"Good Bacteria" MC kills them off, do you suppleme

Discussions on the details of treatment programs using either diet, medications, or a combination of the two, can take place here.

Moderators: Rosie, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh

Post Reply
User avatar
bobh
Gentoo Penguin
Gentoo Penguin
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:07 am
Location: California, San Luis Obispo (coast)

"Good Bacteria" MC kills them off, do you suppleme

Post by bobh »

The "MC Overview" on this site says:
It is thought that MC occurs when the body mistakenly recognizes the "good" bacteria in its colon as foreign and begins to make antibodies to kill it off. This upsets the natural balance of "good vs. "bad" bacteria in the colon, which allows for an overgrowth of "bad" bacteria and leads to chronic inflammation.

What initiates the autoimmune process in the first place? It is believed that there is a genetic component......a gene that makes certain individuals more likely to get MC.
The FAQ's on this site says:
Many have found that probiotics help to boost the good bacteria in the gut. Vitamins and other nutrients may not be absorbed properly with active MC, and minerals may be lost when chronic diarrhea is present. Many choose to replace these with a daily multi-vitamin/mineral pill.
When I read this, I wonder if supplementing "good bacteria" adds to the problem of the body's auto-immune response. Curious, because I am trying to figure out if my recent downturn after introducing "homemade" yogurt (24 hour fermented per SCD, to get rid of Lactose) is simply a milk issue (casein), or is it also the "good bacteria" causing a reaction?

Do you folks find that adding "good bacteria" is needed just to have a normal amount of good bacteria?

I imagine many of you would go with a dairy free variety - so just thought I would open up this topic. I searched the site using keywords "good bacteria" and only found the 2 quotes above. Sorry if this has been discussed before and I overlooked it.
Bob H
User avatar
tex
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 9:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Post by tex »

The reason for the probiotics is because the gut will be populated by some type, (or types) of bacteria, and "good" bacteria are preferred over "bad" bacteria, especially since some of the "bad" varieties release toxins that can cause major problems.

In reality, unless a patient has had a course of antibiotics, or has some other reason to suspect dysbiosis, (such as a test result), I'm not so sure that the use of a probiotic is necessary for many of us. In fact, some of us do indeed have adverse reactions to the ingeston of a probiotic. Those individuals may indeed be experiencing an autoimmune reaction to those bacteria.

For the rest of us though, I sometimes wonder if that "explanation" of what is happening, is actually valid. I'm not aware that the "autoimmune reaction theory" has ever been proven for MC. If it has, I don't recall ever seeing the documentation. (That's not to say that it doesn't exist -- I just don't recall ever seeing it).

I kinda go along with Dogtorj's logic, which attributes the reaction to a virus. It's just a theory, (and be aware that Dogtorj is a vet, not an MD, but he is a highly qualified researcher, and one of the foremost authorities on food intolerances, and his theory makes a lot more sense to me, than the "autoimmune" theory.

If you're interested in reading about it, here's a link to his site:

http://www.dogtorj.net/

On his site, click on the link to the article titled Viruses - Friend or Foe?

His article on Lectins is interesting, also, as are most of his articles, for that matter.

Here's where we discussed some of his insights:

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... torj+virus

Tex
:cowboy:

It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
User avatar
bobh
Gentoo Penguin
Gentoo Penguin
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:07 am
Location: California, San Luis Obispo (coast)

Post by bobh »

Well that opens up a whole new area of info - thank you for posting that. I see that some of you have already gone deep into DoctorJ's research - he seems to be right on target for the issues we are dealing with.

It will take a while to absorb his site - but right off the bat I liked his article "What in the world do I eat???" That is a nice attitude, the opposite of all the things you CAN'T eat.
Bob H
User avatar
bobh
Gentoo Penguin
Gentoo Penguin
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:07 am
Location: California, San Luis Obispo (coast)

Post by bobh »

Dr. Fine's site says: What is the cause of Microscopic Colitis?
Extensive data from animals (mainly rodents) suggest that any form of colitis is the result of the body's immune system setting up an unusual attack on the bacteria living in the colon. What makes the body suddenly recognize these bacteria as harmful and worthy of this attack is not fully understood but there are several clues based on my research. First, it is known that aspirin and other non-steroidal antiinflammatory drugs (NSAID's) can cause this reaction. Also, if the balance of less immune stimulating bacteria (we will call "good bacteria") and more immunostimulatory bacteria ("bad bacteria") favors the latter, inflammation can result.
Is this the reference material that was used for this site's "MC Overview"? I looked this over a few times, and don't see the focus on the immune system attack on "good" bacteria.

For those that haven't been to Dr. Fine's site for a while, here's a link to the above quote: http://www.finerhealth.com/Educational_ ... c_Colitis/
Dr. Fine's site says: How should Microscopic Colitis be treated?
(he has the paragraph on Pepto Bismal, then this) Because it seems clear that the colitis stems from the organisms living in the colon, my latest studies have implemented steps at trying to rid the colon of these immunogenic strains of bacteria, replacing them with the good bacteria mentioned above. In general, good bacteria in this context refers to Lactobacillus species. The best way to impart this favorable effect on the bacteria of the colon is by dietary manipulation and supplementing with a Lactobacillus supplement.
The Pepto Bismal therapy helped me tremendously, I cycled on and off of the protocol, then it just stopped working. It seems to have fallen out of favor - I don't see a lot of people talking about it on this site. I don't remember reading Dr. Fine's comment about Lactobacillus when I was doing testing with Dr. Fine in 2004. Maybe he added it - or I just overlooked it.
What we have learned about MC (from this MC site) Probiotic - Lactobacillus GG (like Culturelle) helps boost the good bacteria in the gut. It can be ordered on-line at http://www.culturelle.com./ (Culturelle is a brand name). Although many have had good results with probiotics, some have felt worse when taking them.
I have taken various brands, never tried Culturelle. I remember it was popular on some of the original MC sites. Think I will give it a try.
Bob H
User avatar
bobh
Gentoo Penguin
Gentoo Penguin
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:07 am
Location: California, San Luis Obispo (coast)

Post by bobh »

There is a post that Sally did, under "current research" that had links regarding "gut flora and probiotics". This article is tough to digest, but DOES reference the theory that existed prior to it being written in 2004 of IBD attacking "good bacteria" - but now they think that may not be true:
The article says:
The findings may also revise thinking about the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), in which the intestine is believed to mount an inflammatory response to benign, or commensal, bacteria.
Here's the link Sally had provided http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 072104.php
The title to that article is Good bacteria trigger proteins to protect the gut and appears to be a positive vote for probiotics.
Bob H
User avatar
tex
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 9:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Post by tex »

Hi Bob,

Those observations came from various references, which stated "generally accepted" opinions of the issues surrounding MC. In the quote you included from Dr. Fine's site, for example, note that he said:
. . .any form of colitis is the result of the body's immune system setting up an unusual attack on the bacteria living in the colon. What makes the body suddenly recognize these bacteria as harmful and worthy of this attack is not fully understood . . .
He doesn't actually say that the body's immune system attacks the "good" bacteria, nor does he say that it attacks the "bad" bacteria. He implys that all bacteria are involved, and equally targeted. (Though an imbalance of "good" versus "bad" bacteria may, of course, be a possible trigger that initiates this event). Also, note that Dr. Fine has a habit, (like many of us who have websites), of never removing, and never editing, material from his site. Instead, as he discovers new evidence that creates new insights and opinions, he adds new articles to the site. The older articles, however, are left intact. At least that appears to be the case, as far as I can tell.

As I mentioned previously, no one knows for sure exactly what causes MC, and there are many theories about it. Personally, I believe that there may be many immediate causes, but ultimately, I lean toward the opinion that the reactions themselves are caused by an immune system response against a virus that feels threatened, and the virus attacks what it perceives as an attack on itself, whether it be by NSAIDs, various other meds, the two toxic gliadins in gluten, or various other toxins, (or perceived toxins), such as lectins, for example. The virus feels that it is being attacked, so it begins to replicate itself, and the immune system of the patient senses the virus reproducing in large numbers, and launches an immue response against it. That's how I see it.

Here's what the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America says about MC:
What Causes Microscopic Colitis, and Who Gets It?

What's responsible for the damaged lining of the colon in microscopic colitis? As with ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease, the exact cause has yet to be identified. But bacteria, bacterial toxins, and viruses are among the usual suspects that have been implicated.

Some experts have suggested that nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), such as aspirin or ibuprofen, might be the actual culprits. It is also possible that these medications might simply aggravate symptoms in individuals who are already prone to the syndrome. Another theory is that collagenous colitis and lymphocytic colitis are caused by an autoimmune response, which means that the body launches an attack upon itself -- mistaking various cells in the colon for foreign intruders. The final answer may well turn out to be some combination of these theories.


They also suggest a connection between MC and celiac sprue, which I strongly agree with. Here's a link to the article on their website, if you want to read the rest of the story.

http://www.ccfa.org/about/news/microscopiccolitis

The Pepto Bismol treatment was the first practical treatment for MC that was developed, (and it was develped by Dr. Fine, of course), however, he no longer recommends it, primarily because without additional changes in the patients lifestyle, such as diet restrictions, the symptoms almost always return a few weeks after the bismuth treatment is discontinued, and there is a slight risk of toxic reactions to the bismuth.

The PB treatment can only be used for about 8 weeks, because of the accumulation of bismuth in the body, which will eventually reach toxic levels, and cause serious problems. In fact, some of our members had toxic reactions after only a few weeks, and some had problems after only a few days of treatment with PB. Anyway, this is why the PB treatment has fallen out of favor, and Dr. Fine's current recommended treatment of choice, is diet.

Dr. Fine has always recommened a probiotic, but curiously, to my knowlege, he has never found one that he feels fully satisfies the needs of most MC patients, so he cannot recommend one to use. Initially, he recommended Culturelle, but he stopped recommending it after he apparently had problems with it himself. (In case you are not aware of this, Dr. Fine himself, has MC, which I'm sure is a driving force behind all the research that he has done in this area).

Tex
:cowboy:

It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
mle_ii
Rockhopper Penguin
Rockhopper Penguin
Posts: 1487
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 5:29 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Post by mle_ii »

I too found culturelle to be bothersome for me. Got really sick after 1 dose. But the one I'm currently taking doesn't bug me at all.

I'm very much leaning towards a Virus/Bacteria as well. Heck I'm thinking that Celiac must have something to do with some sort of pathogen (besides gluten).
User avatar
bobh
Gentoo Penguin
Gentoo Penguin
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:07 am
Location: California, San Luis Obispo (coast)

Post by bobh »

Thanks for the info folks - appreciate your time. I stopped the yogurt because of the explosive gas for 3 days in a row. After stopping yogurt & all dairy for the 2nd day, I am feeling better than I have for a while, and the D has less urgency. I am thinking the "good bacteria" from the yogurt may be part of the success, in addition to cutting out dairy.

I have cut out dairy before without noticing this much improvement. So I will take a non-dairy probiotic and see how that goes.
Bob H
User avatar
tex
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 9:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Post by tex »

I'm glad you're feeling better. Please keep us informed on how the probiotic goes, since there's always a lot of interest in that topic.

Tex
:cowboy:

It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Lucy
Rockhopper Penguin
Rockhopper Penguin
Posts: 1399
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 9:31 pm

Post by Lucy »

Bob,

If you've a Whole Foods near you, see if they have the milk-free chewable ones that have to be kept refrigerated or else they'll not be alive. One's I get are made by Bluebonnet company right here in Sugarland, and they are free of the allergens.

These have never bothered me, so I keep them on hand, and pop one every now and then if everything doesn't feel just right. A healthfood store owner on the west side of town told me that the owner's son had worked for him in the summers at his store, and that they were good people. I think that people often go into these kinds of business with high motivation to help others with something they've experienced themselves or someone close to them has.

Anyway, I very much like this brand as well as Country Life for the allergy free products that they provide in the forms that I want.

The sublingual B-12/folate I'm always bragging about is made by Biochem which is a special line of Country Life.

Another brand I like for their Vit D gel caps/allergen free, is Solgar. Generally speaking, I prefer the lines that come in glass bottles, not that all of those are going to pass my other tests, just something I've noticed.

All that being said, I'm lousy at remembering to take my non-prescription supplements, even with osteoporosis! Duh!

By the way, wouldn't the co-occurence of so many other autoimmune conditions with MC/celiac tend to make one think these would also be autoimmune?
That's my hunch, anyway.

Yours, Luce
User avatar
tex
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 9:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Post by tex »

Lucy wrote:By the way, wouldn't the co-occurence of so many other autoimmune conditions with MC/celiac tend to make one think these would also be autoimmune?
That's my hunch, anyway.

Yours, Luce
My hunch is that some day, someone will demonstrate that a virus is implicated in all those other so-called "autoimmune" conditions, also.

Tex
:cowboy:

It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussions on Treatment Options Using Diet, and/or Medications”