began taking ReMag... I have to find more bits to the puzzle, but this sure is one of the things that might lead to an answer. I will stop taking both vitamin D3 (which I actually already have, since my values were so high) and magnesium for a while, and monitor my sleeping pattern.

Lilja

[Vanessa]

Hey Lilja,

I wouldn't quit your magnesium, just lower it or use topical in the interim so your getting something. Hope sleep gets back on line soon.

[Deb]

Lilja, I previously posted on here that upon starting ReMag I had trouble falling asleep. I now take it in the morning, instead of throughout the day, and that problem went away. I still have an ongoing problem of waking up in the middle of the night and having trouble getting back to sleep but I think that might be improving.

[tex]

Lilja,

I believe that you, Vanessa, and Deb are on the right track, and here is some evidence to support that.

Vitamin D allows calcium to be absorbed into the bloodstream, and magnesium removes it so that it can be transported to bones or wherever it is needed, and magnesium also removes any excess amounts of calcium so that the blood level will not become too high. So if your current blood level of calcium is in the normal range, you are fine.

If you lower your magnesium dose you should definitely lower your vitamin D dose because a very high vitamin D level can cause a serious problem with too much calcium in the blood if there is not enough magnesium to remove the excess calcium from the blood. But as you have pointed out, your vitamin D level is too high, so your dosage should be reduced anyway.

There is not much official medical research to support any of this (because no one has published any research on the topic), but there are some blogs about personal experiences that suggest that:

1. Too much vitamin D can interfere with deep sleep

2. Too much magnesium can put the body in a "detoxification" mode and this can interfere with sleep.

Regarding the first item (1.), this blog describes one individual's experience monitoring deep sleep and comparing it with his vitamin D level:

Vitamin D destroyed my deep sleep

The author presents a good case and shows the graph of his nightly deep sleep time as he dropped his vitamin D level from 89.5 ng/mL (233.392 nmol/l to 55.5 ng/mL (138.528 nmol/l).

Of course at the opposite end of the spectrum, vitamin D deficiency has been associated with sleep apnea:

The relation of serum 25-hydroxyvitamin-D levels with severity of obstructive sleep apnea and glucose metabolism abnormalities.

Regarding the second item (2.), a nutritional therapist writing in the Huffington Post claims that:

And there have been reported instances where people consider magnesium supplementation has worsened their sleep making them ‘stimulated’.

It is probable that too much magnesium does causes insomnia - and the reason is because it starts the body ‘detoxing’ and this causes all sorts of aches and pains and stops the body resting and sleeping. We would suggest that 200mg elemental of magnesium (I stress ‘elemental’ here) is ideal for seeking to promote sleep and relaxation, whilst the sort of supplemental level that generally tips the balance is 300mg+ (elemental) which will start the body detoxification and this will give rise to symptoms that appear to have the opposite effect (to relaxation) in the short term.

Insomnia and Sleep Disruption - Is Magnesium the Solution?

And here is a discussion about the topic at the paleohacks website:

Why does Magnesium Sometimes NEGATIVELY Impact Sleep?

I hope that this is helpful.

Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

Tex has sort of covered the main points I was going to raise, in the detox process the liver and kidney do most of the work during the night.... when I am taking all the supps at top dose that encourage toxin/metal clearance my sleep is always interrupted. 2-3 wake ups during the night.
At the moment due to a few situations in life, I am changing doses of supp protocol daily.
When sleep is the priority I tone down the doses... I have had two nights of really good sleep, feeling better, so I will start to increase the doses again....

For me with my combo of health issues this will be ongoing for me, listening to my body and adjusting things to suit.

Hope this helps...

[Lilja]

Thank you Tex, Gabes, Deb and Vanessa!


What you say makes a lot of sense! I will continue stopping vitamin D3, and also lower my magnesium supplement.

I'm supposed to take a lot of tests next week, like glucose tolerance test, fasting glucose, aldosterone, free cortisol and osmolality. Maybe that is a waste of money, and that correcting vit D3 and magnesium is the solution

One question though: What does "elemental magnesium" actually mean? I have come across the expression several times, but I haven't been able to find out what it really means.

Lilja

[Vanessa]

The elemental refers to the general weight of mag to the total chelate weight. The math is beyond me.

I also just ordered another Vit D test kit from Vit D council. I haven't had my levels checked since starting the ReMag and want to make sure my level hasn't shot up too high. That could explain some of the episodes of heart palps I still experience on occasion. My blood calcium is in good order. Should you stop your vit D supp. before testing or just the day you test?

[jlbattin]

I have found that every since I was diagnosed with MC, I've had sleep disturbances..........and I especially had them when my dosage of Budesonide was higher.........

I'm still struggling with fall allergies really badly so I'm taking a benadryl and a 3 mg tablet of time released melatonin to help me sleep and to help me get back to sleep when I do wake up..............

[tex]

Lilja,

Elemental magnesium is simply pure magnesium. On the periodic table of elements (from your chemistry studies back in your school days) it's designated as Mg. But pure magnesium in powdered or molten (or ribbon) form is highly flammable, and it burns at a very high temperature. In fact, powdered magnesium is the mechanism used in the unique welding process known as thermite welding. That's one of the reasons why magnesium supplements are always provided as a stable compound that combines magnesium with another element or acid, or even an amino acid (such as magnesium glycinate, which is a combination of magnesium and the amino acid glycine).


Vanessa,

Vitamin D levels tend to change very little from day to day, so as with most supplements, I only skip it on the day of the blood draw. Whether you skip an extra day or so shouldn't make much difference in your test results.


And I had the same experience as Jari — the onset of MC symptoms permanently altered my sleep patterns. Sleeping was so difficult during the early years (before I discovered the miracle of diet changes) that I was mostly only able to sleep erratically during the night, and occasionally make up for the loss of sleep with "catnaps" during the day, as needed.

Tex

[janden143]

I am currently on 6mg of Budesonide and am getting up to spend a penny every hour until 5am, then I manage a 2 hour sleep. The drug has been so brilliant at controlling my CC BUT I'd love a night's sleep. I also find I get restless leg syndrome for part of the night.

[jlbattin]

The restless leg syndrome is a magnesium deficiency.........I also had it most of my life until just recently when I was diagnosed with CC, found this fabulous website and learned all about magnesium and D3 deficiencies.............

I rub magnesium lotion on my legs at night if I need to, but since I've fixed my deficiency, my leg cramps and restless leg have stopped.

[janden143]

Thanks for that. I started taking magnesium a couple of weeks ago. I'm taking 300mg per day. Can't take too much as I have dodgy kidneys.

[hollyweb]

Hi Lilja,

So sorry to hear about this sleeping issue. You've been given great advice from others much further along than me. I'll just share that I've had insomnia and restless leg (plus countless other symptoms) my entire life. It wasn't until finding ReMag that I am now consistently able to sleep. Finding the right amount is still ongoing, but just reading what you've written it sounds to me like you could possibly use more magnesium, and maybe try sipping the ReMag throughout the day (instead of mostly at night). I was told by my naturopath to take my Vitamin D at night, which I've done since my diagnosis. And I've cut waaaaay back on my Vitamin D intake since I've also tested so high in the levels and also since I'm working hard to reverse my very long-term magnesium deficiency.

As you know, too much Vitamin D can cause magnesium not to be absorbed as efficiently. So now you're scratching your head (so glad to hear about your hair!!) and wondering, "is it too much or too little magnesium?"!! That's a question most of us ask every day, at least I do, and I certainly know how confusing it can all be. All we can do here is to share our experiences and hope that they are helpful in some way to someone else.

Right now, I'm taking about 750 elemental magnesium daily (2 1/2 tsp) from ReMag, and I alternate taking 2,000 and 3,000 Vitamin D (I use a combination D3 and K2 sublingual formula) each night. (Up until a couple of weeks ago, I was taking 5-7,500 mg Vitamin D nightly.) My sleep has been wonderful. I've added a couple of other Dr. Dean products so definitely feel more detox is happening ... but so far, this hasn't affected my sleep.

I've got a long way to go in my healing journey, and many of my worst symptoms are neurological ones (depression, anxiety, panic attacks, social phobia). All my symptoms I've had for decades, and can now realize that my immediate family (now mostly passed) suffered from all of these too. But being able to sleep is such a blessing, and even when I feel I'm not making much progress during the day as far as living the life I want to live, at least at night I know that healing can take place due to the quality of sleep.

Having those tests is a good thing, in my opinion. Whenever we can get numbers to find baselines of things, this is really helpful towards figuring out any adjustments. I'm also very low on cortisol (adrenal fatigue), so it sounds like you're on the right track. We need to know how various organs are functioning, and when there are "accurate" tests, that is good.

Wishing you all the best, Lilja, and I know that you'll be able to work out what changes to make to give you that blessed ability to sleep at night again soon. Please keep us posted!

~ Holly