Hi All,
Inflammatory bowel diseases, (IBDs), are generally believed to be autoimmune diseases, (that is, it is believed that they are caused by overactive immune systems). Why then, do medical experts continue to blame the increased prevelence of IBDs in developed countries on underveloped immune systems, (caused by sanitary conditions in developed countries). Here's the most recent example in the news, today:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 184850.htm
Am I missing something here?
Tex
Am I The Only One To See A Conflict Here?
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Am I The Only One To See A Conflict Here?
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Not sure, just a random stab as I'm still not agreeing with there being anything such as autoimmune diseases.
But perhaps an underdevloped immune system (meaning it's adaptive mechanisms are not quite up to par I'm guessing) isn't capable of handling an attack so it over reacts (using it's innate system).
The problem with the innate system (I hope I'm using the right terms as I just learned about this) is that it is not specfic to the attack so it attacks everything at the site (both good and bad cells), as opposed to the adaptive system that attacks the specific thing/cell that is attacking.
But perhaps an underdevloped immune system (meaning it's adaptive mechanisms are not quite up to par I'm guessing) isn't capable of handling an attack so it over reacts (using it's innate system).
The problem with the innate system (I hope I'm using the right terms as I just learned about this) is that it is not specfic to the attack so it attacks everything at the site (both good and bad cells), as opposed to the adaptive system that attacks the specific thing/cell that is attacking.
-
kate_ce1995
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 1321
- Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 5:53 pm
- Location: Vermont
Here is my WAG.
The immune system is very complex and when some cells associated (there are T cells and K cells and all sorts of others, and don't ask me what they all do because I have no idea) with the immune system get lazy, it triggers other cells to become over active. Or so I was told in relation to endometriosis. This is one of the reasons that immunosuppressant drugs can help conditions, but they also further supress the ones that are already lazier, making them more lazy.
My understanding of some of the direction research is going, is to identify which cells are responsible what what actions and then working on drugs to target only those cells. So say it turns out gluten sensitivty is a T cell over reaction, then you'd be able to suppress T cells, leaving the K's and all the others alone. Or conversly, supress one while increasing the activity of another.
Katy
The immune system is very complex and when some cells associated (there are T cells and K cells and all sorts of others, and don't ask me what they all do because I have no idea) with the immune system get lazy, it triggers other cells to become over active. Or so I was told in relation to endometriosis. This is one of the reasons that immunosuppressant drugs can help conditions, but they also further supress the ones that are already lazier, making them more lazy.
My understanding of some of the direction research is going, is to identify which cells are responsible what what actions and then working on drugs to target only those cells. So say it turns out gluten sensitivty is a T cell over reaction, then you'd be able to suppress T cells, leaving the K's and all the others alone. Or conversly, supress one while increasing the activity of another.
Katy
Well, I believe that the underdeveloped immune system viewpoint is correct. I'm just not convinced that the concept of autoimmune diseases is more than just an arbitrary assumption, and will someday be proven to be incorrect.
True there are many complex components of the immune system that take different approaches to reactions. I just believe that their reactions are valid, (and not corrupt, as assumed by the autoimmune theory), and we simply haven't discovered the correct reason for their actions, when they appear to be "mis-firing".
Tex
True there are many complex components of the immune system that take different approaches to reactions. I just believe that their reactions are valid, (and not corrupt, as assumed by the autoimmune theory), and we simply haven't discovered the correct reason for their actions, when they appear to be "mis-firing".
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Exactly. In every instance I've seen thus far of "autoimmune" diseases I've seen a plausible explanation for why the reaction is indeed the correct reaction. Thus like you don't agree with there being autoimmune diseases.
Oh and I read the article, given that context there are some other plausible reasons why IBD might occur more often in developed nations or in Northern regions as they put it.
For example, given that we process our foods so much that we don't get the parts of foods and plants we used to eat that actually have benefit. For example fiber, bone, stems, seeds, peels have all shown to have beneficial chemicals for the human body that we now don't eat.
The farther north we get the less vitamin D we get via the sun.
The more developed we get the more we take medications that cause problems elsewhere in the body or even only help the symptoms and not the cause. Hell look at what I just wrote about NSAIDs as an example.
Along with being cleaner we use anti bacterial products, thus perhaps creating these super bugs that we won't be able to kill with anything.
And as cruel as it sounds, the more drugs, medicine, etc, the more potential for the gene pool to not be able to natrually select those with "good" genes and those with "bad" genes. Ugg, I know, this really does sound bad. :(
I'm guessing that folks in developed nations also have more chronic stress as opposed to situational or short term stress. Short term or specfic stresses our bodies were build to handle, long term and chronic stress we don't do so well with.
I'm sure I could go on. But those came to my head in response to that article.
Mike
Oh and I read the article, given that context there are some other plausible reasons why IBD might occur more often in developed nations or in Northern regions as they put it.
For example, given that we process our foods so much that we don't get the parts of foods and plants we used to eat that actually have benefit. For example fiber, bone, stems, seeds, peels have all shown to have beneficial chemicals for the human body that we now don't eat.
The farther north we get the less vitamin D we get via the sun.
The more developed we get the more we take medications that cause problems elsewhere in the body or even only help the symptoms and not the cause. Hell look at what I just wrote about NSAIDs as an example.
Along with being cleaner we use anti bacterial products, thus perhaps creating these super bugs that we won't be able to kill with anything.
And as cruel as it sounds, the more drugs, medicine, etc, the more potential for the gene pool to not be able to natrually select those with "good" genes and those with "bad" genes. Ugg, I know, this really does sound bad. :(
I'm guessing that folks in developed nations also have more chronic stress as opposed to situational or short term stress. Short term or specfic stresses our bodies were build to handle, long term and chronic stress we don't do so well with.
I'm sure I could go on. But those came to my head in response to that article.
Mike
-
artteacher
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 731
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 pm
.
Hi Tex,
I'm not sure that over and under functioning immunes systems are the correct terms. Maybe AIDS is an underfunctioning IS, but the over functioning types should be more correctly called "malfunctioning IS's", or IS's that have mistakenly targeted a particular substance.
And I think Canada being the highest incidence of IBD might be due more to the type of wheat grown there: aren't Canada and Montana (and Washington state) sources of hard red wheat? I think it's higher in gluten content).
Just a thought. Take it for what it's worth . . Marsha
I'm not sure that over and under functioning immunes systems are the correct terms. Maybe AIDS is an underfunctioning IS, but the over functioning types should be more correctly called "malfunctioning IS's", or IS's that have mistakenly targeted a particular substance.
And I think Canada being the highest incidence of IBD might be due more to the type of wheat grown there: aren't Canada and Montana (and Washington state) sources of hard red wheat? I think it's higher in gluten content).
Just a thought. Take it for what it's worth . . Marsha
Marsha,
Yes, I agree that an overactive immune system would be a corrupt immune system. The question is whether or not ovearactive, (corrupt), immune systems actually exist, and if they do, then specifically, do corrupt immune systems cause IBDs?
You are correct - Canada and those three northwestern states in the US, grow the best quality milling wheat, (read that to mean the hardest wheat, with the highest gluten content), for pasta and general baking flours. However, all of the varieties of wheat used for baking, are hard red wheat varieties, even the ones grown down here in Texas. In fact, they are hard red winter wheat varieties. Hard red spring wheat varieties exist, but while they will work, the quality is usually lower, (and so is the yield). Soft wheats are used only for animal feed, (due to their poor milling characteristics).
After re-reading the article that I referenced, (about Canada having a high "incidence" of Crohn's and UC, I have to question the validity of the information in the article. The author seems to be confusing the terms "incidence" and "prevalence", by using them interchangeably. They are most definitetly not interchangeable. "Incidence" refers to the number of new cases per year, whereas "prevalance" refers to the total number of cases. That serious breach of syntax etiquette sort of confounds the information in the article.
Regardless, you've raised an interesting point, of course, since England also grows pretty good wheat, and also has a high prevalence of Crohn's disease. Scotland most likely has the highest levels in the world, and if my memory is correct, they grow good wheat there, also.
So, I assume that you're suggesting that wheat causes Crohn's disease. Could be. There's no question that Crohn's disease involves food intolerances.
Note also, that the areas of the world with a high prevalance of Crohn's disease overlap areas where Johnnes disease, (caused by the paratuberculosis micobacterium), is a major problem, thus presenting circumstantial evidence for the possibility of an alternative mode of infection for Crohn's.
Tex
P S Here's a chart showing the prevalance and incidence of Crohn's disease in various parts of the world, along with additional information.
http://alan.kennedy.name/crohns/epistats.htm
Yes, I agree that an overactive immune system would be a corrupt immune system. The question is whether or not ovearactive, (corrupt), immune systems actually exist, and if they do, then specifically, do corrupt immune systems cause IBDs?
You are correct - Canada and those three northwestern states in the US, grow the best quality milling wheat, (read that to mean the hardest wheat, with the highest gluten content), for pasta and general baking flours. However, all of the varieties of wheat used for baking, are hard red wheat varieties, even the ones grown down here in Texas. In fact, they are hard red winter wheat varieties. Hard red spring wheat varieties exist, but while they will work, the quality is usually lower, (and so is the yield). Soft wheats are used only for animal feed, (due to their poor milling characteristics).
After re-reading the article that I referenced, (about Canada having a high "incidence" of Crohn's and UC, I have to question the validity of the information in the article. The author seems to be confusing the terms "incidence" and "prevalence", by using them interchangeably. They are most definitetly not interchangeable. "Incidence" refers to the number of new cases per year, whereas "prevalance" refers to the total number of cases. That serious breach of syntax etiquette sort of confounds the information in the article.
Regardless, you've raised an interesting point, of course, since England also grows pretty good wheat, and also has a high prevalence of Crohn's disease. Scotland most likely has the highest levels in the world, and if my memory is correct, they grow good wheat there, also.
So, I assume that you're suggesting that wheat causes Crohn's disease. Could be. There's no question that Crohn's disease involves food intolerances.
Note also, that the areas of the world with a high prevalance of Crohn's disease overlap areas where Johnnes disease, (caused by the paratuberculosis micobacterium), is a major problem, thus presenting circumstantial evidence for the possibility of an alternative mode of infection for Crohn's.
Tex
P S Here's a chart showing the prevalance and incidence of Crohn's disease in various parts of the world, along with additional information.
http://alan.kennedy.name/crohns/epistats.htm
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Here's some info that seems to agree with some of the stuff I've said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
I'll have to do some more research but a bunch of these items I've already run accross in various studies.Preventing Inflammatory Bowel Disease
Another indicator that bacteria help train the immune system is the epidemiology of Inflammatory Bowel Disease, or IBD, such as Crohn's Disease (CD). Some authors suggest that SCFAs prevent IBD. In addition, some forms of bacteria can prevent inflammation. The incidence and prevalence of IBD is high in industrialized countries with a high standard of living and low in less economically developed countries, having increased in developed countries throughout the twentieth century. The disease is also linked to good hygiene in youth; lack of breastfeeding; and consumption of large amounts of sucrose and animal fat. Its incidence is inversely linked with poor sanitation during the first years of life and consumption of fruits, vegetables, and unprocessed foods. Also, the use of antibiotics, which kill active gut flora and harmful infectious pathogens alike, especially during childhood, is associated with irritable bowel syndrome. On the other hand, using probiotics, bacteria consumed as part of the diet that impart health benefits (aside from just nutrition), helps treat IBD. All of these factors could indicate that IBD is caused by inadequate amounts of normal gut flora colonizing a person’s gut.