Doctor's reaction to Dr. Fine's tests

[cludwig]

Hi Polly and Karen,

I had two bouts of D this morning. I felt yucky most of yesterday ...body aches and nausia. Sunday was completely free of symptoms....so confusing.

Karen, I looked at my rice protein and it says: enzymatically processed rice protein from brown rice, contains no soy, milk, egg, yeast, corn, wheat, sugars or preservatives....GMO and gluten free. So maybe it's just that it's too much rice??

I got rid of the rice that had the soy lecthin.

Polly, I didn't know that about grains...I'll try to concentrate more on the potatoes as my starch.


There is still something other than gluten and my other allergens bothering me. SO, I'm going to guess and eliminate the coconut for a few days and see what happens....I did see a lot of it in my stools this morning....don't know if that means my body is having a hard time digesting it or not....That and increasing potatoes and decreasing some rice.

If this isn't it I'll try eliminating the cashew butter...then the flaxseed oil.

Thanks for the help ladies,

Cristi
,

[tex]

Cristi,

Concerning the rice protein: I looked up that product a day or so ago, when you first listed it. I couldn't make up my mind if it was safe or not, so I didn't pursue this, but since the issue has been raised again, here are my thoughts.

At issue is the phrase enzymatically processed I'm not 100% sure, but that could be a sneaky way of saying that it has been malted, because malting involves the use of enzymes to convert grain into special components. That is the process by which Rice Dream is created, for example, and for years Rice Dream did not include gluten on the label. I stopped using it, though, because it seemed to bother me, and sure enough, the label now shows a trace amount of gluten that is carried over from the malting process. If I recall correctly, it's something like two tenths or maybe two one-hundredths, of one percent gluten--a very tiny amount. Some people are affected by such small amounts, though.

Anyway, this could also be the case with rice protein. The manufacturers don't list gluten, because they don't realize that it can carry over from the malting process. The tricky part is that even though the product being malted is rice, barley is mixed in with the rice, in order to initiate the malting process, because barley contains the right combination of enzymes, so that it is the ideal medium to start a malting process. Barley, of course, contains gluten that is very similar to wheat gluten, and off limits for anyone who is gluten sensitive.

The bottom line is, anytime that you see a grain that is malted, no matter what it is, you can bet your boots that it contains at least trace amounts of gluten, from the barley used to initiate the malting processd, because the other grains don't contain enough of the right enzymes to fully convert their own starches. In case you're not familiar with the malting process, here's a brief description of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malt

Tex

[celia]

Cristi,

I think Wayne is on to something!

I have to say, I think your diet looks terrific. But, if you could limit yourself to fresh vegetables, meat, poultry, and fish, and fruit for awhile, it might give you the best results. I know that's hard, especially if you are already quite thin.

I think most people here are okay with rice and potatoes, but there are a few of us that have a problem with rice (Polly, Karen, Matthew, me and a few others.) I've never had a problem with D. like most of the folks on the forum, but I did get loose stools from eating rice. I was eating it quite a lot for awhile. You might try alternating - having rice one week and potatoes the next week and see how you do. Karen just reported on trying rice again on the diet and treatment thread, and even though she generally feels great now, she got D. in a matter of days.

I hope you don't have a problem with rice, but like Wayne says, we are all different.

All the best, Celia

[cludwig]

Hi Tex and Celia,

well...good grief! Okay the rice protein powder is out. I'm pretty sure I'm getting plenty of protein anyway.

So what do you think about my salt....ingredients: sea salt and magnesium oxide (anti-caking agent)? Is this safe?

I'm going to try to decrease regular rice and eliminate the protein powder and the coconut for a few days. If I don't improve I'll get rid of all rice. Hopefully this will help.

Thanks for your help,

Cristi

[artteacher]

I just wanted to give you more food for thought . . . sorry.

Coconut is REALLY high in sufites. Also any grain is suspect because to remove the hull from the kernel may involve sulfites, it's a whitener to bleach the flour, and it may be added to the flour as a preservative.

So this is another possibility . . I'm repeating myself, but if you have problems with bottled lemon juice, margerita mix, marachino cherries, potato flour or frozen potatoes, sulfa drugs, frozen shrimp or frozen fish, you should suspect sulfites.

Love, Marsha

[celia]

I used sea salt for a long time without problems. I bought celtic sea salt in bulk from the health food store, so I have no clue about the magnesium oxide.

I reacted to coconut myself, but not with D. For awhile I thought it was the sulfites, that's a good option to check out. But in the end, I don't think it was a sulfite problem.

I hope we are not driving you crazy, Cristi! I think you are doing really great.

Hugs, Celia

[tex]

Cristi,

Since magnesium is important for many systems in the body, especially the muscles and nerves, magnesium oxide is sometimes used as a supplement to maintain adequate magnesium in the body. It's a natural product, and I don't believe it's likely to cause any problems for you. The only situation where taking it might be risky would be if you had kidney disease.

If you want to avoid it, some of us, especially those inclined toward the paleo diet, use a product called Real Salt, which is sea salt without any anti-caking agent, or other additives, though it does contain a lot of naturally occurring minerals, of course. I get it at my local health food store. It comes in collapsible plastic pouches, (to keep the air out), with a pouring valve. I'm sure that this is similar to what Celia mentioned, except it is conveniently packaged.

Tex

[cludwig]

HI Everyone,

Thanks for all the info.

I had a large volume of puffy poop this morning. I didn't eat any rice or rice protein or coconut today. Today I just felt different...like an out of body kind of feeling..slightly achey and dizzy. But I was less bloated feeling. So I guess time will tell.

I wanted to follow up on something you brought up Marsha. I am allergic to sulfa drugs....so is that related to sulfites? If they are related then I'm sure I would have problems with sulfites. How do I know if sulfites are used....will it be listed on the label? Are sulfites in fresh coconuts or just in the bagged kind? So fresh fish and shrimp should be okay?

Thank you soooo much,
Cristi

[celia]

Marsha is the resident expert on sulfites so she can best answer your question.

But I did go through a period when I was working with my first conventional nutritionist where she suggested I have sulfite intolerance, so I looked into it a lot. Here is a terrific website on sulfites you can check out, if Marsha confirms the link between sulfa drugs and sulfites...I'm don't know about that myself.

members.aol.com/nosulfites/

My nutritionist said that most of the fish you get at the supermarket will have sulfites...Marsha can tell you more about that. I always buy my fish at www.vitalchoice.com where I know it's not preserved with sulfites or at my health food store.

All the best, Celia

[cludwig]

HI Everyone,

My first bm was a small amount of small hard stools. Then the others were large amounts complelely unformed. So discouraging. Still feeling low energy and foggy.....but I do have less bloating and nausia. So I'll continue eliminating rice , coconut,and protein powder.

I'm now eating for breakfast

banana, blueberry cashew butter and flaxseed oil smoothie

snack..1/2 peeled apple withcashew butter

lunch...cod, mashed potatoes with olive oil,stock and chives, asparagus,carrots and apple sause

snack...1/2 apple with cashew butter

dinner...two chicken thighs, mashed potatoes, asparagus and carrots, apple sause


snack..banana blueberries cshew butter and flax oil smoothie


So, I guess I'll continue with this and hope and pray.


thanks,
Cristi

[cludwig]

Still having major D.....which has never in 6 mos. happened before. I always had all my D between 6 and 11 am. I had it all morning as usual then all afternoon as well. Is it normal to have increased D when you change your diet...Does it mean I'm doing somthing wrong and should stop....or stick with the change for a longer time...

How in the world did you guys get through this....it feels like it will never end.
I'm feeling a lot of self pity today.

Cristi

[thedell19]

Cristi-

I think you might be eating too many raw fruits. In the begining healing stage I would recommend you eating cooked fruits and veggies and ones that are not high in fiber.

WIth mashed potato is there any milk in there? I think you might be casien intolerant but I cant remember.

Since you can handle potato... how about getting some potato flour and make potato banana rice muffins. I use the bananas when they are very ripe so that the fiber is broken down. They are very tasty, if you want I can give you the recipe. I use rice flour though.

Do you think you have a problem with rice? Are you sure you are getting the rice that is gluten free? Not all rice is gluten free. I bought a rice cooker and use chinese and japanese rice.

[tex]

Cristi,

The extra D probably is a sign that something is wrong. Didn't you just recently add the applesauce, or did I just overlook it in your previous diet listings.

The reason I ask is because some applesauce is "natural", and some has additives, such as high fructose corn syrop. I don't remember if you are corn intolerant or not, but I assume you are avoiding it, since I don't see it in your diet, otherwise. Anyway, that possibility comes to mind.

If you will list your known, (or suspected), intolerances, in your profile, then they will show up to the left of your posts, so that it will be much easier for anyone to critique your diet listings.

As Andrew mentioned, the apples, (and possibly even bananas), could be a problem, until your gut heals. For at least a couple of years, I didn't eat any raw fruit or vegetables, because they irritated my gut. Everyone is different, however, and some can tolerate things like that much better than others.

Tex

[Lucy]

Hi there,

Haven't heard this among any of our group, but my sister has always had a violent pain in the gut with diarrhea a few hours after eating any green onions.

Since she's discovered her delayed food reactions, and now doesn't eat those, she can do pretty well by just removing the pieces of green onion, if possible, from the dish, and continue to eat the food with no apparent diarrhea or pain.

I think she thinks that she's now less sensitive to whatever it is in ONLY this type of onion, that she would formerly react to before gf, even if the pieces were removed after cooking at that time. Techically, we think that this would be called a "food INTOLERANCE," but who knows.

This all goes along with what the guy they call the father of environmental medicine told us at the conference we attended -- if anyone had more than five or six delayed food allergens, then they would always have chemical allergens. I think this is kind of illustrative, in a way. Fine line between the two anyway, I guess at this point.

Anyway, you might want to switch to another type of onion. Dunno about mashed potatoes with 'em, but we like to slice the sweet red onions very thin, and put lots of 'em on salads, but perhaps you should go more for the cooked veggies for now. You could use most any kind of onion with those if you like onions and the whole family of 'em doesn't bother you.

Just thought I'd throw that out since you'd eaten those at lunch time the day before your bad afternoon which you don't usually have.

Also, I think it's a positive sign if you had the little formed stools first thing. That shows that for a while, something right was happening. I found the process to be back and forth, back and forth.

Remember, Karen, when I kept telling every newbie over at the old site that it was always two steps forward, one step backwards, etc.?

Besides all the raw stuff, I notice that you depend pretty heavily on fruits in the fruits and veggie category. Also, when I make my smoothies with the nut butters, I attempt to get the solids rather than the oil on top. My original intent was to use those oils in place of bottled oils for other purposes, but I've not instituted that plan as yet.

Be patient. This too shall pass. It sounds like a VERY good sign that you feel lots better. Remember, the fatigue will be with you for a while, so try to pace yourself as you heal. I guess most people would say that I STILL have the fog! Ha! Actually, many celiacs and other pwgs say that the foggy head feeling lifts fairly rapidly once gf.

What I think is important to remember here is that any neuro damage can take an awful long time to heal compared to other tissues, if in fact some of the damage will heal completely. I have yet to see anything in print convincing me that all of it is reversible like the other organ systems seem to be.
Improvement in nourishment absorption can sure help with some neuro signs, that's for sure! Thus my supplements!

Just be systematic and keep notes to remember what you eat each day and the time of those foods along with the times of specific symptoms, and you'll eventually notice definite trends.

You are on such an unprocessed diet already, that that should make it a bit easier to manipulate the diet for the purpose of discovering what bothers you, if anything.

Don't rule out the possibility that your gut could just use a little more time to heal.

Yours, Luce

[celia]

Cristi,

I'm so sorry your D. is getting worse. Of course you feel sorry for your self. That's only normal.

My nutritionist recommends staying away from all grains, soy, legumes, dairy products, gluten (of course) to anyone with autoimmune problems while they are trying to heal. She wrote the book Going Against the Grain so she is quite experienced with gluten intolerance. If you feel it would help to have the support of a cutting edge nutritionist, she gives phone appointments to people all over the U. S. Her name is Melissa Diane Smith. Just google her and your will find her website.

My suggestons may not be relevant since major D. was never a problem for me. However, I did have immune reactions and consequent symptoms to ---

grains
legumes
nuts, especially cashews which are a legume not a nut
potatoes and starchy vegetables like carrots and peas
onions, garlic, and bananas (which all have inulin, a hard to digest starch)---that's why its best to eat very ripe bananas, not unripe ones)
flax seeds
all fruit

Hopefully, you are not reacting to all these differnt things! But there are somethings in your diet that may be problematic, like the cashew butter, fruit, etc. There is information on how to do an elimination diet on the Information on Diet thread. Maybe you want to read that and see how might be able to simplify your diet further for a short time, like a week, and then slowly add things back. That might help you identify the culprits. I only ate meat, poultry, fish, and low starch vegetables for a long time.

I know it must be a little overwhelming to be getting all this different feedback. So just consider it and see if it might fit.

You are in my prayers! Celia