Hey Andrew,
Clarified butter ("ghee") is both lactose and casein free. You can purchase it at most health food stores. The brand I use is Purity Farms, which is also organic. It's in a jar on the shelf usually, not in the refrigerated section. It is a highly regarded commondity in ayurvedic medicine, and probably much better for you than any type of margarine. Just my opinion!
Be well, Celia
Andrew - Clarified butter/casein and lactose free
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Andrew - Clarified butter/casein and lactose free
I beleive in magic!
Celia,
Clarified butter is made from butter, and only butter. How the ayurvedic community can rate it as dairy free is beyond me, since a dairy product is the one and only ingredient. It is made by boiling off the water, and filtering out the solids. What is left, is called ghee. What it's chemical composition is, I don't know, but I do know that 100% of it comes from butter.
I gave ghee a serious trial about a year and a half ago, and it gave me the same reaction symptoms that butter, or any other dairy product did, at the time. Frankly, I couldn't tell the difference, (at least my gut couldn't). It gave me D, gas, bloating, the whole nine yards. For me, at least, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is made from pure duck--it's still a duck. There may be some other non-casein milk protein in there, for all I know, but something caused me to react.
At least that was my experience.
Wayne
Clarified butter is made from butter, and only butter. How the ayurvedic community can rate it as dairy free is beyond me, since a dairy product is the one and only ingredient. It is made by boiling off the water, and filtering out the solids. What is left, is called ghee. What it's chemical composition is, I don't know, but I do know that 100% of it comes from butter.
I gave ghee a serious trial about a year and a half ago, and it gave me the same reaction symptoms that butter, or any other dairy product did, at the time. Frankly, I couldn't tell the difference, (at least my gut couldn't). It gave me D, gas, bloating, the whole nine yards. For me, at least, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and is made from pure duck--it's still a duck. There may be some other non-casein milk protein in there, for all I know, but something caused me to react.
At least that was my experience.
Wayne
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Andrew,
You may not have the same results. Remember that we are all different, in many ways. The only way to find out for sure, is to try it, sometime when you feel up to a test trial.
Wayne
You may not have the same results. Remember that we are all different, in many ways. The only way to find out for sure, is to try it, sometime when you feel up to a test trial.
Wayne
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Glad you added your experience, Wayne. One thing for certain, we are all biochemically unique. I use ghee and have no trouble at all.
I'd like to add that this is not just an ayurvedic claim. I first read about it in an excellent book on IBS that has nothing to do with ayurveda. I beleive the book said that ghee is both lactose and casein free, which is what prompted me to give it a try. The product I use also says it is lactose and casein free on the label. I don't think these folks are trying to pull a fast one!
Like you point, you could have been reacting to other milk proteins present like lactalbumin, lactoglobulin, or bovine serum albumin, so ghee indeed may not be a good solution for everyone. But it works for me!
Celia
I'd like to add that this is not just an ayurvedic claim. I first read about it in an excellent book on IBS that has nothing to do with ayurveda. I beleive the book said that ghee is both lactose and casein free, which is what prompted me to give it a try. The product I use also says it is lactose and casein free on the label. I don't think these folks are trying to pull a fast one!
Like you point, you could have been reacting to other milk proteins present like lactalbumin, lactoglobulin, or bovine serum albumin, so ghee indeed may not be a good solution for everyone. But it works for me!
Celia
I beleive in magic!
Wayne and all,
Quack,Quack. LOL
My experience with ghee was the same as Wayne’s. I could not say it any better than he has. I thought that I did not react to it in the beginning but after using a small amount every few days for a week their was no question in my mind , or gut, that it was not the best thing for me. In fact, quite the opposite
From my view point now , anything made from milk from a cow is a lot of bull. HaHaHa. Must be a good stand up comic joke their somewhere.
I don’t miss the butter or margarine. In fact was just wondering what I would do with it since a sandwich or toast is long in the past. When I cook meat or fish I use only the smallest amount of olive oil. I pour off the fat when it is done and deglaze the pan with some , vegetable, chicken, beef or fish stock depending on what I am cooking. In other words dissolve all the brown bits in the bottom of the pan by adding a little stock and then pour it over the meat , squash, vegetables or potatoes (if you can eat them)......... Such incredibly good flavor compared to just adding unflavored fats to my food .
IMHO I have found that being casein intolerant means you never consume milk products again and because of it have found even more delicious alternatives.
To your continued recovery
Matthew
I freeze leftover stock in ice cube trays and when frozen move them to a plastic bag in the freezer. Deglazing the pan is as simple as throwing in a “Stock Cube”
Quack,Quack. LOL
My experience with ghee was the same as Wayne’s. I could not say it any better than he has. I thought that I did not react to it in the beginning but after using a small amount every few days for a week their was no question in my mind , or gut, that it was not the best thing for me. In fact, quite the opposite
From my view point now , anything made from milk from a cow is a lot of bull. HaHaHa. Must be a good stand up comic joke their somewhere.
I don’t miss the butter or margarine. In fact was just wondering what I would do with it since a sandwich or toast is long in the past. When I cook meat or fish I use only the smallest amount of olive oil. I pour off the fat when it is done and deglaze the pan with some , vegetable, chicken, beef or fish stock depending on what I am cooking. In other words dissolve all the brown bits in the bottom of the pan by adding a little stock and then pour it over the meat , squash, vegetables or potatoes (if you can eat them)......... Such incredibly good flavor compared to just adding unflavored fats to my food .
IMHO I have found that being casein intolerant means you never consume milk products again and because of it have found even more delicious alternatives.
To your continued recovery
Matthew
I freeze leftover stock in ice cube trays and when frozen move them to a plastic bag in the freezer. Deglazing the pan is as simple as throwing in a “Stock Cube”
Wayne and Matthew,
I found that reference on ghee, which comes from What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About IBS, by Richard N. Ash, MD.
The book has an entire chapter on milk intolerance. The author is adamant about recommending a non-dairy diet for people with IBS.
At the same time, he recommends the use of clarified butter. He says that the whey is removed in the process, making clarified butter less allergenic than regular butter. When he gives the recipe for making homemade clarified butter, he says again that since the whey is removed during the preparation, it is acceptable for people with milk intolerance. In the process, the water has evaporated and the protein solids separate from the original butter. You then skim off the liquid, leaving the sediment (e.g. the protein solids).
I am not at all dismissing the fact that you both react to ghee. I just wanted to share this explanation of why it is said to be casein and lactose free. Of course, we all react to different things. That's why this forum is so incredibly useful as we can learn from each other's experience. However, I'm not sure the duck theory applies in this instance!
Be well, Celia
I found that reference on ghee, which comes from What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About IBS, by Richard N. Ash, MD.
The book has an entire chapter on milk intolerance. The author is adamant about recommending a non-dairy diet for people with IBS.
At the same time, he recommends the use of clarified butter. He says that the whey is removed in the process, making clarified butter less allergenic than regular butter. When he gives the recipe for making homemade clarified butter, he says again that since the whey is removed during the preparation, it is acceptable for people with milk intolerance. In the process, the water has evaporated and the protein solids separate from the original butter. You then skim off the liquid, leaving the sediment (e.g. the protein solids).
I am not at all dismissing the fact that you both react to ghee. I just wanted to share this explanation of why it is said to be casein and lactose free. Of course, we all react to different things. That's why this forum is so incredibly useful as we can learn from each other's experience. However, I'm not sure the duck theory applies in this instance!
Be well, Celia
I beleive in magic!
-
artteacher
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 731
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 pm
.
Hi Celia,
I too have read multiple books that say ghee is safe for dairy sensitive people. But I made some, and got just as sick from it as if it were straight butter. I never thought about it till now, but maybe it's because some people are sensitive to the dairy lectins, not the whey or casein. I don't know if lectins remain after the skimming and settling, but it's a thought. (Lectins are glycoproteins that are similar to human tissue, and both damage the intestinal lining and set off autoimmune symptoms) Anyway, those are my thoughts on it- I've been reading the discussion and mulling it over.l
See ya - Love, Marsha
I too have read multiple books that say ghee is safe for dairy sensitive people. But I made some, and got just as sick from it as if it were straight butter. I never thought about it till now, but maybe it's because some people are sensitive to the dairy lectins, not the whey or casein. I don't know if lectins remain after the skimming and settling, but it's a thought. (Lectins are glycoproteins that are similar to human tissue, and both damage the intestinal lining and set off autoimmune symptoms) Anyway, those are my thoughts on it- I've been reading the discussion and mulling it over.l
See ya - Love, Marsha
Celia,
Both before and after I tried ghee, I studied numerous sites and their descriptions of how ghee is made, both commercially and at home. The problem is, the separation processes are crude and incomplete. They consist of boiling off the volatiles, and mechanical separation of the solids, (filtering or skimming). If I recall correctly, some of the home recipes suggest filtering through cloth filters of various types.
According to Wilipedia,
which, of course, is simply a rephrasing of what you said.
The problem with this, is that spooning off the liquid, and taking care not to disturb the milk solids on the bottom of the pan, does not cut the mustard. That's a lot like saying "wash your hands, being careful to remove ALL the germs". It ain't gonna happen, in most cases. Running it through a centrifuge first, might help, but spooning and filtering are not only imperfect processes, they are VERY imperfect processes. Smaller particles take longer to settle, and are more easily disloged by undercurrents produced when a spoon is dragged through the liquid. The question of how long to wait, to allow those tiny particles to settle in the first place, is never addressed, but the problem definitely exists. The other problem that is never addressed, is the fact that some of the casein is almost certainly in solution, and will not separate out by gravity alone.
The cloth filters that are used, for example, allow the passage of relatively large particles, as far as material separation is concerned. When dealing with contaminants, one must be concerned with separation on the order of just a few microns, in most cases. (A micron is one millionth of a meter, or slightly less than one twenty-five thousandths of an inch). Dust is usually sized on the order of two to ten microns and upward. You can't get that kind of separation from a sieve, or a cloth filter, it requires either a paper filter, or some other type of special membrane.
The commercial processes may well give a separation of 99.99%, for all I know, which is fine for people who are not sensitive to one of the ingredients. When one is truly sensitive to a product, however, 99.99% is often not good enough.
An additional problem is that virtually no products are 100% pure. We get a tiny amount of gluten or casein here, and a little more there, so just because a product may pass the international standards for gluten free, for example, does not mean that it is safe for all of us to eat. It means that it will probably be safe for some of us. It will only be safe if the total sum of contaminants in ALL the food you eat, is below the safe level for you , (not the level that an international panel of experts arbitrarily assigns for commercial standards of production).
Therefore when we knowingly eat a product that is advertised as safe for us, but we know that it may be pushing the limits, due to impurities, we are definitely taking a risk, because of the problem of cumulative contamination amounts from all sources in our diet. Also, if we should eat twice the rated serving, then we are ingesting twice the amount of contaminant, which may possibly trigger a reaction.
The bottom line is, ghee is refined butter, and it is still a dairy product. (How could it be anything else--dairy is it's one and only ingredient). Also, one of the things that bothers me about it, is some of the unrealistic claims made by promoters. If it were the greatest thing since sliced bread, they wouldn't need to make such outrageous claims. For example, look at the comments in the left hand column, beside the product ad, in this "Quackwatch" page:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... /ghee.html
Ghee is probably a perfectly good product, (well, at least an OK product), for those who do not react to it, so long as they ingore the inflated claims for it. For those of us with MC, it deserves careful consideration.
Wayne
P S Marsha . . . Very good point. Most of the plant lectins, (most of which probably survived the rather anemic pasturization process used these days), should be destroyed by the boiling process, if it is properly done. That doesn't mean that they are all neutralized, though.
Both before and after I tried ghee, I studied numerous sites and their descriptions of how ghee is made, both commercially and at home. The problem is, the separation processes are crude and incomplete. They consist of boiling off the volatiles, and mechanical separation of the solids, (filtering or skimming). If I recall correctly, some of the home recipes suggest filtering through cloth filters of various types.
According to Wilipedia,
,Ghee is made by simmering unsalted butter in a large pot, until its water has boiled off and its protein has settled to the bottom. The clarified butter is then spooned off, taking care not to disturb the milk solids on the bottom of the pan.
which, of course, is simply a rephrasing of what you said.
The problem with this, is that spooning off the liquid, and taking care not to disturb the milk solids on the bottom of the pan, does not cut the mustard. That's a lot like saying "wash your hands, being careful to remove ALL the germs". It ain't gonna happen, in most cases. Running it through a centrifuge first, might help, but spooning and filtering are not only imperfect processes, they are VERY imperfect processes. Smaller particles take longer to settle, and are more easily disloged by undercurrents produced when a spoon is dragged through the liquid. The question of how long to wait, to allow those tiny particles to settle in the first place, is never addressed, but the problem definitely exists. The other problem that is never addressed, is the fact that some of the casein is almost certainly in solution, and will not separate out by gravity alone.
The cloth filters that are used, for example, allow the passage of relatively large particles, as far as material separation is concerned. When dealing with contaminants, one must be concerned with separation on the order of just a few microns, in most cases. (A micron is one millionth of a meter, or slightly less than one twenty-five thousandths of an inch). Dust is usually sized on the order of two to ten microns and upward. You can't get that kind of separation from a sieve, or a cloth filter, it requires either a paper filter, or some other type of special membrane.
The commercial processes may well give a separation of 99.99%, for all I know, which is fine for people who are not sensitive to one of the ingredients. When one is truly sensitive to a product, however, 99.99% is often not good enough.
An additional problem is that virtually no products are 100% pure. We get a tiny amount of gluten or casein here, and a little more there, so just because a product may pass the international standards for gluten free, for example, does not mean that it is safe for all of us to eat. It means that it will probably be safe for some of us. It will only be safe if the total sum of contaminants in ALL the food you eat, is below the safe level for you , (not the level that an international panel of experts arbitrarily assigns for commercial standards of production).
Therefore when we knowingly eat a product that is advertised as safe for us, but we know that it may be pushing the limits, due to impurities, we are definitely taking a risk, because of the problem of cumulative contamination amounts from all sources in our diet. Also, if we should eat twice the rated serving, then we are ingesting twice the amount of contaminant, which may possibly trigger a reaction.
The bottom line is, ghee is refined butter, and it is still a dairy product. (How could it be anything else--dairy is it's one and only ingredient). Also, one of the things that bothers me about it, is some of the unrealistic claims made by promoters. If it were the greatest thing since sliced bread, they wouldn't need to make such outrageous claims. For example, look at the comments in the left hand column, beside the product ad, in this "Quackwatch" page:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... /ghee.html
Ghee is probably a perfectly good product, (well, at least an OK product), for those who do not react to it, so long as they ingore the inflated claims for it. For those of us with MC, it deserves careful consideration.
Wayne
P S Marsha . . . Very good point. Most of the plant lectins, (most of which probably survived the rather anemic pasturization process used these days), should be destroyed by the boiling process, if it is properly done. That doesn't mean that they are all neutralized, though.
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Oh gosh, I hope I didn't make a stir over this! I was just trying to be helpful to Andrew and share information I thought was accurate. I am happy to stand corrected and will be more careful in the future! I sure wouldn't want any one to get sick because I gave some dumb advice. Celia
I beleive in magic!
Celia,
Please don't stop offering helpful suggestions because of this thread. You certainly didn't do anything wrong, and you didn't give any "dumb" advice. The reason we are so well aquainted with this particular problem, is because we hashed it out about a year and a half ago, thus the "deja vu" that Jean mentioned. You had no way of knowing that in advance, since it was on the old board.
We always appreciate any and all beneficial suggestions. That's how we learn new things, and when we research the suggestions, we usually learn a lot more. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't, but since we are all different, it usually takes some trial and error to work out the details. Whether something works for very many of us, or not, the information is still valuable for the database of information here, for the benefit of all who come here to learn.
Thanks for giving us the opportunity to compare notes on ghee. To be honest, I didn't realize that anyone else had reacted to it, the way I did, until I read all the posts in this thread.
Please keep the ideas coming,
Wayne
Please don't stop offering helpful suggestions because of this thread. You certainly didn't do anything wrong, and you didn't give any "dumb" advice. The reason we are so well aquainted with this particular problem, is because we hashed it out about a year and a half ago, thus the "deja vu" that Jean mentioned. You had no way of knowing that in advance, since it was on the old board.
We always appreciate any and all beneficial suggestions. That's how we learn new things, and when we research the suggestions, we usually learn a lot more. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't, but since we are all different, it usually takes some trial and error to work out the details. Whether something works for very many of us, or not, the information is still valuable for the database of information here, for the benefit of all who come here to learn.
Thanks for giving us the opportunity to compare notes on ghee. To be honest, I didn't realize that anyone else had reacted to it, the way I did, until I read all the posts in this thread.
Please keep the ideas coming,
Wayne
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.