The Lorain Cordain book finally arrived, and I gobbled it up. Very interesting. Thanks for the recommendation, Polly. I found lots of useful information like the section on oils for example, not that I ever used the bad fats, but it's helpful to see the good fats ranked. I went out and bought a bottle of canola oil right away. (I react to flax seed so that oil is not an option for me.)
I don't want to offend anyone, but just to be honest, I am still a little flabergasted by the amount of meat that is recommended. One example used was 190 g. in a single day for a woman. Do you all eat that much meat? I'm eating around 85 g per day. Celia
Polly and Paleos - Got the book
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Polly and Paleos - Got the book
I beleive in magic!
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artteacher
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 731
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 pm
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Hi Celia,
For myself, I eat a lot of meat. Part of that might be that so many other things are no-no's, and NOBODY eats as many vegetables as they should. In an ideal world, I know I'd eat a deck-of-card-size chunk of meat 3-4 times a day, and AT LEAST that many vegetables. I mean well, and I know I should, but the reality is different, of course.
That said, at least 2 times a week, I have vegetable soup with small chunks of meat in it for breakfast, and two servings of vegetables at dinner with the obligatory meat.
Isn't that the main criticism of the high protein diets? That they're too high in protein? I don't think that's because they are intended to be that way (people are supposed to eat tons of vegetables, too), but nobody does; they just eat meat.
Everybody except Matt. I think he is the best example around here of how to stick to a diet suited to their needs. Love you, Matt!
Marsha
For myself, I eat a lot of meat. Part of that might be that so many other things are no-no's, and NOBODY eats as many vegetables as they should. In an ideal world, I know I'd eat a deck-of-card-size chunk of meat 3-4 times a day, and AT LEAST that many vegetables. I mean well, and I know I should, but the reality is different, of course.
That said, at least 2 times a week, I have vegetable soup with small chunks of meat in it for breakfast, and two servings of vegetables at dinner with the obligatory meat.
Isn't that the main criticism of the high protein diets? That they're too high in protein? I don't think that's because they are intended to be that way (people are supposed to eat tons of vegetables, too), but nobody does; they just eat meat.
Everybody except Matt. I think he is the best example around here of how to stick to a diet suited to their needs. Love you, Matt!
Marsha
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barbaranoela
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 5394
- Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 6:11 pm
- Location: New York
Hi Celia---
Im not one of the *cave* tenents :) and I wish U good luck with it----
I use Canola oil----and sometimes for a lunch or supper I might have a plate of asssorted veggies---plus sweet potatoes--which I luve--
I bake a few---mash em up and this way I have them ready to scoop into my dish---for the rest of the week--
I like meats---but since Lou and I eat so differently, I dont get too much of that in me--
The best I do is chicken---fish---and every one in awhile a nice piece of filet mignon(fav) and pot roast~~~~this Lou luves----yippee!!!
Agrees with Marsha---Matt gets an A+ with his diet~~~
luve, Barbara
Im not one of the *cave* tenents :) and I wish U good luck with it----
I use Canola oil----and sometimes for a lunch or supper I might have a plate of asssorted veggies---plus sweet potatoes--which I luve--
I bake a few---mash em up and this way I have them ready to scoop into my dish---for the rest of the week--
I like meats---but since Lou and I eat so differently, I dont get too much of that in me--
The best I do is chicken---fish---and every one in awhile a nice piece of filet mignon(fav) and pot roast~~~~this Lou luves----yippee!!!
Agrees with Marsha---Matt gets an A+ with his diet~~~
luve, Barbara
the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control
Celia,
190 grams is only 6.7 ounces. You're only eating 3 ounces of meat a day. That's not very much. I probably average 16 to 20 ounces, (450-550 gms), per day.
Of course I'm not the same gender as you, but IMHO, I think you need to at least double your meat ingestion, if you want to halt your negative weight trend, and reverse it, with your limited diet choices. Our Paleo ancestors were primarily carnivores, not herbivores.
It would be interesting to learn how much meat Karen eats, since she is close to your height, and definitely hooked on the paleo diet. I'm sure that Polly could provide some good insight on that, also.
Tex
190 grams is only 6.7 ounces. You're only eating 3 ounces of meat a day. That's not very much. I probably average 16 to 20 ounces, (450-550 gms), per day.
Of course I'm not the same gender as you, but IMHO, I think you need to at least double your meat ingestion, if you want to halt your negative weight trend, and reverse it, with your limited diet choices. Our Paleo ancestors were primarily carnivores, not herbivores.
It would be interesting to learn how much meat Karen eats, since she is close to your height, and definitely hooked on the paleo diet. I'm sure that Polly could provide some good insight on that, also.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Tex, That gave me a good laugh! The way that I calculated it, 190 grams of protein is approximately 27 ounces of red meat based on 1 oz of beef = 7 ounces of protein.
I think we are missing each other somehow! I am sure what you say makes sense, because you are almost always right I have observed. But we must be mixing apples and oranges. I am definitely not a math whiz, but I checked this with my husband who has an MA in statistics and it made sense to him.
Just to reassure you all, I eat between 3 (beef) and 5 (fish) ounces of meat or fish per meal, so between 9 and 12 ounces per day. But on pork chop day, trying to gain some weight, I ate almost 16 ounces. I definitely felt very full, which was a good feeling for a change, but slightly too full. Guess that counts as pigging out!
OK, bad joke. But it is interesting to hear how much protein you eat Tex. I'm not that far behind you for being a slight one.
Take care, Celia
I think we are missing each other somehow! I am sure what you say makes sense, because you are almost always right I have observed. But we must be mixing apples and oranges. I am definitely not a math whiz, but I checked this with my husband who has an MA in statistics and it made sense to him.
Just to reassure you all, I eat between 3 (beef) and 5 (fish) ounces of meat or fish per meal, so between 9 and 12 ounces per day. But on pork chop day, trying to gain some weight, I ate almost 16 ounces. I definitely felt very full, which was a good feeling for a change, but slightly too full. Guess that counts as pigging out!
OK, bad joke. But it is interesting to hear how much protein you eat Tex. I'm not that far behind you for being a slight one.
Take care, Celia
I beleive in magic!
Celia,
You're right. Hahahahahaha. Obviously we're not on the same page.
I was going by what you said in your first post:
Sooooooo, does Cordain recommend 190 grams of meat, or protein, per day for a woman?
Tex
P S One ounce of beef contains 7 grams of protein, (not seven ounces of protein). Therefore, if you are seeking a protein ingeston level of 190 grams, then yes, it would take slightly over 27 ounces of beef to provide that amount of protein.
P P S You're right, if the 85 grams you mentioned is the amount of protein you ingest per day, (rather than meat), then you are eating a fair amount of meat. The thing is, meat does not necessarily cause weight gain. It will increase muscle mass, but shouldn't contribute significantly to fat deposits, (contrary to some claims by people with their own agenda). For that, you need carbs.
You're right. Hahahahahaha. Obviously we're not on the same page.
I was going by what you said in your first post:
Note that you never mentioned the word "protein" in your initial post. You only "talked" about meat. I haven't read Cordain's book, so I assumed that the 190 grams that you mentioned, referred to meat, not protein, since meat was the concept that you were discussing. Because you're a professional writer, I took your description at face value.I don't want to offend anyone, but just to be honest, I am still a little flabergasted by the amount of meat that is recommended. One example used was 190 g. in a single day for a woman. Do you all eat that much meat? I'm eating around 85 g per day.
Sooooooo, does Cordain recommend 190 grams of meat, or protein, per day for a woman?
Tex
P S One ounce of beef contains 7 grams of protein, (not seven ounces of protein). Therefore, if you are seeking a protein ingeston level of 190 grams, then yes, it would take slightly over 27 ounces of beef to provide that amount of protein.
P P S You're right, if the 85 grams you mentioned is the amount of protein you ingest per day, (rather than meat), then you are eating a fair amount of meat. The thing is, meat does not necessarily cause weight gain. It will increase muscle mass, but shouldn't contribute significantly to fat deposits, (contrary to some claims by people with their own agenda). For that, you need carbs.
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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MaggieRedwings
- King Penguin
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- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 3:16 am
- Location: SE Pennsylvania
Morning Marsha,
I am the one that you missed that absolutely gets more than enough recommended veggies each and every day. Being a vegan I do not eat any meat and veggies are a major part of my diet. The leafy greens however, have dwindled some since I have very bad D reactions to them.
Love, Maggie
I am the one that you missed that absolutely gets more than enough recommended veggies each and every day. Being a vegan I do not eat any meat and veggies are a major part of my diet. The leafy greens however, have dwindled some since I have very bad D reactions to them.
Love, Maggie
Maggie Scarpone
___________________
Resident Birder - I live to bird and enjoy life!
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Resident Birder - I live to bird and enjoy life!
Tex,
Yes, the mistake is definately mine, not yours! I saw that very clearly when I looked back at my original post but it was after I wrote the second post and it was late. Sorry if it seemed like I was implying the mistake was yours. I was just laughing at the notion that I only eat 3 ounces of meat a day, not at your logic by any means!!!!! Thanks for the corrections.
Being a professional writer these days is overcome by the heavy metals in my brain. I have to check all my work very carefully before I submit it. One of my symptoms is words substitution. Sometimes I am not as thorough when I submit a post here, this being fun and all.
Lots of love to you, Celia
P. S. I'm with Maggie and Matthew on the veggies. I eat loads. Yesterday was fennel. Many times, the cashiers at a normal grocery store are stumped by what vegetables I am buying.
Yes, the mistake is definately mine, not yours! I saw that very clearly when I looked back at my original post but it was after I wrote the second post and it was late. Sorry if it seemed like I was implying the mistake was yours. I was just laughing at the notion that I only eat 3 ounces of meat a day, not at your logic by any means!!!!! Thanks for the corrections.
Being a professional writer these days is overcome by the heavy metals in my brain. I have to check all my work very carefully before I submit it. One of my symptoms is words substitution. Sometimes I am not as thorough when I submit a post here, this being fun and all.
Lots of love to you, Celia
P. S. I'm with Maggie and Matthew on the veggies. I eat loads. Yesterday was fennel. Many times, the cashiers at a normal grocery store are stumped by what vegetables I am buying.
I beleive in magic!
Mornin' Celia!
Yes, I'll have to admit that I was amazed by the amounts of animal protein recommended. I was a vegetarian for 12 years before the MC hit (I think that may have been one of the factors that precipitated the MC - all those whole grains, since now I eat none and feel so much better).
Cordain is very careful to recommend range-fed/wild animals, which, of course, have much healthier fat - even those good omega 3s. I think I read somewhere that a good ratio to aim for is 50% of calories from animal protein and 50% from fruits/vegs. and a small amount of nuts. That's a lot of veggies and fruits!.
Audette, who wrote "Neanderthin" is much less concerned about the amount or type of fats. He does not emphasize range-fed, and his sample menu includes up to 20 eggs per week. Yikes!
Dr. Fine eats primarily veggies, fruits, and nuts, with an occasional serving of salmon. I'm not totally sure of the reason for his avoiding meat, but I think he told me that it is often immunogenic for him. Also, I know that he tries to eat all organic.
Here's what I have come to believe - the diet we need depends upon our individual genes. That's why there is so much confusion in the world of nutrition. Some people do well on one diet and others do poorly - it's all in the GENES and not in the DIET, IMHO.
Since fat content is a major concern about eating meat, my suggestion is to get our blood chemistries done after a reasonable amount of time to see exactly what happens in our bodies while eating the caveman diet. There have been reports of folks whose cholesterol/triglycerides and LDL go down and HDL goes up dramatically once they start eating large amounts of meats and eggs. Just the opposite of what the medical profession tells us! These are probably folks with caveman genes.
We know that eating meat/eggs will not necessarily raise the blood lipids. Conversely, avoiding meat does not guarantee low cholesterol. Right, Maggie? (Maggie recently posted here about her sky-high cholesterol - despite being a vegan for so many years. A real bummer, but the old genes at work again, I guess).
Anyway, I am overdue for bloodwork - my internist ordered it last year but I never made it to the lab. I know, I know....."physician, heal thyself".
LOL! But I will go now because I am curious to see what has happened now that I am a cavewoman.
The other major concern is that too much animal protein will lead to chronic disease and some cancers. However, my hunch is that if one eats those huge amounts of veggies/fruits, much of that concern would be offset because of all of those wonderful antioxidants, flavinoids, luteins, etc. I think huge amount of produce are the key - plus adding the healthy fats (from range-fed animals, nuts, the good oils, etc.)
Happy eating! Or should I say "Happy figuring out what the hell to eat?"
Love,
Polly
Yes, I'll have to admit that I was amazed by the amounts of animal protein recommended. I was a vegetarian for 12 years before the MC hit (I think that may have been one of the factors that precipitated the MC - all those whole grains, since now I eat none and feel so much better).
Cordain is very careful to recommend range-fed/wild animals, which, of course, have much healthier fat - even those good omega 3s. I think I read somewhere that a good ratio to aim for is 50% of calories from animal protein and 50% from fruits/vegs. and a small amount of nuts. That's a lot of veggies and fruits!.
Audette, who wrote "Neanderthin" is much less concerned about the amount or type of fats. He does not emphasize range-fed, and his sample menu includes up to 20 eggs per week. Yikes!
Dr. Fine eats primarily veggies, fruits, and nuts, with an occasional serving of salmon. I'm not totally sure of the reason for his avoiding meat, but I think he told me that it is often immunogenic for him. Also, I know that he tries to eat all organic.
Here's what I have come to believe - the diet we need depends upon our individual genes. That's why there is so much confusion in the world of nutrition. Some people do well on one diet and others do poorly - it's all in the GENES and not in the DIET, IMHO.
Since fat content is a major concern about eating meat, my suggestion is to get our blood chemistries done after a reasonable amount of time to see exactly what happens in our bodies while eating the caveman diet. There have been reports of folks whose cholesterol/triglycerides and LDL go down and HDL goes up dramatically once they start eating large amounts of meats and eggs. Just the opposite of what the medical profession tells us! These are probably folks with caveman genes.
We know that eating meat/eggs will not necessarily raise the blood lipids. Conversely, avoiding meat does not guarantee low cholesterol. Right, Maggie? (Maggie recently posted here about her sky-high cholesterol - despite being a vegan for so many years. A real bummer, but the old genes at work again, I guess).
Anyway, I am overdue for bloodwork - my internist ordered it last year but I never made it to the lab. I know, I know....."physician, heal thyself".
LOL! But I will go now because I am curious to see what has happened now that I am a cavewoman.
The other major concern is that too much animal protein will lead to chronic disease and some cancers. However, my hunch is that if one eats those huge amounts of veggies/fruits, much of that concern would be offset because of all of those wonderful antioxidants, flavinoids, luteins, etc. I think huge amount of produce are the key - plus adding the healthy fats (from range-fed animals, nuts, the good oils, etc.)
Happy eating! Or should I say "Happy figuring out what the hell to eat?"
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
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barbaranoela
- Emperor Penguin
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- Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 6:11 pm
- Location: New York
Regarding personal lifestyles, I'd like to make this observation:
If you're the type of caveman or cavewoman who is likely to run down and catch your food, then you need more of the concentrated energy found in animal flesh. If you're more likely to spend most of your time grazing for your nutrients, then you obviously don't need as much animal protein to keep you going. A convenient relationship, is it not?
IOW, if you are very active, and/or spend the day doing hard physical labor, then a high level of animal protein is almost essential, since trying to reach that level of energy by eating fruits and veggies will cause you to be so full that your work ability can suffer.
I spend a lot of days stacking 50 lb. bags on pallets, and work like that is much easier, if my gut is not so full. There's no way I could do it without eating a lot of meat. Digestion can require a lot of energy, which cuts down on the amount of work that can be done over time, (IOW, endurance). YMMV.
Love,
Wayne
P S No, I wouldn't have to be stacking bags, I have a work crew. However, it's excellent exercise, so why not take advantage of it? It's very satisfying work, especially considering that a lot of guys in their 20s and 30s can't stand up to it for more than a few hours at a time.
If you're the type of caveman or cavewoman who is likely to run down and catch your food, then you need more of the concentrated energy found in animal flesh. If you're more likely to spend most of your time grazing for your nutrients, then you obviously don't need as much animal protein to keep you going. A convenient relationship, is it not?
IOW, if you are very active, and/or spend the day doing hard physical labor, then a high level of animal protein is almost essential, since trying to reach that level of energy by eating fruits and veggies will cause you to be so full that your work ability can suffer.
I spend a lot of days stacking 50 lb. bags on pallets, and work like that is much easier, if my gut is not so full. There's no way I could do it without eating a lot of meat. Digestion can require a lot of energy, which cuts down on the amount of work that can be done over time, (IOW, endurance). YMMV.
Love,
Wayne
P S No, I wouldn't have to be stacking bags, I have a work crew. However, it's excellent exercise, so why not take advantage of it? It's very satisfying work, especially considering that a lot of guys in their 20s and 30s can't stand up to it for more than a few hours at a time.
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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artteacher
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 731
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 pm
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OOPS, sorry Maggie.
Of course I should be talking for myself only about those vegetables. You know, I LIKE vegetables. But if you live with someone whose only vegetable is canned corn, whaddaya gonna do?
Marsha
Of course I should be talking for myself only about those vegetables. You know, I LIKE vegetables. But if you live with someone whose only vegetable is canned corn, whaddaya gonna do?
MarshaI find it difficult to get more than one complete meal in per day, complete meaning a meat, or shrimp, or foul, etc., vegetables, and a little rice, or other acceptable starch, usually. I'm usually filled to the brim, as Wayne stated, so understand about the difficulty doing hard work while the gut's full of hard-to-digest salad, for example.
Tonight, for example, I ate half of a 10 oz grilled sirloin steak, half of a huge sweet potato (plain, of course), and a dinner salad that might've been enough all by itself, but I ate every bite of all of these. For the dressing, I mixed half of honey and half off French's mustard(maybe a smaller fraction of mustard, but anyway). 5 oz Cooked slightly longer than medium well isn't a whole lot of meat, particularly since I didn't have any leftovers. Think if I'd always have leftovers for breakfast, that'd I just might do a little better in the meat totals. I'm still struggling to get totally off of Coca Cola so that my blood sugar will tell me when I'm hungry, but I do get LOTS of colorful veggies, be it only once a day.
Also, I eat Larabars and fresh fruits, but tonight, the sleepies are so bad, that I'm not sure why I started this post.
Nite all, Luce
Tonight, for example, I ate half of a 10 oz grilled sirloin steak, half of a huge sweet potato (plain, of course), and a dinner salad that might've been enough all by itself, but I ate every bite of all of these. For the dressing, I mixed half of honey and half off French's mustard(maybe a smaller fraction of mustard, but anyway). 5 oz Cooked slightly longer than medium well isn't a whole lot of meat, particularly since I didn't have any leftovers. Think if I'd always have leftovers for breakfast, that'd I just might do a little better in the meat totals. I'm still struggling to get totally off of Coca Cola so that my blood sugar will tell me when I'm hungry, but I do get LOTS of colorful veggies, be it only once a day.
Also, I eat Larabars and fresh fruits, but tonight, the sleepies are so bad, that I'm not sure why I started this post.
Nite all, Luce
I admire anyone with the ability to quantitatively analyze their diet down to the grams of protein they eat. With a big smile I can say it it a bit beyond my abilities. Just as my work and my life has always been far more from the intuitive side so has been my approach to what and how much I eat. Most meals my plate is 25% meat and 75% vegetables. No way this is written in stone. Wayne has made an important point . The proportions change with the activity level. Last weekend I worked for about five hours and then bicycled 30 miles into the foothills and was still hungry for more protein after a great diner. The last couple of days has been spent at the drafting board doing proposals and at the computer finishing my taxes and the chicken breast I barbecued along with my usual vegetables was just way to much to encompass.
Hoping not to belabor a point of view I have found a great deal of truth and better health in Dr. Fine’s article on nutrition.
http://www.finerhealth.com/Educational_Info/Nutrition/
These are the points from the article that have been my guides for some time along with just paying attention to how I feel.
3. Always eat the minimum amount of food that it takes for hunger to be satiated (the dose concept), and eat frequently (usually every 2-3 hours) but only as determined by your hunger
11. Learn what foods make you and your stomach and intestine feel the best and feed an abundance of these
19. Recognize when eating has continued beyond its caloric purpose and employ methods to stop
22. For adequate weight control and overall good health and nutrition, you must eat with your head not just your gut.
To your continued recovery
Matthew
Hoping not to belabor a point of view I have found a great deal of truth and better health in Dr. Fine’s article on nutrition.
http://www.finerhealth.com/Educational_Info/Nutrition/
These are the points from the article that have been my guides for some time along with just paying attention to how I feel.
3. Always eat the minimum amount of food that it takes for hunger to be satiated (the dose concept), and eat frequently (usually every 2-3 hours) but only as determined by your hunger
11. Learn what foods make you and your stomach and intestine feel the best and feed an abundance of these
19. Recognize when eating has continued beyond its caloric purpose and employ methods to stop
22. For adequate weight control and overall good health and nutrition, you must eat with your head not just your gut.
To your continued recovery
Matthew