Can MC progress to kidney disease?

christinafriberg · Post by **christinafriberg** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:41 pm

I had lab work done recently mag level is good (6.5), vit d is little high (88) and b6 is off the chart (538) which I've stopped for now. My new concern is the test for kidney disease (GFR) suggests moderate
kidney disease. Could the high protein diet Ive been on for the last 10 months and too much WD be causing the the kidney problem? Any information would be greatly appreciated, needless to say I'm more than a little worried.

Thanks-Christina

ps 23&me results: No Mthfr C667T mutation, heterozygous for Mthfr A1298C

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:42 pm

Christina
I dont think MC can DIRECTLY cause kidney issues - albeit during my MC journey I did have moderate to severe renal impairment of unknown cause.

based on my learnings and research these are my thoughts - (i am not a scientist or doctor)
- higher protein diets can contribute but are not main cause.
- ongoing inflammation puts stress on kidneys - especially if histamine or mast cells are occurring.
- if you have been taking things like magnesium etc the increased clearance of toxins will put stress on kidneys (this is still an ongoing issue for me and my kidney as I am in monitored process of clearing excess metals)
- various health issues linked to inflammation can deplete key nutrients linked to renal issues - like CoQ10, Vit K, zinc, magnesium, methionine, acetyl-l-carnitine, potassium ( my kidney issues improved greatly once i resolved deficiencies with CoQ10, magnesium, methionine (linked to methylation cycle etc so your MTHFR A1298 is a linkage)

I am 99% certain that years (?life long) of deficiencies with Zinc, Magnesium, CoQ10 linked with ongoing inflammation and stress was the main factors for my severe renal impairment. For me and my combo of health issues, I will be on daily supplementation of zinc, magnesium, CoQ10 to manage multiple health issues and protect the kidneys

Post by **tex** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:43 pm

Christina,

I agree with Gabes — I'm not aware that MC causes kidney disease, but as she points out, some of the satellite issues associated with MC may cause kidney problems.

How much magnesium are you taking? Too much magnesium can overwork the kidneys if you are absorbing it, but you either are unable to utilize it, or you don't need it (because the kidneys have to remove that excess amount from the blood).

For some of us, balancing magnesium intake against needs can be tricky. As my chronic magnesium deficiency began to become worse, my EGFR began to drop, and when my deficiency became severe, my EGFR got down into the upper 30s. it was only after I resolved my deficiency that it went back up to a normal level. About 5 or 6 months before I figured out that I was magnesium deficient, I even passed a couple of kidney stones, and this also depressed my EGFR results. (Kidney stones are a known symptom of magnesium deficiency). But as I pointed out above, it may also be possible for too much magnesium to adversely affect EGFR, because that can overwork the kidneys. And of course there are other issues that can affect kidney function.

Presumably your creatinine test level was elevated, because this is what EGFR is usually calculated from. Other possible causes can include damage due to kidney infections or autoimmune disease, kidney damage due to drugs, or the presence of one or more kidney stones or other causes of a urinary tract obstruction.

Are you taking any drugs? One of the drugs that can cause serious kidney problems is PPIs. Certain antibiotics, acetominophen, and NSAIDs can also cause kidney problems.

I hope that some of this is helpful.

Tex

christinafriberg · Post by **christinafriberg** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:34 pm

Tex- to answer your questions, the only drugs I'm taking are T3, small dose of hydrocortisone for adrenals and 1.5 mg LDN. I'll cut back a little on mag to see if that helps with WD and kidneys.

With a RBC mag level of 6.5 I'm assuming I'm no longer deficient in mag. I am confused by the high B6, 538 (range is 20-120).

Gabes-can you recommend a CoQ10 with no corn, rice or soy?

THANK YOU Gabes and Tex for your very thorough replies! Sharing your experiences with kidney problems and resolving/managing them is very helpful. I'll continue to work on inflammation and other deficiencies.

Post by **tex** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:52 pm

But how much magnesium have you been taking?

Your B-6 may only be high because you are unable to convert it into the active form so that your body can use it, in which case you may actually be deficient of the active form of B-6.

But if your B-6 level is actually high, and your body is converting it into the active form properly, then you may not need magnesium because B-6 enhances magnesium absorption.

Tex

Post by **tex** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:00 pm

Another question — is your B-12 level also high, or is B-6 the only B vitamin that tested high?

Tex

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:06 pm

Tex has covered my main question
are you taking B6 or P5P - a high B6 result may mean that you have high B6 that is biounavailable (ie not useable) which means that your methylation cycle is not converting the B6 properly...

also agree with TEx, how much and what type(s) of magnesium are you taking? as this has linkage to the B6 results

re the CoQ10 - I am taking an Aussie practitioner lingual tablet that is soy free. I dont believe it is available in the USA.
a quick google search showed this product available from iherb it is definately soy and corn free and appears rice free
http://au.iherb.com/healthy-origins-ubi ... vQodcowH4Q

I do recommend investigating to see if you can get a lingual form of CoQ10 - (it will cost extra) but it is far better absorbed AND it will help gums and teeth in the process.

christinafriberg · Post by **christinafriberg** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:09 pm

Tex-I've been taking 150mg of Remag and about 550mg topical mag oil, so close to 700mg. I'll cut back some and maybe try the Dr Best mag glycinate again instead of ReMag. It feels like the ReMag is too potent for me.

We only tested B6. I've been taking 17mg of P5P and half mg of 5MTHF. I'll get the B12 tested.

I eat lots of lamb and turkey breast. Both have lots of B6 and other B vitamins. Is it possible that I'm getting enough B vitamins from food? And I don't need more than say 500 mg of mag?

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:10 pm

I would cut back to 500mg of mag - mostly topical and see how that goes...

that P5P dose is mid range

Post by **tex** » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:42 pm

Christina,

If both B-6 and B-12 test high, then it's possible that you might be deficient of the active form of B-6, but since you are already taking 17 mg of the active form, it's difficult to see how you could be deficient. The RDA is in the 2–4 mg range (even though most supplements are about 10 times that high). I agree with Gabes that you might be getting enough from your food.

Tex

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:36 am

There are health conditions that mean that some individuals need higher supplementation of B6

for me and my combo of health issues i take over 50mg of P5P per day. I do not recommend going above 40 unless there is known health issue to warrant higher dosage

From my nutrient text book
ongoing high doses of B6 can cause neuropathy symptoms - but symptoms cease when high dosages are stopped

Synergistic nutrients (that helps the body use the B6)
Vit B1, B2, B3, B12, C, E, biotin, magnesium, potassium, selenium, zinc

______________________________________________________________________________________________
came across this - i think your methylation cycle is a bit out... hence why you have high B6 in blood test

High B12 Levels When You're Not Taking High Doses of B6

However, if you have high levesl and you are not taking supplements, the most likely problem is the MTHFR Gene that can easily be detected on a 23andMe Genetic Test done using a simple mouth swab.

The MTHFR gene is extremely common and can lead to a problem processing the B Vitamins, making people particularly susceptible to deficiency of B12, folic acid, and Vitamin B6. Ironically, in these cases, Vitamin B6 Levels and Vitamin B12 Levels will be HIGH, despite actually being a DEFICIENCY of these vitamins. This is because the vitamins build up in the bloodstream, where they are measured, but the vitamins can't get into the cells where they are needed.

“The finding of high vitamin B6 levels is consistent with
recent reports of low levels of [Vitamin B6]. This may
explain the functional need for high-dose
vitamin B6 supplementation in many
children and adults with autism.”
Pilot Study of a Moderate Dose Multivitamin/Mineral
Supplement for Children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder

http://www.easy-immune-health.com/vitam ... icity.html

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:55 am

I am not sure how much you know about the methylation cycle -

my layperson description is that the methylation cycle is multiple interweaving cogs (think of a really complex big antique clock, lots of round mechanical cogs with teeth, different sizes, for the clock to run right, each of the cogs have to turn/progress right time, right way etc etc )
I started to look at the cog/system for B6

have you done the full 23andme DNA profile and got a full methylation report? or are you just aware of the the MTHFR 1298 gene.

christinafriberg · Post by **christinafriberg** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:31 pm

Excellent analogy of the clock and methylation cycle Gabes. And great article on B12, I'm forwarding it on to my friend with MS. I just received the 23&me results.

Homozygous mutations: VDR Taq
MAO-A R297R
MRT A2756G
BHMT-08

Heterozygous mutations: COMT V158M
COMT H62H
MTRR A66G
BHMT-02
AHCY-01
AHCY-19
CBS A360A
MTHFR A1298C

I'm seeing my naturopath next week and will ask to have b12 tested, wouldn't hurt to test the 5MTHF as well.

Many thanks Tex and Gabes for your expertise and support!! Any comments about the 23&me results would be greatly appreciated.

Christina

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:46 pm

ok
if you look a the image so the CBS A360A is linked to the B6 part of the cycle!!

(gabe is smiling - we are putting the puzzle together)

I am not an expert - but with a bit of reading and research you can investigate some possible solutions to talk to you practitioner about
this is some good info about CBS mutation
it can be a bit overwhelming at first but over the next couple of days read it a few times...
http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm#CBS (Cystathionine Beta Synthase) Explanation and Generic Plan of Action

long story short you very likely have excess ammonia and excess oxidation
(this is also because you have CBS and BHMT)

I have similar to you - and the recommendations in the article worked well for me
i used molybdenum, GABA, soy free Vit E and of course as mentioned above CoQ10
I didnt do the charcoal - as the my MC eating plan I was avoiding most major issues (and one meal of mine a day is rice based protein drink)

Gabes-Apg · Post by **Gabes-Apg** » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:55 pm

This article about CBS mentions elevated B6

https://metabolichealing.com/metabolic- ... utathione/

Clinical Observations Regarding CBS Up-Regulations
It is critical to point out that CBS abnormalities, abnormally high, or abnormally low values may or may not appear in those with genetic mutations for CBS or BHMT.  Although, it appears that individuals with CBS and/or BHMT genetic mutations are more vulnerable to CBS pathway up-regulations.  The following lab data may warrant investigation, or be used to confirm an up-regulation of cystathionine beta synthase (CBS):

The above mentioned CBS and/or BHMT gene mutations
Elevated urinary sulfates: typically greater than 800. If consistently greater than 1000 then high CBS activity is likely
Elevated ammonia and/or sulfate levels on an Organic Acids Test (OAT)
Elevated B6 on an OAT test - B6 may also be elevated during CBS up-regulations
High Taurine Values - Taurine is synthesized via Cysteine
Elevated Orotate, Citrate and Isocitrate on an OAT test indicates elevated ammonia

Many researchers claim that individuals who are CBS ++ or +/- , or who have CBS pathway up-regulations, must eliminate flesh proteins.  However I have found this not to be the case, in most instances.

It may be a necessary consideration if one has CBS up-regulations, to reduce one's total sulfur load,  and this may require a reduction in protein, in some instances. From my initial observations, which are limited in number,  reducing or eliminating sulfur-heavy vegetables (cruciferous, garlic, onions) and eggs seems to be the biggest factor for most people. More research and observations are needed.

Restriction of supplemental methyl groups is important. We all need methyl groups, but those with active CBS up-regulations  need to be cautious with how much sulfur and how many methyl groups they are taking in daily.  This includes common supplements such as: L-methionine, L-cysteine, L-taurine, MSM, Glucosamine, L-Glycine, DMSO, SAMe, NAC, methylcobalamin, methyl-folate, Betaine HCL, Choline. Restricting Vitamin B6 may also be warranted in CBS up-regulations. P5P (pyridoxal 5 phosphate), however, does not appear to increase CBS activity.

bang for your buck based on this reading and what we have discussed above my suggestion would be
- start CoQ10 first
- once you are settled on that - start molybdenum
then see how things are and whether you need to take GABA