Calling food producers about ingredients . .

[MarkNewman]

Hello all. First, I'd like to point out, that we're all genetic losers in some way or another. Nothing is perfect. We all know that.

Regarding the questions on Flavors: There are so many things that are done to flavors, that if you do have a specific question about them, please call the manufacturer of the product. More times than not, you will get the answer you seek. Only about 1 in 10,000 customers actually makes a customer inquiry, and only 1 in 60 will call a 1-800 line when they have a complaint or a problem with the product. Most companies like to keep their customers too, so they will usually send you a certificate for a replacement item, and may ask to have the problematic product sent back to them.
Too many technologists like myself never truly communicate with our customers. Conversations or communications with real customers, rather than panels does give us things to think about.
The basic difference between Natural and Artificial Flavor is that "Natural" is defined by processing a raw material in a fashion that someone could do it at home. Artificial is usually defined as either coming from Petroleum derivatives, or is processed in fairly extreme measures. There is an entire section of the Code of Federal Regulations dedicated to this. Europe has a third set of flavor designators called "Nature Identical"--flavors that are chemically identical to what is found in Natural Flavors, but are made by Artificial means. It's hard to explain without writing 14 paragraphs of technical writing.
Flavors typically only make up less than 1% of a product. Flavors are also typically diluted in carriers, or as we call them solvents. These are typically ethanol, propylene glycol, triacetin and glycerol. Ultimately, the molecules that are responsible for the pleasant aroma of your food are in Parts Per Million levels. If you drank an 8 oz glass of the actual component responsible for a particular flavor, yes, it probably has a high toxicity level. Most of them are flammable as well. If we have leftover flavors that are expired, I'll use them to start my grill at home instead of using Charcoal Starter. It smells much better!
Now, looking through the list of allergies that affect the people in this group, it is actually quite the horror list for someone like me who formulates products. One of the people who commented was even allergic to Rice Protein. It was my understanding that rice is hypoallergenic, but anything is possible.
The biggest problem the food industry has is that there isn't enough money to be made in making a unique product for these people. We launched a brand of Gluten-Free veggieburgers, but, they are being discontinued for several reasons. Not enough distribution. We would produce the "minimum" amount that our co-packer would allow us, and most of it wouldn't sell in a year. That is one of the biggest problems with these unique products with small categories---there isn't enough buying power from the individuals to make it worth it for most companies to produce it. You're paying for a couple of salespeople, distribution, broker's fees, profit, packaging, and the ingredients themselves--and in some cases, marketing. By the time most products get to the shelves, they cost a lot of money. And these are the Healthy products. Products that we genuinely wanted to provide to people that are good for people. At some point, someone usually say "Too Expensive", and that's what limits a lot of products from coming to market.
Think of this from another angle: You pay $0.59 for a can of soup. You pay $0.89 for a can of "spaghetti and meatballs"---the list could go on and on. Read the Ingredient Statement. How many of those ingredients do you have in your house? They reduce cost. You pay less.
They are also for the most part "filler" and "function", not nutrition.

Inflation is for, well, people with Economics degrees. The sun came up yesterday, it came up today, why does this cost more? You tell me. I'm not getting charged for the sun coming up. At least I don't think I'm getting a bill for that. Inflation is the product of greed. When I went to school I wanted to learn about chemistry and food. I also worked at a University for several years doing Basic Research in food. People that do Basic Research are curious people. They want answers. Professors, students, former students, and anyone that is curious are the people we can thank for anything. Now, when I got into the "Real World", working for a Publicly owned company, you realize that nobody cares about the answers EXCEPT the R&D team, and everyone else wants "IT" now, and they want the money for "IT".

My best advice to everyone in this category who has problems with food items, is to speak up. I know it sounds trivial, and like trying to get people to vote. But, ideas are ideas, and there's always someone who will act on an idea. If you have a tremendous recipe for "non-dairy, non-rice, non-anything", and it tastes great, send it to formats like this Forum, share it with others. Hopefully you can help others with similar problems. Perhaps, some food technoligist will see the recipe, cook it up in the lab, and get someone above him to put it in a box and ship it off to a grocery store near you.
If you are so inspired that you think that you should start your own company, learn more about venture capitialism, business ownership and learn patience.
Learn to cook! You can't rely on others to feed you the right stuff when you pull through the Drive-Thru, or the teenager who prepared it. If you find something at a restaurant that you like, ask for the recipe. Explain your situation, start a conversation, and they'll probably give you the recipe. I've done many times. I also tell them I won't compete against them. I just want to have it at home. I'm a Flavor Chemist. I'm dangerous. By simply tasting something and knowing the ingredients, I can copy just about anything in a couple of hours. There's nothing more enjoyable than cooking something that I've only had at a restaurant in Steamboat Springs, or San Diego, or New York at my house. I've also signed so many Confidentiality Agreements that "the man", aka, my friends who went through Law School, can bully me around. The more a person learns, the more they wish the DIDN'T know. I'm sure everyone here can attest to that.

I am truly surprised by how many people simply eat to eat. It's the genetic loser in me. Then again, since I am a genetic loser, and I'm only going to be here for 73.6 to 100 years, I need to enjoy the moment. 10 hours of my day is spent working for you shareholders. I get a couple hours to goof off, and then I need to sleep, get up, and do it again. We all do it. I don't know about you folks, but I hate crappy food. And when I say crappy, I mean bad tasting food. I run and rollerblade with my Siberian Husky dog enough that I burn a couple calories so that she doesn't chew the house apart.

To answer the question of why I can't eat Dairy: I am not lactose intolertant, I do not have immunoglobulin problems, but rather, my kidneys like to precipitate calcium for me and create kidney stones.

As to how I came to this group, I was researching food allergens for my job, and came across my own name in a discussion group, one that I had not joined myself, and saw the e-mail that I had sent to Marsha/Mr. Brown, and got a little peeved. I guess that's the day and age. I had tried to genuinely help this person, and I was mocked. I don't mind being mocked to my face, because usually, it is funny, true, and entertaining for all, but to mislead my answer seems like a cheap shot. I also am strongly for the First Ammendment. If you want to have an insult contest, that's fine. If you want to make prank phone calls to entertain yourself, that's fine too. But, when I'm at work, I have to be serious and professional, and most importantly, help people.

If any of you have any questions regarding food, feel free to contact me at my e-mail address. I will try to answer your questions, and if I don't know the answer, I will certainly try to find someone who can. No question should go unanswered.

I also learned something---I will not inject my personal brand of humor into communication with someone I don't know.

That's just common sense, right?

duh

or is that how you get to know people?

oh, the paradoxes that exist.......

Mark

[Mars]

Hi Mark,

I am truly sorry you were peeved and felt mocked in our responses to your letter to \"Mr. Brown\". You must understand that in your line of work, you receive strange questions or dumb questions from callers/emailers. Well, in our experience, we usually get responses that are so full of double talk and \"big words\" and a total lack of answering the question posed, that your response actually was full of entertainment along with educational information. We potty people tend to get our amusement wherever/whenever we can! Your letter WAS entertaining and \"out of the norm\" for a response, don't you agree? I personally enjoyed it!

I hope you read Polly's response to you earlier in the post. Education is something we continue by conversing with others. Perhaps you would be able to carry what you learn here back to your profession and further educate those in the food business about what some of the population has to deal with on a daily basis. Perhaps we can learn from you. That's what this forum was created for~~ to learn from each other and help us reach a level of health that we are able to live with. Each one of us brings to the table their experience and education and we learn from each other.

I hope you are able to join us in the search for that \"comfort\" level in our lives.

Margie

[Jean]

Mark,

Thanks so much for your response! I've learn a lot from you already.

You said: \"Flavors typically only make up less than 1% of a product. Flavors are also typically diluted in carriers, or as we call them solvents. These are typically ethanol, propylene glycol, triacetin and glycerol. Ultimately, the molecules that are responsible for the pleasant aroma of your food are in Parts Per Million levels.\"

I (we) do react to parts per million (and it sucks). I know that ethanol is OK because it's distilled and that removes the protein molecules that we react to. I've avoided the other three because they can be made from one of our allergens. Do you have any insight on how these are made? We have to avoid any product that has flavors in it because there's not enough information to tell us what's in it. I have tried a few things that have natural flavors, but it's a crap shoot (literally) every time.

I completely understand that a specialty item is too expensive to produce for a small segment like us. I just wish that food manufactures would leave out a few things so we could eat them, but I don't want to put you out of the job LOL.

None of us eat processed foods, we just can't. But we miss the luxury of heat and serve. We have all gone back to cooking everyday and I for one get tired of it. I can't even find a tomato juice without citric acid (corn derivative).

Most medications are off limits to us because of the inactive ingredients. No Tums or pain killers for us!

Thanks again for coming here.

Jean

[starfire]

Mark,
I am truly sorry that you felt the way you did. I don't believe I responded in the thread but I wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading your e-mail message. In fact, I think you are a very good writer. And, I'm sure we could learn a lot from you..............and vice-versa.

I'm hoping you will stick around.

Shirley

[celia]

Mark, so sorry if any of our words were hurtful to you! My sense is that people really appreciated your response.

You are right, rice is the most hypoallergenic of foods but it is not 100%. It is unusual to react to rice, but some of us on the forum do.

Thanks very much for all the information. It's extremely interesting.

All the best, Celia

[artteacher]

Dear Mark,

I beg your forgiveness. Just three things, if you're willing to give me a second chance:

1. I shared your response, because I honestly wanted friends here to see how someone took the time to answer intelligently and with wit. I LOVE your sense of humor. (and if I was as quick as you I might have caught 100% of it, as it appears I missed some). I've contacted doctors, and food manufacturors, and so often been treated dismissively. I can't tell you how discouraging it is. Twelve years ago I developed lupus and colitis at the same time, and only through my own stubbornness asking questions and educating myself, have I gotton better. You were one person in 50 (this is a thoughtful guesstimate) who took time to answer what could have been a really dumb question, and am very grateful.

2. I hope you stay in contact with us. Microscopic colitis is an uncommon & misdiagnosed illness. We have people on this site from all professions and backgrounds: teachers, doctors, homemakers, ag-science, you name it, supporting each other through the remission of symptoms.

3. I still drink MoonRose soymilk. It's still the only soy product I can tolerate. I buy it by the case from Nordstroms CoffeeBars in Phoenix and Spokane because no retail stores carry it. I also remind people here on a regular basis that I can use it even though in every other way I'm intolerant of soy.
Based on your letter to me, I think MR might be different from other soymilks because of a lower sulfite content (because you use evaporated cane sugar), or because it's an ungenetically modified type of soy, giving it a lower lectin content. Or that the organic nature of your pesticides and fertilizers give it a nongluten or lowsulfite state. Or maybe the love that goes into each box.

When it comes down to it, without the help of a qualified person with a knowledge base in that field, there is no way for a layperson like myself to make sense of it, and it becomes trial and error at every single meal. As you can imagine, it's not fun to fear food.

If I could send you chocolates and roses, I would. You are one of the last people I'd want to offend. Thank you again for taking the time to answer my email.

Sincerely,
Marsha Bown

[MarkNewman]

Marsha, all is forgiven. Contact me and I'll send you a case of soy.

Only about 5-10 times a year do I actually get an e-mail or a phone call from a customer directed to me. That's a good thing, because it means we aren't getting too many complaints, but it does give me an opportunity to talk to a customer. You have no idea that this drives Product Developers nuts. We see hundreds and thousands and millions of these boxes go out the doors, and you never truly know what people think. No news is good news right? Sure, but once in a while, we would like to get some feedback on what we can do better.

I'm glad that our soymilk puts you at ease.

Mark

[Sally]

Mark, I LOVE your letters!!!! Your first one had me rolling on the floor laughing so hard I had snot coming out my nose. Marsha is so lucky to get a response like that to a question. They are also full of good solid information that we all can use. The thing that set me off was "first we start with the beans..." I lost it after that and had to go back and read it again.

Thanks for making our day. You are one special Director of R & D, Flavor Chemist.

Sally