Does leaky gut continue after remission?

[carolm]

Hi all,
My nutritionist is pressing me to take a low histamine probiotic. I have no confidence this will go well and I have not agreed to do that. My concern is that if a person has leaky gut then a probiotic just adds more bacteria that can be displaced into the rest of the body. So that leads me to my question: I’m in remission but does that actually mean leaky gut is healed?

Thanks,
Carol

[tex]

Hi Carol,

Yes, it should be healed. Except, of course, if you eat gluten or some other major food sensitivity, those tight junctions will temporarily open too wide and stay open too long again, and if you continue to eat a reactive food, the junctions will open wider and stay open longer, resulting in the syndrome known as leaky gut (increased intestinal permeability).

As far as I'm aware, the notion that a probiotic should help someone who has MC is an outdated concept. Published research not only shows that probiotics are more likely than not to have an adverse effect for most patients who have active MC, but they show no health benefits for individuals who have a normal digestive system (anyone who does not have a digestive system disease). The only research that shows them to be beneficial is "research" sponsored by the probiotics industry. So why should anyone spend their hard-earned money on them?

Also, in most cases, leaky gut is not a gut bacteria-driven problem — it's mostly caused by excessive alcohol consumption, or one or more untreated food sensitivities.

At least those are my thoughts on the issue.

Tex

[carolm]

Thanks Tex for the clarification.

I think my time would be better spent starting on Methyl Guard (titrating up very slowly), continuing to increase my vitamin D3, and continue with my magnesium and Vit C while keeping histamine in check. I’ve repeatedly read your post regarding managing your histamine by increasing Zinc and adding copper. That may be something I’ll need to do too at some point.

I just don’t think I’m going to increase my energy levels and feel better over all until I address methylation issues (I have the A1298C gene mutation- homozygous type). I think I’m just spinning my wheels until this gets addressed.

Many thanks-
Carol

[jnmast]

Hi,
This is a helpful discussion for me.. thought-provoking.
I will say that my very trustworthy Nutrition/ Dietitian support suggested a probiotic that seems to be working for me, but keeping all things in consideration I'll have to take another look at this to make certain I'm not adding an unnecessary cost/ subtle insult to the mix.
Overall, I feel amazing after a year with significant dietary changes and initial Budesonide to treat my CC, but remain very careful with fiber and not straying from my food plan.

Lately I'm very aware of some skin/ histamine sensitivity that lingers and am aware of my issues with this. As allergy season ramps up I want to remain vigilant.
I am now very intrigued with the vitamin D, Copper and Vitamin C influence.

I do take daily Vitamin D and slowly trying to add in Magnesium (orally was not working for me in the past)... and would also now like to add in Vitamin C. Would you be able to share the dosage and source for your Vitamin C? Is Copper necessary as well?
I found 'Vitamin C crystals' that I'm considering, as they were the most pure form I was guided to at the store but have not taken thorough time to research. unfortunately. My sense is the Vitamin C will help quite a bit.
Any insight will be helpful, I realize the histamine conundrum plays a huge role in my inflammation.
Thank you so much!!

[tex]

Hi Jacqeline,

My personal experience (so far) has shown that minimizing exposure to high-histamine sources is much more important than taking these supplements. That said, time will tell if taking these supplements for a while might preempt histamine issues in the future. Since I've been taking them (several months), I've continues to minimize histamine sources, but I'm beginning to reintroduce larger amounts of histamine sources now, to see if I've become more tolorant of them. So far, so good.

I'm not sure that copper has to be taken (some of us may have a copper level that's too high already, but that's usually because of a zinc deficiency). The point is, if copper is taken, it needs to be within a certain range relative to zinc. I believe that's always a safe option because it's the body's zinc/copper ratio that's important, rather than the absolute individual amounts. Here's what I'm currently taking:

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Solaray-Vitami ... Caps/70060

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Solaray-Zinc-C ... Caps/19000

I see I have this one standing by to use next, when I run out of the Solaray Zinc Copper capsules:

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Advanced-Ortho ... ules/53100

I hope this helps.

Tex

[carolm]

Hi Jacqueline-
I also take a vitamin C powder by Drs Best. It looks like this (see the link). One very small scoop (included) is 1000 mg. It’s sour or tart, but not unpleasant. My functional med doc did warn me that higher amounts of Vit C can have a laxative effect (which in my case would be a good thing). He said to not go over 5000mg. I take 2000 mg a day.

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/doctors ... QIQAvD_BwE

[Erica P-G]

Hi,

I've been taking 500mg Vitacost berry chewables in the morning and a PURE Glutathione/Cysteine C 500mg in the evenings, I also take a copper 1mg/zinc 15mg capsule daily, along with my VitD and B's.

I've been able to lay off my daily antihistamine, but I still seem to take a single 25mg benadryl at bed time. I've also cut most chicken out of my diet as well.

[mschris]

Hi Tex, CarolM and all,

I am new to this forum. Thanks for all the support and information!

I have to say I disagree about probiotics. Of course, "one man's meat is another man's poison"...this can be said about anything that we put in our mouths. But, just as there are studies that suggest that probiotics are not helpful in bowel syndromes, there are others that suggest that they are. Here is one such recent study. I could point to a number of others:

A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial: The Efficacy of Multispecies Probiotic Supplementation in Alleviating Symptoms of Irritable Bowel Syndrome Associated with Constipation.
Mezzasalma V1, Manfrini E1, Ferri E1, Sandionigi A1, La Ferla B1, Schiano I2, Michelotti A2, Nobile V2, Labra M1, Di Gennaro P1.
Author information
1
Department of Biotechnology and Biosciences, University of Milano-Bicocca, Piazza della Scienza 2, 20126 Milan, Italy.
2
Farcoderm Srl., Via Angelini 21, San Martino Siccomario, 27028 Pavia, Italy.

So while in science, I think, you can almost always say that "the jury is still out", I have seen benefits from using probiotics for various gut issues as both a practitioner and a patient. That said, the longer I deal with my own complex autoimmune issues, the more I see that this is just not a one size fits all business. We all just need to keep carefully experimenting. Best,

Chris C.

[carolm]

Hi Chris,
Welcome to the forum-
While I appreciate the research reference, I don’t think I can generalize a study for constipation prominent IBS to MC, which is autoimmune.

If you come across a study using probiotics for Lymphocytic Colitis I’d be interested in looking at it. I personally find IBS to be too vague a term to know if it applies. I know what caused my Lymphocytic Colitis and I can work on the root cause. I don’t know what causes IBS but I’ve never heard that it’s believed to be autoimmune.

I did try probiotics a few years ago and it didn’t go well. I don’t really want to revisit that episode again.

PS- that’s funny that you used ‘one-size-fits-all’ in your comment. I did the same when responding to your other post about SCD/GAPS diet.

Best wishes,
Carol

[tex]

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the group. I would have to agree with you that when treating constipation (noted as a prerequisite for participation in that study), probiotics are indicated as a viable treatment option. But I fully agree with Carol that when treating diarrhea (the primary mode of defecation associated with MC), probiotics are a very poor choice for most MC patients as a treatment option. Even the American Gastroenterological Association Institute now agrees with our position that probiotics are contraindicated in treatment programs for microscopic colitis. In mid-December, 2015, they published new guidelines for the medical management of microscopic colitis that included (among other recommendations) "In symptomatic patients, the association suggests against treatment with Boswellia serrata or probiotics vs no treatment to induce clinical remission"

New Guideline Addresses Microscopic Colitis Management

The main issue here though, is the fact that MC is definitely not IBS. "IBS" is a fictitious disease created by GI doctors a few decades ago as a cover-my-a__ concept that allowed them to avoid having to repeatedly say "I don't have the foggiest idea what's wrong with you" whenever they missed MC during a diagnostic workup (which was often, back then). If a patient fails to meet the diagnostic criteria for most known digestive diseases, then they have "IBS" (by default — not by diagnostic criteria). At any rate, the premise of that study has nothing to do with microscopic colitis.

That said, I will agree with you that there are exceptions to every rule, and there are definitely a few MC cases that claim to derive benefits from certain probiotic products. For the vast majority of us though, probiotics and prebiotics are contraindicated.

Tex

[Erica P-G]

Since everyone is different and a small few would like to test the waters with probiotics I get this newsletter and she talks about histamine and probiotic intolerance and how there are a few to stay away from and there are a few that can have some benefits for some people. As with most of us with MC don’t tolerate probiotics very well I find I do pretty good with only the saccharomyces boulardii I don’t even try anything else anymore.


Enjoy the article, it may speak to a few.


https://factvsfitness.com/probiotics-hi ... o+Purchase

[tex]

Thanks for posting that link, Erica. As you've pointed out, that should be helpful for those of us who are looking at probiotics and trying to make a decision.

Tex

[Polly]

Jumping in here.......

I agree with Tex about probiotics in MC. You have to take them daily forever, because they are not able to establish and propagate themselves in the GI tract. Also, if one of our goals is a healthy gut microbiome, then how do we know the probiotic isn't messing up an optimal balance? We want the most "good" bacterial diversity possible, and when you add a probiotic, that bacteria could predominant at the expense of other beneficial bacteria. And......I think that there is not enough info available yet about what exactly constitutes a healthy gut microbiome, complicated by the fact that it may vary from individual to individual. Personally, I have tried many different probiotics over the years with no luck, unfortunately. Obviously, if someone does have success, more power to them! But I think that is the exception.

Inflammatory bowel disease means that signs of inflammation can be found (microscopically, in the case of MC and grossly in the case Crohn's and ulcerative colitis). IBS is a "wastebasket" term, as Tex says....it is actually a "symptom complex" which means it is diagnosed by symptoms alone - there are no real findings of inflammation that can be found on current diagnostic tests. My personal belief is that many cases of IBS (and MC even) are actually due to bile acid diarrhea. We do not have a test here in the US for bile acid diarrhea like they do in the UK, so it is rarely diagnosed here. But in the UK they have found that the majority of cases of IBS seem to have an underlying bile acid problem.

The mechanism by which bile acid causes disease is this: normally, the majority of bile acids in the GI tract (95%) are reabsorbed in the terminal ileum (the last part of the small intestine) before they get into the colon. They are extremely corrosive, and when they are not absorbed, they enter the colon and irritate its lining. Hence, it causes the findings of microscopic colitis, i.e. findings of colon inflammation ("itis") under the microscopic. Bile acid diarrhea (BAD) is a significant cause of MC IMO. It is easily treated using bile acid binders like cholestyramine.

OK, jumping off my soapbox now....lol

Polly

[Erica P-G]

I really enjoy when Tex an Polly jump into a conversation you get a very Real and thorough explanation!

I can tell that after diet changes and getting some stability in the gut from that (it may not have been perfect yet) I did a cholestramine period of 7-8 months and that stabilized me better to continue healing. By the beginning of yr 3 of healing I concluded I had Candida yeast build up so went on a Nano Silver and Saccharomyces Boulardii protocol which I continue to this day, and it works for me.

[Polly]

Hi Erica!

Always good to see you on Facebook and here! So happy to know you are doing well. It really does take continued detective work to deal with this disease, no?

Love,

Polly