Mast Cells - Histamine??
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Mast Cells - Histamine??
Hi everyone. I was diagnosed with LC October 2016. I take levothyroxine, D3 and magnesium. Im thinking I have mast cell issues and/or histamine issues. If I eat something that I react to, I get hives on my body, not all in one place of the body for intermittently all over. I get itchy bumps on my neck and head. These always show up overnight so I would say 12-24 ours after eating. Is this mast cells or histamine release? I am so anxious. Also I have wheezing, a musus cough and stuffy runny nose. It's not bacterial. Is this also related? Thank you all for your help.
Lymphocytic Colitis 2015
Papillary Thyroid Cancer 2016
Hysterectomy 2008
Papillary Thyroid Cancer 2016
Hysterectomy 2008
Hi,
Yes, that's a typical mast cell reaction, and in my opinion it's definitely a side effect of MC for many people. Mast cells release histamine, cytokines, leukotrienes, and various other proinflammatory agents when they degranulate. When mast cell numbers accumulate above normal population levels, they tend to become active and begin degranulating. And this causes other mast cells to degranulate, triggering the type of reaction that you described.
I have the same sort of reactions (with similar timing) except that my hives and rash are usually concentrated on the other end of my body (my lower legs and feet). But sometimes, especially if I have a really serious reaction, the hives tend to show up at random locations all over my body. My reactions can always be traced back to eating too much of one or more high-histamine foods. As long as I limit the amount of high-histamine foods to below my reaction threshold, I'm fine (IOW, I have no symptoms).
In my case, this developed years after I was in stable remission. I have a hunch that this happens because of the fact that MC depletes diamine oxidase enzyme (DAO), and we may slowly lose much of our ability to produce DAO in normal amounts (despite being in remission). DAO's primary job appears to be eliminating (purging) the left over (unused) histamine in our body. Without adequate levels of DAO, our body is unable to purge enough of the unused histamine in circulation and it accumulates until it triggers a reaction.
At least, those are my thoughts on the subject.
Tex
Yes, that's a typical mast cell reaction, and in my opinion it's definitely a side effect of MC for many people. Mast cells release histamine, cytokines, leukotrienes, and various other proinflammatory agents when they degranulate. When mast cell numbers accumulate above normal population levels, they tend to become active and begin degranulating. And this causes other mast cells to degranulate, triggering the type of reaction that you described.
I have the same sort of reactions (with similar timing) except that my hives and rash are usually concentrated on the other end of my body (my lower legs and feet). But sometimes, especially if I have a really serious reaction, the hives tend to show up at random locations all over my body. My reactions can always be traced back to eating too much of one or more high-histamine foods. As long as I limit the amount of high-histamine foods to below my reaction threshold, I'm fine (IOW, I have no symptoms).
In my case, this developed years after I was in stable remission. I have a hunch that this happens because of the fact that MC depletes diamine oxidase enzyme (DAO), and we may slowly lose much of our ability to produce DAO in normal amounts (despite being in remission). DAO's primary job appears to be eliminating (purging) the left over (unused) histamine in our body. Without adequate levels of DAO, our body is unable to purge enough of the unused histamine in circulation and it accumulates until it triggers a reaction.
At least, those are my thoughts on the subject.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8332
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
If you read through the various posts and discussions about histamine, a key factor of excess histamine is deficiency in magnesium and B6.
Many here have resolved life long chronic histamine issues by fixing magnesium and B6 deficiency.
Treat root cause, not take a med or supplement to reduce symptoms is best long term approach.
For B6, taking the active form P5P is best option.
Many here have resolved life long chronic histamine issues by fixing magnesium and B6 deficiency.
Treat root cause, not take a med or supplement to reduce symptoms is best long term approach.
For B6, taking the active form P5P is best option.
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
I haven't been able to find much evidence that many people get much benefit from taking DAO supplements. I'm not sure why.
Tex
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Because we're all different, and we're living in different situations, it's not impossible that a DAO supplement might help you. It just doesn't seem to happen for most people.
Tex
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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dolson
- Gentoo Penguin
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:35 pm
- Location: Hilton Head, SC
- Contact:
Thanks Tex
I'm talking to Dr. Fine tomorrow about histamine problems. I've had non-stop diarrhea for the last month. Mostly water, but I am exhausted. I really think I have Mast Cell histamine problems. The foods that we're suppose to eat with mega amounts of histamine in our system contradicts the Specific Carbohydrate Diet I was eating. Now I am totally confused and baffled at mealtime. I think you nipped it in the bud when you told me I probably have histamine problems. Tex, what would I do without you? Sorry to hear that DAO might not help. Darn! Regards, Dorothy
Antihistimine
What is the dosage of antihistamine when you are weaning off of budesonide that may be helpful? I read something about taking the antihistamines while weaning off but I didn't see any dosages or what exactly to take? Any thoughts on trying antihistamines from anyone would be appreciated. I was on budesonide for 3 and 1/2 months and when I tapered off the D came back with a vengeance. While I waited for my cheaper supply of budesonide from All Day Chemist for another round I started taking 1 budesonide daily in the morning and prevelite in the afternoon which really gave me much relief from everything. I know, however, that my gut is not really healed. I am on a bland diet- no gluten, no sugar, no red meat, etc. It seems to be helping. Thanks
Hi,
First off, you have to have been on the diet long enough for your intestines to start healing before you taper off the budesonide (around 6 months or more in many cases). When they take their last budesonide capsule (ending the treatment), most people take one 24-hour antihistamine tablet each morning for a few weeks, or until they feel as if they are out of the woods. Use an antihistamine that is normally effective for you (for example, Claritin didn't seem to help much with my hayfever symptoms, so I take Allegra when I need an antihistamine. There are surely other ways to go about this, but I believe this is what many members here do.
Interestingly, now that I have my vitamins and minerals in order, I no longer get hayfever, so I don't need an antihistamine. Ragweed used to eat my lunch, but I no longer even notice when it's blooming (it's blooming now, but I have no symptoms).
Tex
First off, you have to have been on the diet long enough for your intestines to start healing before you taper off the budesonide (around 6 months or more in many cases). When they take their last budesonide capsule (ending the treatment), most people take one 24-hour antihistamine tablet each morning for a few weeks, or until they feel as if they are out of the woods. Use an antihistamine that is normally effective for you (for example, Claritin didn't seem to help much with my hayfever symptoms, so I take Allegra when I need an antihistamine. There are surely other ways to go about this, but I believe this is what many members here do.
Interestingly, now that I have my vitamins and minerals in order, I no longer get hayfever, so I don't need an antihistamine. Ragweed used to eat my lunch, but I no longer even notice when it's blooming (it's blooming now, but I have no symptoms).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
My daughter takes oral Ketotifen for histamine problems - it's helped with her gut, it's helped with her food reactions, it's helped with her asthma. Recently, she added Boswellia Serrata and it has also really helped with gut and lung symptoms. We're still fighting problems but she's feeling a lot better than a year ago.
Sometimes I feel like I'm a three year old. Why, why, why? So I've been trying to learn details about everything.
When dealing with histamines, Benadryl, which is a histamine blocker, tends to be an emergency go-to. Then an OTC combo of H1/H2 blockers can be tried - such as Zyrtec/Zantac or Allegra, Pepcid (or various combinations). All these just block histamine that has already been created. Ketotifen is a histamine inhibitor, it prevents release of histamine into the bloodstream. Ketotifen (brand name Zaditen) is not available in the US, but can be obtained through a compounding pharmacy. It can be obtained in many other countries, I don't know if it requires a prescription there. For folks with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, an alternative is Cromolyn Sodium, which I believe is expensive, we were lucky to go straight to Ketotifen and so never tried Cromolyn.
I spent some time awhile back trying to map out the histamine life cycle. What I understand, once histamine is released from the mast cell, it floats around the blood stream until it connects to a histamine receptor on another cell. That cell swallows the histamine, does its thing and converts the histamine into N-Methylhistamine (NMH) and kicks it back into the bloodstream. The inert N-Methylhistamine then floats around the blood stream until it gets to the kidneys where it is removed and disposed of in the urine. This may be overly simplistic and I'm probably missing a lot. It does raise the following questions -
Individuals who have a polymorphism in the histamine-N-methyl transferase (HNMT) gene, which encodes the enzyme that catalyzes NMH formation and results in an amino acid change that decreases the rate of NMH synthesis, may have problems converting histamine into NMH? So does that mean histamine backs up in the blood stream? And it takes longer to clear a histamine reaction?
Histamine processing also requires receptors. Might there be problems with the quantity/quality of receptors that can suck up histamine from the blood stream?
Urine tests I first saw tested for NMH, but then I started seeing urine histamine tests as well. So I'm confused as to how the body gets rid of those histamine molecules other than the NMH/urine path, they can't float around the blood stream forever.
Turns out my daughter has a normal HNMT gene. Problem lies elsewhere.
DAO (Diamine oxidase) is normally found mainly in the gut. I understand that it mainly neutralizes histamine in foods or histamine produced by cells in the gut to prevent histamine from entering the blood stream. So I can guess why it may be effective for some and not others. Also, one must be careful of DAO supplements - some are labelled as such but contain no DAO whatsoever, just herbs. Actual DAO has limited sources, we had to forego trying it because the "inactive" filler contained cornstarch (duh, nobody apparently told them that corn is a major allergen).
Moving on to Boswellia Serrata, we have been amazed how well it's been helping us with everything (particularly with the asthma-like symptoms, has helped with the gut too). Again, from what I've read, Boswellia is a leukotriene inhibitor. Leukotrienes are another pro-inflammatory chemical. Unlike Montelukast (Singulair), which is a specific Leukotriene-D4 blocker (just blocks, not prevents creation), Boswellia prevents creation of all the leukotrienes. Excessive leukotriene production in the gut might be another cause of diarrhea. I am astounded at how big pharma has totally ignored Boswellia, despite the tremendous amount of published research that is already out there.
So that's my brain dump. Hopefully I got something right and hope it's useful.
Sometimes I feel like I'm a three year old. Why, why, why? So I've been trying to learn details about everything.
When dealing with histamines, Benadryl, which is a histamine blocker, tends to be an emergency go-to. Then an OTC combo of H1/H2 blockers can be tried - such as Zyrtec/Zantac or Allegra, Pepcid (or various combinations). All these just block histamine that has already been created. Ketotifen is a histamine inhibitor, it prevents release of histamine into the bloodstream. Ketotifen (brand name Zaditen) is not available in the US, but can be obtained through a compounding pharmacy. It can be obtained in many other countries, I don't know if it requires a prescription there. For folks with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, an alternative is Cromolyn Sodium, which I believe is expensive, we were lucky to go straight to Ketotifen and so never tried Cromolyn.
I spent some time awhile back trying to map out the histamine life cycle. What I understand, once histamine is released from the mast cell, it floats around the blood stream until it connects to a histamine receptor on another cell. That cell swallows the histamine, does its thing and converts the histamine into N-Methylhistamine (NMH) and kicks it back into the bloodstream. The inert N-Methylhistamine then floats around the blood stream until it gets to the kidneys where it is removed and disposed of in the urine. This may be overly simplistic and I'm probably missing a lot. It does raise the following questions -
Individuals who have a polymorphism in the histamine-N-methyl transferase (HNMT) gene, which encodes the enzyme that catalyzes NMH formation and results in an amino acid change that decreases the rate of NMH synthesis, may have problems converting histamine into NMH? So does that mean histamine backs up in the blood stream? And it takes longer to clear a histamine reaction?
Histamine processing also requires receptors. Might there be problems with the quantity/quality of receptors that can suck up histamine from the blood stream?
Urine tests I first saw tested for NMH, but then I started seeing urine histamine tests as well. So I'm confused as to how the body gets rid of those histamine molecules other than the NMH/urine path, they can't float around the blood stream forever.
Turns out my daughter has a normal HNMT gene. Problem lies elsewhere.
DAO (Diamine oxidase) is normally found mainly in the gut. I understand that it mainly neutralizes histamine in foods or histamine produced by cells in the gut to prevent histamine from entering the blood stream. So I can guess why it may be effective for some and not others. Also, one must be careful of DAO supplements - some are labelled as such but contain no DAO whatsoever, just herbs. Actual DAO has limited sources, we had to forego trying it because the "inactive" filler contained cornstarch (duh, nobody apparently told them that corn is a major allergen).
Moving on to Boswellia Serrata, we have been amazed how well it's been helping us with everything (particularly with the asthma-like symptoms, has helped with the gut too). Again, from what I've read, Boswellia is a leukotriene inhibitor. Leukotrienes are another pro-inflammatory chemical. Unlike Montelukast (Singulair), which is a specific Leukotriene-D4 blocker (just blocks, not prevents creation), Boswellia prevents creation of all the leukotrienes. Excessive leukotriene production in the gut might be another cause of diarrhea. I am astounded at how big pharma has totally ignored Boswellia, despite the tremendous amount of published research that is already out there.
So that's my brain dump. Hopefully I got something right and hope it's useful.