So I have been taking VSl#3 for about 1 year now. I checked earlier and made sure it was GFCF before I started my diet. Well today I just read this... that says that casien may be in trace amounts, much like culturelle- Dr Fine says culturelle is okay even though it does have casien... Doesnt that go against his whole theory that even though you dont have a high positive score doesnt mean you are less intolerant.
So now I think I am going to cut VSl out and try iFlora or Flora-Q both of which I believe are GFCF.
Here is what I read today about VSL#3
http://www.orphan.com.au/pdfs/VSLDL6p.p ... 3%20gluten'
here is a link to iFlora
http://www.sunrisewd.com/products/flora_source.html
Flora-q:
http://www.floraq.com/
Ok something else I need advice on
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Ok something else I need advice on
Dr Fine test shows positive for gluten and casien but negative for soy, eggs, and yeast
Maybe its UC maybe its MC? Who knows at this point, but at least I know my intollerances now... so heres to the road to healing!
Maybe its UC maybe its MC? Who knows at this point, but at least I know my intollerances now... so heres to the road to healing!
Andrew,
For some reason or other, I can't get your VSL#3 link to work, even if I paste that whole line into my browser.
Are you possibly confusing lactose with casein? If my memory is correct, Culturelle contains lactose, not casein. That's why Dr. Fine half-heartedly endorses it.
Lactose is a complex sugar, not a protein. If complex sugars are not properly split during the digestive process, they will tend to ferment in the colon, rather than being broken down into simple sugars and absorbed in the small intestine. This causes some problems with gas and bloating, but it's a problem of incomplete digestion, or indigestability, rather than something that will trigger an autoimmune response. IOW, it should not cause any inflammation in the colon.
Tex
For some reason or other, I can't get your VSL#3 link to work, even if I paste that whole line into my browser.
Are you possibly confusing lactose with casein? If my memory is correct, Culturelle contains lactose, not casein. That's why Dr. Fine half-heartedly endorses it.
Lactose is a complex sugar, not a protein. If complex sugars are not properly split during the digestive process, they will tend to ferment in the colon, rather than being broken down into simple sugars and absorbed in the small intestine. This causes some problems with gas and bloating, but it's a problem of incomplete digestion, or indigestability, rather than something that will trigger an autoimmune response. IOW, it should not cause any inflammation in the colon.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Isn't what ferments the complex sugars bacteria? Can't the bacteria cause inflamation? Can't the chemicals that the bacteria produce when digesting cause inflamation? I ask because I don't know.tex wrote:Andrew,
For some reason or other, I can't get your VSL#3 link to work, even if I paste that whole line into my browser.
Are you possibly confusing lactose with casein? If my memory is correct, Culturelle contains lactose, not casein. That's why Dr. Fine half-heartedly endorses it.
Lactose is a complex sugar, not a protein. If complex sugars are not properly split during the digestive process, they will tend to ferment in the colon, rather than being broken down into simple sugars and absorbed in the small intestine. This causes some problems with gas and bloating, but it's a problem of incomplete digestion, or indigestability, rather than something that will trigger an autoimmune response. IOW, it should not cause any inflammation in the colon.
Tex
Also, since bacteria is made of protein (I think), couldn't the bodies reaction to the bacteria cause an immune response? Seems that in some of our cases the immune response is to the response to gluten proteins. Again just wondering.
Mike,
Yes, normally the fermentation is accomplished by residual bacteria in the colon, but this shouldn't cause inflammation, because the bacteria involved are part of the normal ecosystem. "Good" bacteria don't produce toxic chemicals, in contrast to "bad" bacteria that do, (such as H. pylori, C. diff, E. coli, etc.)
The sugar is converted to hydrogen gas and organic acids. Organic acids can be absorbed of course, but the quantity produced is rarely large enough to cause problems, and they shouldn't normally cause any inflammation.
These bacteria should always be present in virtually everyone's colon, because anytime someone experiences enteritis, (due to a virus, or whatever), lactase production is suppressed, and so the fermentation process is the default backup process that the body uses to break down lactose. IOW, it's a "normal" event, even though it is uncomfortable, due to the gas. It's "normal", in the sense that it's the body's normal response to a tramatic event, (lactase deficiency due to enteritis), and it's normally a transient event, since lactase production normally resumes once the enteritis passes, (except, of course, for people who are chronically lactose intolerant due to other issues.)
Tex
Yes, normally the fermentation is accomplished by residual bacteria in the colon, but this shouldn't cause inflammation, because the bacteria involved are part of the normal ecosystem. "Good" bacteria don't produce toxic chemicals, in contrast to "bad" bacteria that do, (such as H. pylori, C. diff, E. coli, etc.)
The sugar is converted to hydrogen gas and organic acids. Organic acids can be absorbed of course, but the quantity produced is rarely large enough to cause problems, and they shouldn't normally cause any inflammation.
These bacteria should always be present in virtually everyone's colon, because anytime someone experiences enteritis, (due to a virus, or whatever), lactase production is suppressed, and so the fermentation process is the default backup process that the body uses to break down lactose. IOW, it's a "normal" event, even though it is uncomfortable, due to the gas. It's "normal", in the sense that it's the body's normal response to a tramatic event, (lactase deficiency due to enteritis), and it's normally a transient event, since lactase production normally resumes once the enteritis passes, (except, of course, for people who are chronically lactose intolerant due to other issues.)
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
A couple of thoughts. Even though there is good bacteria, I can with pretty high certainty predict that you also have bad bacteria present. In what amount is uncertain, but give it enough food "undigested sugars" and it's certain to grow, antibiotics or other medicines can also contribute to the numbers of bad.tex wrote:Mike,
Yes, normally the fermentation is accomplished by residual bacteria in the colon, but this shouldn't cause inflammation, because the bacteria involved are part of the normal ecosystem. "Good" bacteria don't produce toxic chemicals, in contrast to "bad" bacteria that do, (such as H. pylori, C. diff, E. coli, etc.)
The sugar is converted to hydrogen gas and organic acids. Organic acids can be absorbed of course, but the quantity produced is rarely large enough to cause problems, and they shouldn't normally cause any inflammation.
These bacteria should always be present in virtually everyone's colon, because anytime someone experiences enteritis, (due to a virus, or whatever), lactase production is suppressed, and so the fermentation process is the default backup process that the body uses to break down lactose. IOW, it's a "normal" event, even though it is uncomfortable, due to the gas. It's "normal", in the sense that it's the body's normal response to a tramatic event, (lactase deficiency due to enteritis), and it's normally a transient event, since lactase production normally resumes once the enteritis passes, (except, of course, for people who are chronically lactose intolerant due to other issues.)
Tex
Also, how "normal" are our digestive systems anyway? Mine seems pretty abnormal at this point. ;) Perhaps even the good bacteria get targeted as bad under certain condidtions. For example the whole autoimmune issue, it's good cells being seen as bad.
I certainly don't know the answers, but it is interesting to discuss and think about. :)
Mike
Right. Not one of us has a normal digestive system. That's the main reason why we're here. However, the fact that most of us can find a diet that allows us to restore our digestive systems to a state where they will provide "black box" operation equivalent to a normal system, (without medical intervention), suggests that the basic system is sound, and only certain parts need fine tuning.
"Normal" Americans have about 85% "bad" bacteria, and about 15% "good" bacteria in their guts. That's probably true for most of us, here, also. I have no doubt that if I went to one of the "Chiropractors" or Naturopaths who specialize in purging the body of toxins, and "bad" bacteria, they would advise me that my body is loaded with toxins and "bad" bacteria that will have to go, if I am to avoid all kinds of dire consequences. I will agree that I am loaded with germs and all sorts of "bad stuff", but I question their claim that dire consequences are inevitable.
I could be all wet, but personally I believe that the claim that our immune systems attack our "good bacteria" is an obsolete theory that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. If that were true, in the case of MC, for example, avoiding our intolerances wouldn't stop the symptoms. (See some of my past posts about the "virus theory", if you want more details. Most of those posts are probably in the Discussions on Treatment Options forum).
It's certainly possible that some of us could have a bacteria problem. For example, if the "good" bacteria in your colon, somehow manage to become established above the ileocecal valve, and populate the small intestine, then they have suddenly become "bad" bacteria, and it's certainly possible that your immune system might try to evict them. Any of us are susceptable to various strep germs, E. coli, C. diff, or any of a host of "bad" bacteria, just the same as the general population, but that is a seperate problem from MC.
If you suspect that you have a bacterial overgrowth problem, a course of the proper antibiotics to clear it up, might be worth a try. Then you just have to be careful that you repopulate your gut with the right type of bacteria, after the treatment. I'm not recommending that treatment, I'm just saying that it's an option.
Tex
"Normal" Americans have about 85% "bad" bacteria, and about 15% "good" bacteria in their guts. That's probably true for most of us, here, also. I have no doubt that if I went to one of the "Chiropractors" or Naturopaths who specialize in purging the body of toxins, and "bad" bacteria, they would advise me that my body is loaded with toxins and "bad" bacteria that will have to go, if I am to avoid all kinds of dire consequences. I will agree that I am loaded with germs and all sorts of "bad stuff", but I question their claim that dire consequences are inevitable.
I could be all wet, but personally I believe that the claim that our immune systems attack our "good bacteria" is an obsolete theory that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. If that were true, in the case of MC, for example, avoiding our intolerances wouldn't stop the symptoms. (See some of my past posts about the "virus theory", if you want more details. Most of those posts are probably in the Discussions on Treatment Options forum).
It's certainly possible that some of us could have a bacteria problem. For example, if the "good" bacteria in your colon, somehow manage to become established above the ileocecal valve, and populate the small intestine, then they have suddenly become "bad" bacteria, and it's certainly possible that your immune system might try to evict them. Any of us are susceptable to various strep germs, E. coli, C. diff, or any of a host of "bad" bacteria, just the same as the general population, but that is a seperate problem from MC.
If you suspect that you have a bacterial overgrowth problem, a course of the proper antibiotics to clear it up, might be worth a try. Then you just have to be careful that you repopulate your gut with the right type of bacteria, after the treatment. I'm not recommending that treatment, I'm just saying that it's an option.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Mike,
Don't forget that Culturelle is the only probiotic that has been proven useful by a double blind scientic study. As you know, it doesn't mean that some or most of the others are just as good, just that they've not been scientifically demonstrated useful in this way.
I buy the "Milk Free" brand in the refrigerated supplement section at Whole Foods. Matter of fact, the company's headquarters are just down the highway from me in SugarLand.
To tell you the truth, I rarely take these, but will occasionally give my mother one after she's taken an antibiotic as prevention.
By the way, the beneficial bacteria in the gut are responsible for making some of your vitamins the natural way. That just might be a reason for some of the vit deficiencies so many of us had before our guts healed, or at least healed enough to make us assymptomic.
Yours, Luce
Don't forget that Culturelle is the only probiotic that has been proven useful by a double blind scientic study. As you know, it doesn't mean that some or most of the others are just as good, just that they've not been scientifically demonstrated useful in this way.
I buy the "Milk Free" brand in the refrigerated supplement section at Whole Foods. Matter of fact, the company's headquarters are just down the highway from me in SugarLand.
To tell you the truth, I rarely take these, but will occasionally give my mother one after she's taken an antibiotic as prevention.
By the way, the beneficial bacteria in the gut are responsible for making some of your vitamins the natural way. That just might be a reason for some of the vit deficiencies so many of us had before our guts healed, or at least healed enough to make us assymptomic.
Yours, Luce
Wow, didn't realize that the bad bacteria would be that much. Where did you find that info? I'd like to read more.tex wrote:Right. Not one of us has a normal digestive system. That's the main reason why we're here. However, the fact that most of us can find a diet that allows us to restore our digestive systems to a state where they will provide "black box" operation equivalent to a normal system, (without medical intervention), suggests that the basic system is sound, and only certain parts need fine tuning.
"Normal" Americans have about 85% "bad" bacteria, and about 15% "good" bacteria in their guts. That's probably true for most of us, here, also. I have no doubt that if I went to one of the "Chiropractors" or Naturopaths who specialize in purging the body of toxins, and "bad" bacteria, they would advise me that my body is loaded with toxins and "bad" bacteria that will have to go, if I am to avoid all kinds of dire consequences. I will agree that I am loaded with germs and all sorts of "bad stuff", but I question their claim that dire consequences are inevitable.
I could be all wet, but personally I believe that the claim that our immune systems attack our "good bacteria" is an obsolete theory that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. If that were true, in the case of MC, for example, avoiding our intolerances wouldn't stop the symptoms. (See some of my past posts about the "virus theory", if you want more details. Most of those posts are probably in the Discussions on Treatment Options forum).
It's certainly possible that some of us could have a bacteria problem. For example, if the "good" bacteria in your colon, somehow manage to become established above the ileocecal valve, and populate the small intestine, then they have suddenly become "bad" bacteria, and it's certainly possible that your immune system might try to evict them. Any of us are susceptable to various strep germs, E. coli, C. diff, or any of a host of "bad" bacteria, just the same as the general population, but that is a seperate problem from MC.
If you suspect that you have a bacterial overgrowth problem, a course of the proper antibiotics to clear it up, might be worth a try. Then you just have to be careful that you repopulate your gut with the right type of bacteria, after the treatment. I'm not recommending that treatment, I'm just saying that it's an option.
Tex
I'm starting to lean towards the virus being suspect more after reading dogtorJ's website. Though it seems to throw a wrench into the genetic and food "allergy" aspects.
No idea if I have bacterial overgrowth, but I'm not ruling it out yet. Perhaps one of the last items to check into.
For me though Culturelle was the one negative probiotics experience. Could have been something else I suppose and bad timing on my part. I tried this probiotic called Pearl something or other. Have to look it up tonight.Lucy wrote:Mike,
Don't forget that Culturelle is the only probiotic that has been proven useful by a double blind scientic study. As you know, it doesn't mean that some or most of the others are just as good, just that they've not been scientifically demonstrated useful in this way.
I buy the "Milk Free" brand in the refrigerated supplement section at Whole Foods. Matter of fact, the company's headquarters are just down the highway from me in SugarLand.
To tell you the truth, I rarely take these, but will occasionally give my mother one after she's taken an antibiotic as prevention.
By the way, the beneficial bacteria in the gut are responsible for making some of your vitamins the natural way. That just might be a reason for some of the vit deficiencies so many of us had before our guts healed, or at least healed enough to make us assymptomic.
Yours, Luce
Well, lookie here, a recent study on the subject. :)
World J Gastroenterol. 2006 Jul 28;12(28):4452-60.
Therapeutic approaches targeting intestinal microflora in inflammatory bowel disease.
Andoh A, Fujiyama Y.
Department of Internal Medicine, Shiga University of Medical Science, Seta Tukinowa, Otsu 520-2192, Japan. andoh@belle.shiga-med.ac.jp.
Inflammatory bowel diseases, ulcerative colitis, and Crohn's disease, are chronic intestinal disorders of unknown etiology in which in genetically susceptible individuals, the mucosal immune system shows an aberrant response towards commensal bacteria. The gastrointestinal tract has developed ingenious mechanisms to coexist with its autologous microflora, but rapidly responds to invading pathogens and then returns to homeostasis with its commensal bacteria after the pathogenic infection is cleared. In case of disruption of this tightly-regulated homeostasis, chronic intestinal inflammation may be induced. Previous studies showed that some commensal bacteria are detrimental while others have either no influence or have a protective action. In addition, each host has a genetically determined response to detrimental and protective bacterial species. These suggest that therapeutic manipulation of imbalance of microflora can influence health and disease. This review focuses on new insights into the role of commensal bacteria in gut health and disease, and presents recent findings in innate and adaptive immune interactions. Therapeutic approaches to modulate balance of intestinal microflora and their potential mechanisms of action are also discussed.
Mike,
Actually, Dogtorj's "virus theory" fits right in with the genetic and dietary issues that we have. Did you read my last post on the first page of this topic?
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0
Note this connection between gliadins and lectins:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
Tex
Actually, Dogtorj's "virus theory" fits right in with the genetic and dietary issues that we have. Did you read my last post on the first page of this topic?
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0
Note this connection between gliadins and lectins:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi Tex,
Okay, that was a dumb question. Green beans are a legume though. So should I be avoiding them? I've eliminated grains, all known intolerences, nightshades, beans,and I thought legumes...but I guess I need to eliminate those too. I need to do this because of some relation to lectins, right?
Thanks.
Love,
Cristi
Okay, that was a dumb question. Green beans are a legume though. So should I be avoiding them? I've eliminated grains, all known intolerences, nightshades, beans,and I thought legumes...but I guess I need to eliminate those too. I need to do this because of some relation to lectins, right?
Thanks.
Love,
Cristi
Hi Cristi,
First off, remember that the virus theory is just a theory, and probably won't be proven for many years, (researchers have known for many years that viruses cause cancer, for example, but the medical profession in general, continues to mostly ignore that evidence. And, of course, until it's proven to be true, it might turn out to be just a worthless theory.
Your question is a good one, though. Yes green beans are legumes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you should stop eating them. Lectins are natural toxins, produced by plants, mostly to deter insects from eating them, and similar reasons, (for example some plants produce external toxins that prevent other plants from growing near them. Cedar is an example of this.) Some of these lectins are strong enough to actually kill certain insects, but their potency varies widely, and they work in various ways.
Lectins can be destroyed, (or deactivated), by proper cooking. If it weren't for that, some foods, such as soybeans, would cause problems for virtually everyone. (2% raw soybeans, in a feedlot ration, will always give cattle severe, uncontrollable diarrhea, for example, whereas if it is roasted properly, it's a great source of protein in their diet, and normally causes no probelms.) I'm not aware of anyone here, who has had serious problems from eating properly cooked green beans, even when they were/are having an active MC episode. Therefore, I feel that they are pretty much a safe food, as long as they are properly cooked. Some of us can't handle soybeans, though, no matter how well they're cooked.
If you can't find anything else that might be triggering your problems, it certainly wouldn't hurt to cut them out of your diet for a few days, to see if it makes a difference.
Love,
Tex
First off, remember that the virus theory is just a theory, and probably won't be proven for many years, (researchers have known for many years that viruses cause cancer, for example, but the medical profession in general, continues to mostly ignore that evidence. And, of course, until it's proven to be true, it might turn out to be just a worthless theory.
Your question is a good one, though. Yes green beans are legumes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you should stop eating them. Lectins are natural toxins, produced by plants, mostly to deter insects from eating them, and similar reasons, (for example some plants produce external toxins that prevent other plants from growing near them. Cedar is an example of this.) Some of these lectins are strong enough to actually kill certain insects, but their potency varies widely, and they work in various ways.
Lectins can be destroyed, (or deactivated), by proper cooking. If it weren't for that, some foods, such as soybeans, would cause problems for virtually everyone. (2% raw soybeans, in a feedlot ration, will always give cattle severe, uncontrollable diarrhea, for example, whereas if it is roasted properly, it's a great source of protein in their diet, and normally causes no probelms.) I'm not aware of anyone here, who has had serious problems from eating properly cooked green beans, even when they were/are having an active MC episode. Therefore, I feel that they are pretty much a safe food, as long as they are properly cooked. Some of us can't handle soybeans, though, no matter how well they're cooked.
If you can't find anything else that might be triggering your problems, it certainly wouldn't hurt to cut them out of your diet for a few days, to see if it makes a difference.
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi all,
Any time anyone changes his/her normal diet, it's not uncommon for that person to experience a little more gas than usual. Then, the gut will seemingly "get used to" the new diet and the gassiness will go away.
Supposedly, the short interrim of excess gas in even a normal gut is due to the readjustment of the normal gut flora, so this would be a good example of how food and bacteria can work together toward homeostatis in a normal gut.
Yours, Luce
Any time anyone changes his/her normal diet, it's not uncommon for that person to experience a little more gas than usual. Then, the gut will seemingly "get used to" the new diet and the gassiness will go away.
Supposedly, the short interrim of excess gas in even a normal gut is due to the readjustment of the normal gut flora, so this would be a good example of how food and bacteria can work together toward homeostatis in a normal gut.
Yours, Luce