Polly, You're Right--We're Better Off Without Vitamins

[tex]

I've been wanting to post this for several weeks, but never seemed to have the time. There was an article on page R1, in the March 20, 2006 issue of the Wall Streety Journal, which summarized the results of a lot of studies on vitamins, which have been recently reported. The results, as a whole, don't shed a very favorable light on vitamin supplements.

For example, beta carotene has been promoted as a cancer fighter, but recent test results indicate that it promotes lung cancer, in a study of former smokers. Vitamin A has been used by many, to boost the immune system, but new evidence indicates that it can increase a woman's risk for hip fracture by as much as 48%. Apparently too many foods are being fortified with vitamin A these days, and we are already ingesting an overdose.

No one knows why high doses of vitamins cause problems, but it may have something to do with "free radicals", which are byproducts of normal chemical reactions within our cells. Normally, the body deals with free radicals by means of the immune system, which fights the free radicals and then repairs the damage. Many people take high doses of vitamins to get rid of the free radicals, but that may short-circuit the immune system's normal function, and so the immune system does not repair the damage that is caused by the free radicals. If the damage is not repaired, disease ensues

Vitamin E has been thought to be beneficial for heart health, and it is also being studied as a possible way to help with Alzheimer's disease, and to prevent prostate cancer. Last year, Johns Hopkins University researchers revealed that clinical trials indicate that high doses of vitamin E, (above 400 IUs), increase the risk of death by 4 %, and when taken with other vitamins and minerals, the risk of death is increased by 6%. Vitamin E also seems to hinder the effectiveness of treatments. For example, patients with head and neck cancer, who were being treated by radiation, had a 37% higher cancer recurrence rate, if they took 400 IUs of vitamin E, as compared with patients who took a placebo. The vitamin E supplementation did reduce the side effects of the radiation therapy by 30 %, but that's small comfort, when compared with a 37% increase in the cancer recurrence rate.

Vitamin C is also contraindicated for patients undergoing cancer treatment, since the cancer cells gobble up the vitamin C faster than normal cells, and therefore derive more benefit from the vitamin C than the normal cells. Cancer cells seem to become resistant to chemotheraphy drugs, after being treated with vitamin C. IOW, cancer cells love nutrients. This makes me wonder if maybe one reason why we sometimes see such a wide variation in the rates at which cancer develops, may be due to the unintentional "feeding" of cancers with nutrients, by means of supplements, in some cases.

Most doctors and health experts now suggest that if someone feels the need to take vitamins, they should stick to multivitamins, rather than to take megadoses of various vitamins. Even multivitamin supplementation is questionable, though, since it has never been proven to be beneficial, and recent studies have shown that there is no difference in infections, and/or doctor visits, whether people take vitamin supplements or not.

Bear in mind, though, that all these recommendations are for "normal" people, not people with malabsorption problems, and/or compromised digestive systems.

Tex

[barbaranoela]

Wayne------

I wanted to take different vitamins---my GI said--NO----a multiple Vit. is fine-----no additon of abcdefgh etc--

And my fav. doc. Kozin---said the same thing--

Now if U look in Lou's cabinet----he is loaded with various vitamins??
It makes him feel *better*(brainwise) so

And rightO---I read all this medical stuff---and listen to Dr. Rosenfeld on Fox News and they dont seem to ADVOCATE TAKE THESE VIT.

Matter of fact----a bit costly----but they both told me that the Viactive Chewable Vit. are just fine----and Delicious besides--

So now I am off to lunch~~~~

Keep a smile
Barbara

[grannyh]

I gave up on vitamins when I finished the last expensive bottle of "Bluebonnet" I think they were called.

My husband has a shelf of vitamins that he insists on taking every day.. he seems to know what they are all for.. but basically I think he reads about one and then decides to take it..LOL
grannyh

[tex]

LOL. Yep, they all sound like something you can't afford to be without, when you read the ads, don't they.

Tex

[grannyh]

I emailed what you wrote about vitamins to my husband.. will see what he says:)
grannyh

[celia]

Of course, there's no reason to take vitamins if you don't need them!!!! But how many people in our society have a nutritious diet? How many eat even a fraction of the vegetables and fruit they need to get the vitamins and antioxidents they need? I'm far more worried about all the side effects and damage of drugs that doctors prescribe than about vitamins. That really scares me. There's plenty of facts and figures on the number of annual deaths related to prescription drugs.

Less than 1/10th of 1% of the NIH research funding is spent on alternative medicine, and there's a lot of incomplete reporting on research information in the news. I think it will take more time before we have complete information about the effects of vitamins. Not to say that I don't find this information interesting!

I defnitely agree that there's no need to take vitamins if you have a healthy, toxin free diet.

Be well, Celia

[tex]

Celia,

It's no longer necessary to eat a balanced, nutritious diet, in order to get an RDA of certain vitamins and minerals. Many foods are "enriched" to the gills, these days.

Taking antioxidant supplements, confuses the messaging system that instructs the immune system to repair the damage caused by free radicals. The vitamins may get rid of the free redicals, but they won't repair the damage to the cells, and the immune system won't do it either, because the vitamins corrupt the message system. That's the basis of the risk with taking antioxidants.

Unless I'm overlooking something, taking vitamin supplements will not resolve any problems involving toxins in the diet.

Yes, meds are dangerous substances, that's why prescribing, formulating, and dispensing many of them requires a license. I would assume that every one of us is more concerned about the risks of prescription meds, than we are about vitamins, but that has nothing to do with the risks that taking supplemental vitamins imposes.

Many alternative medicine treatments are not without risk, also. In fact, anytime we do anything that deviates from the paleo lifestyle, we are trying to force our bodies to accept something that they were not designed to contend with, therefore, some degree of risk is to be expected. The best that we can hope to do is to try to minimize that risk.

I would guess that the reason that alternative medicine plays such a small part in the budget of NIH research funding, is not because no one is aware of it's potential, but because those in the alternative medicine industry don't throw money at research organizations, (and at polititians), the way that the "established" medical industry does. Research projects go where the money is, by default. That's unfortunate, but it's the way the system works. IOW, most medical research is paid for by the drug companies. That pretty well guarantees that most of the treatments involved in the research will involve prescription drugs--expensive prescription drugs, because they have to pay for all the research out of the profits from the drugs.

Someday, researchers will look back on this stage in human existance, and realize that we have only uncovered the tip of the iceberg, as far as our knowledgebase of health issues and medicine are concerned.

Tex

[Matthew]

In hopes of not adding fuel to the fire of any individuals personal opinions for or against vitamin supplements I submit a few of my own thoughts and questions.

I have no need for answers so ask them of yourself.

Quite often vitamins are recommended with no testing for their need . I really have to be skeptical. I might “guess’ as well as anyone else.

Often a proprietary brand is recommended at ten times the cost. What's with this. As I have mentioned before I question the quantitative and qualitative analysis of the supplements. Perhaps the placebo effect is greater at the greater cost.

Large amounts are prescribed. How much is just pissed away if absorbed at all. Particularly with our condition. Might not small amounts for a long period of time be just as effective.

Large amounts of one vitamin may throw off everything else. I have read over and over that if you are low on one B vitamin you are in need of them all but also see that that they a prescribed individually on a regular basis . Seems to me a perfect set up for creating even more imbalances.

What is really in them? I have had greater reactions from taking a supplement than I ever did from Gluten or Soy. My two biggest problems. Even though the label said “No Sugar, No Starch , No Artificial Colors, No Artificial Flavors, No Preservatives, No Corn, No Soy, No Yeast, No Wheat, No Grain, No Eggs or Milk Products” I had not doubt that twenty-four hours later I had big problem on my hands. Pun intended.

Laboring under the assumption that many of us have “Old Genes” I question that we would ever have taken on large amounts of one vitamin in the large doses in supplements. Is it possible or even probable that we can absorb them unless they are combined with the plethora of other micro nutrients.

Laboring under the assumption that many of us have at least some problems with leaky gut syndrome are large doses, or even small, absorbed in the same way that they might be in what ever a “normal” gut might absorb them or are they absorbed so fast and so incorrectly that they just make more problems.

I could go on and on. So many pluses, so many minuses

Supplements may or may not be of great benefit but are fraught with so many intangibles that it might be best to ask as many questions as I hope you would of any prescription drug.

To your continued recovery,

Matthew

P.S. You might well ask if I take them. Yes, on a very limited basis, a multi vitamin. It took a lot of questions and then questioning the answers to get to that point. I hope it may in some way cover,maybe, some of the bases.

In the mean time I thrive on eating as broad a spectrum of fresh vegetables, fruits, berries, seafood, lean meat, nuts, omega 3 oils and seeds as i can. Nothing like the true bounty of real food.

[kate_ce1995]

Vitamins is such a confusing topic, and i haven't read every word in this thread, but I picked up a book on Early Menopause (I think that's even the name of it) and it is very good on describing which are fat soluable and which are water soluable. The water soluable ones you do piss right out. The fat soluable stay with you longer. I have a bottle of vitamin B (complex), and that is a water soluable, so I take it when I feel I need it...like when my hands fall asleep a lot at night....it helps nerves.

Katy

[celia]

Fuel on the fire is great Matthew! It makes for a lively discussion. You make several good points - like the fact that vitamins are best absorbed in our food, in their natural mix.

I think the key to using vitamins, supplements, and any other substance is to use them intelligently. For example, I monitor my vitamin levels with blood tests and I research the efficacy of a treatment before I take it. The approach of my naturopath and my previous integrative medicine physician is to utilize vitamins and supplements for limited periods for the purpose of healing and restoring the body to a state where it's unnecessary to use them. They don't prescribe them indefinitely by any means, are well trained, and cautious.

Sure there is a lot of hype and marketing around vitamins. It's a big industry! One can waste a lot of money on vitamins.

What I object to, however, is a carte blanche against vitiamins when they can, used judiciously, promote healing, and help alleviate suffering or reduce it in many cases.

Tex, why would the vitamins in enriched products be any better than supplements? My niece has GERD at 17, and I am struck by the huge number of children, more than ever, that are obese. I have a hard time seeing any merit in eating enriched and, therefore, processed foods as a means of securing a balanced diet. As for toxins, some toxins displace vitamins and minerals in the body thus creating deficiencies in those substances. If people living in the Artic has toxic-loads in their bodies, I doubt any of us are escaping them.

I would love to see the research that definitively shows taking large amounts of anti-oxidants confuses the immune system. A great deal of immune research is still speculative. However, if this has been proven, I would love to know.

I agree with Matthew's general dietary approach as the best way to obtain the vitamins and minerals that ones needs. I'm really happy that the Paleo Diet works for many people in the forum, but can we be so certain that it's the only way that works? Have there been any long term research studies on the Paleo Diet to prove it's efficacy? The only longitudal study on diet that I know of is the China Study sponsered by Cornell and it weighs in on the side of vegetarianism for better, longer living. I am not a vegetarian and I am not trying to promote vegetarianism. I'm just trying to look at all the different research and make sense of it for myself.

Apologies if I am too passionate about the topic!

Best, Celia

[Momster]

When we were younger, the food was better. There weren't the additives that we now have and fruit and vegetables were grown without sprays and chemicals to make them grow faster. Animals weren't fed growth hormones so they could be brought to market faster.
I grew up in a city, so didn't have the benefit of growing and raising my own food, but the food we got from the farmer's market was healthy and we didn't take vitamins.
Now I do take some vitamin supplements. I take Vitamin C, but in a time release capsule so it isn't a huge does in the morning that does get pissed away. I also take vitamin D at my Dr's suggestion. Other than that, I discontinued Vitamin E, aslo at my Dr's suggestion, but take some minerals like Cal/Mag for my Osteo. I've definitely made it a point to research what I'm taking and why I need to. I find it very dangerous to go into a "health food" store. They can put the fear of God into a person and then tell them how to remedy it and it can be very costly.
I try to eat a balanced diet and am still working on counting calories to lose weight, which is also a prerequisite (sp) for my health.
John and I are looking into joining a fitness club, but looking for one where they can address my osteo problems because most exercises just put me into bed.
I'm going to read that article you talked about, Tex, and thanks for all the research and information you find for us.

Love - Momster

[tex]

Celia,

You seem to have missed my main point. I'm not campaiging against the legitimate uses of vitamins--I'm merely pointing out the risks of casually taking high doses of vitamins, in hopes of gaining some sort of health benefit.

Tex, why would the vitamins in enriched products be any better than supplements? My niece has GERD at 17, and I am struck by the huge number of children, more than ever, that are obese. I have a hard time seeing any merit in eating enriched and, therefore, processed foods as a means of securing a balanced diet.

Again, you missed my point. The vitamins in enriched products are NOT any better than supplements. The point is that we get so many doses of vitamins this way, that we never even think about, that we can easily get too much of a good thing, and it becomes a bad thing. My point is that we don't need certain vitamin supplements, if we are eating enriched foods.

And when I say "we", I mean all of us classified as homo sapiens, and not just you and myself, because you and I, (along with most people who will be reading this), have compromised digestive systems, so this may not even apply to us, but it applies to 99.9% of the people in what's referred to as the "developed countries" of this world.

Yes, some toxins may displace vitamins and minerals in the body thus creating deficiencies, but rather than to treat that problem with a long-term program of vitamin and mineral supplements, (other than a short-term remedial situation), it should be obvious that the proper course of treatment would be to stop ingesting the toxins. Contrary to the mantras of some who always see the sky as falling, all food in today's world is not a major toxic risk. If it were, our longevity as a species would not be in an uptrend. Our species, (like most others), has always ingested toxins, ever since the first humans ate a dirty antelope hind-quarter that they stole from a lion or hyena, but that's why we have immune systems.

Also, I don't believe that not taking enough vitamin supplements is a primary cause of childhood obesity, nor was it a likely cause for your niece's GERD, so I don't see how that is relevant to this discussion.

Sure, it is better to get the necessary vitamins and minerals from unmodified foods. We all realize that. The problem is that most of the most popular processed foods on the market these days, are enriched with vitamins that we do not need, (assuming that we eat a balanced diet), and we can't do anything about that. If we eat the food, we get the extra vitamins. If we take supplements to boot, then we wind up with an excess, which in some cases, can have adverse effects.

Research into the long-term use of antioxidant supplements is still in it's early stages, because for many years, virtually everyone just assumed that they were beneficial. The evidence that is just now beginning to surface, indicates that that the opposite is true. Read this article, which was published on March 15, 2006.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501471

Ok, now that I go back to check the validity of this link, the damn thing doesn't work without registration, so if it doesn't work for you, and you don't want to register, just forget it. The last reference I have cited below is more comprehensive, anyway.

This research described at the following link does not prove an adverse effect, but it does show the lack of a significant benefit from a vitamin antioxidant supplement, whereas the fruit juice worked admirably:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Here is an excellent article which covers much of the research which reveals antioxidant supplements to be pretty much a modern version of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Read it carefully--there's a lot of good information there:

http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromo ... dants.html

Since you cast aspersions on the paleo diet, in it's defense, I'd like to point out that it worked quite well for our species for at least two and a half million years, before the advent of agriculture, approximately 10 to 20 thousand years ago, at which point in time our digestive problems, and related health issues began to appear. Average height began to decline, and various health issues began to emerge, such that life expectancy actually declined, when the paleo diet segued into the neolithic diet. Quite a coincidence, wouldn't you say? Not only does this trump Cornell's "China Study", but two and a half million years of success, pretty well wins the blue ribbon for proving the validity of a diet, IMHO.

Never apologize about being passionate. Pasion is one of the things that make life truly interesting, and it inspires us to do and say things that we would never do and say, otherwise.

I do love these discussons.

Tex

P S Ok, I found a copy of the original article for you to read. The WSJ won't let you read this without a subscription, but here's a copy of the article in another publication that apparently has a lower mercenary motivation than the WSJ--kudos for them:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06079/673520.stm

[Polly]

Greetings All!

WOW! What an interesting and passionate thread! I have enjoyed reading it! Everyone makes some great points.

Basically, I am not against vitamins.....especially if one has been tested and found to have a vitamin deficiency, like B 12 for example. Also, I believe that a multivitamin is probably good for most people, since very few people actually eat a balanced, nutritious diet with enough fruits and veggies (5 a day is NOT enough!). I am a firm believer that the very best place to get your vitamins is from wholesome fresh food, and I doubt that anyone would disagree with this.

I do have a lot of questions, though - many of the same ones that have already been raised. I even question the RDAs, since these were often developed in a hit or miss fashion and therefore may lack medical validity in many cases. I also agree with something that Matthew has said in the past, which is that I do not totally trust the health info that is offered by someone who is actually SELLING a health product (whatever it be). And this includes PRESCRIPTION drugs from the drug companies, too, IMHO.

Wayne, you mentioned some good info about certain vitamins. I'm sure more will be forthcoming as further research is done. It is all SO confusing to try and figure out what is best for us, isn't it? The latest research on sunlight/vitamin D/melanoma is interesting, isn't it? It's known that exposure to harmful rays of the sun can lead to melanoma. But, the experts are now finding that those who have had melonoma have less chance of recurrence if they continue to expose themselves to sunlight. ??????

Anyway, thanks for getting my brain working early in the morning!

Love,

Polly

[celia]

Tex,

Maybe I did miss your main point, or maybe we can just agree to disagree. Your header didn't say anything about large does though...just that we don't need vitamins! Having different points of view makes for a rich discussion, and I don't think there needs to be one right view. As Polly says, there is so much conflicting information, it's difficult to discern what is valid, so we each have to come to our own conclusions.

When I studied statitstics in college we used a book called "How to Lie with Statistics." Research can easily be misrepresented by the mass media, and has been on more than one occassion---whether it's about vitamins or any thing else. So I am always a little wary.

I'm sure there is validity to your assertion that high doses of anti-oxidents can be counter-indicated in some situations. I will definitely read the research. I'm just not certain that it's always the case. I know you are sharing the information to be protective of us, and I appreciate that.

When it comes to *we homo spaiens* I don't buy that we all get all the nutrients we need each day. You are probably right that some people may get too much of certain vitamins from enriched products, and may not necessarily need to take more of those. But that doesn't mean that they have a nturient sound diet. Teenagers today, like my niece and obese kids, eat so many "anti-nutrients" that they can harm the intake of the good nutrients they do take in. I don't beleive that cheetos, fritos, and ruffles have been enriched yet, so no danger there! I think 'empty calories' means empty of nutrients.

I guess I am just one of those wild mantra reciters! If only we could get away from toxins! They are ubiquitous - in our food, water, soil, furniture, carpets, air, etc. Of course we can reduce them by eating organic food, etc., but the solution is not so simple. Sure eating food with toxins once or twice isn't going to harm you. Its' the cummulative effect after eating them for 20 or 30 years that is dangerous. Our immune systems and liver were not necessarily designed to cope with the new and huge level of exposure to toxins we face in the 21st century. That's the way I see it. I don't expect anyone else to agree, but I'm taking steps to protect myself.

I've read so many diet books--all with opposite points of view-- by now and they all have logical and scientific evidence to back them up. I'm not casting aspersions on the Paleo Diet. I just don't necessarily beleive it's the only answer for everyone. If it works for you great. I myself would like to beleive that as we have become more civilized that we could find a way to sustain ourselves without killing other living beings. However, even when one is a vegetarian, there are many beings killed in the process of cultivating plants (insects for example). Probably less, but it's impossible to escape this entirely.

I do agree with you, we have to proceed with caution. I just had my B12 and Folate checked and I'm on the high side. So I'm definitely stopping the vitamins for awhile. I will let you know after I read the research.

Thanks for sharing all the research with us. It is very stimulating and helpful! Celia

[tex]

Celia,

The reason why my title didn't fully reflect the main concepts involved with vitamins, is because

1. I was up against the character space limitation that the board software imposes for topics.

2. As you well know, "massaging" titles can encourage viewers to read articles or books, or whatever.

I could easily change the code to allow longer titles, but personally, I don't feel that long titles enhance the appeal to a viewer enough to justify the extra space and the extra reading involved. My opinion is that the title is there to attract readers, so it shouldn't have to be long and detailed. (But that's just my opinion). Ok, maybe my title bordered on sensationalism, but you gotta admit, it caught your eye. LOL.

You said:

Sure eating food with toxins once or twice isn't going to harm you. Its' the cummulative effect after eating them for 20 or 30 years that is dangerous. Our immune systems and liver were not necessarily designed to cope with the new and huge level of exposure to toxins we face in the 21st century. That's the way I see it. I don't expect anyone else to agree, but I'm taking steps to protect myself.

Well, hang on to your hat, but I couldn't agree with you more. We are indeed "flooding" our immune systems with regular doses of both "new" and "old" toxins, and yes, our immune systems and livers are obviously being overloaded, as evidenced by the escallating problems with allergies and other issues, today. There is nothing wrong with trying to minimize the ingestion of those toxins whenever possible.

Heck, many of us are still trying to deal with a couple of the gliadins, (in wheat gluten), that were introduced into our diets ten to twenty thousand years ago. It's no wonder that our systems are overwhelmed, considering all the "new" toxins that have been added in those ten or twenty thousand years, and especially those added in the last forty or fifty years.

A huge part of our immune system problems, however, seems to originate with our modern trend toward "excessive" sanitary practices, which preempts the proper development of our immune systems, when we are young. IOW, kids no longer play in the dirt, so their immune systems are not properly programmed the way they were designed to be. We reach maturity, with an unsophisticated immune system, and it can't properly handle the job. Our immune systems are wimps, compared with the immune systems of our grandparents.

I'm still trying to visualize a reason, (or reasons), why vitamins should be routinely taken as a buffer against toxins in our diet, but so far, I haven't been able to come up with any logical justifications--at least not for the general public.

Oh, and one other point--as a criticism of the paleo diet, you mentioned the vegetarianism issue:

I myself would like to beleive that as we have become more civilized that we could find a way to sustain ourselves without killing other living beings.

While I have absolutely no criticism of the vegetarian or vegan lifestyle, I'm puzzled by the fact that vegetarians have a problem with killing and eating, (other), animals in the food chain, but they don't have a problem with killing and eating plants. Biologically, I don't see a difference. All plants are living beings. They just happen to be nonambulatory. The most obvious difference is that plants are not "warm and fuzzy", with big brown eyes--IOW the manifestations of the "Bambi syndrome", for which Walt Disney planted the seeds in 1942. It's an arbitrary selection, based on appearances and perceptions.

Hey, thank you for all your informative input.

Tex