Hmmm... all the questions about probiotics and I didn't even think to look up the one used in a majority of IBD/IBS and other diseases. That being VSL#3. It appears that one can even get it without prescription. Though it is expensive without one. I see that it's $75 for 1 pack (30 or so day supply depending on how much per day you take), though if you order more it goes down in price.
Though I would expect this product to be best for getting into remission and perhaps not maintainence given the price and count of bacteria per container. We're talking about 450 billion live lactic acid bacteria per packet as opposed to the 2-5 billion I see on the ones I've used. The one I'm trying right now is bifdo only and contains only 2 billion per dose.
http://www.vsl3.com/VSL3/default.asp
Here's the pricing:
Pricing - VSL#3 30 Pack
# of Boxes % Discount Cost per Box
1 0% $75.00
2 to 5 5% $71.25
6 to 11 10% $67.88
12 to 50 15% $64.82
Thanks,
Mike
Anyone tried the Probiotic VSL#3?
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Mike,
I would like to try a probiotic again. I used to take Culturelle, but after a while I really started getting sick from it. Every time I took one it felt as if a war were going on in my gut. (And this was after I was in remission with diet). I know there is a minute amount of lactose in it, but it felt as if maybe I had developed increasing antibodies to the lactobacillus.
What is the name of the bifido one you take? I might try the VSL#3, but I hate to spend that much $$$ if it is going to make me sick.
BTW, just a reminder to everyone to be careful when you travel on an airplane with probiotics. If they go thru the xray, they can be killed/inactivated.
Polly
I would like to try a probiotic again. I used to take Culturelle, but after a while I really started getting sick from it. Every time I took one it felt as if a war were going on in my gut. (And this was after I was in remission with diet). I know there is a minute amount of lactose in it, but it felt as if maybe I had developed increasing antibodies to the lactobacillus.
What is the name of the bifido one you take? I might try the VSL#3, but I hate to spend that much $$$ if it is going to make me sick.
BTW, just a reminder to everyone to be careful when you travel on an airplane with probiotics. If they go thru the xray, they can be killed/inactivated.
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
I just started the bifido, but it's by Jarrow. Perhaps this one will work and I won't need the other. I'm getting my Dr to write up a perscription for the VSL#3 and I'll give that one a try when I get it.
This one:
http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-exec ... t_id/25347
As far as the cost for VSL#3 it seems like this level of potentcy for a probiotic would only be needed for getting the gut flora corrected rather than for maintainence, but that's only a guess. Making sure to eat the right kinds of fiber/carbs would help maintain the good ones and keep the bad ones from growing as well. For one the good ones produce chemicals that don't allow the bad ones to grow well, that and it seems that sugars are what the bad ones need for growth. Though I have read more studies where one bacteria will produce something that another will consume.
Also, I wouldn't travel with probiotics at all if possible as though some say they do fine without refrigeration it seems the ones in the studies are refrigerated that and even the ones without refrigeration required say that they lose the number of live bacteria for each day not refrigerated.
Mike
This one:
http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-exec ... t_id/25347
As far as the cost for VSL#3 it seems like this level of potentcy for a probiotic would only be needed for getting the gut flora corrected rather than for maintainence, but that's only a guess. Making sure to eat the right kinds of fiber/carbs would help maintain the good ones and keep the bad ones from growing as well. For one the good ones produce chemicals that don't allow the bad ones to grow well, that and it seems that sugars are what the bad ones need for growth. Though I have read more studies where one bacteria will produce something that another will consume.
Also, I wouldn't travel with probiotics at all if possible as though some say they do fine without refrigeration it seems the ones in the studies are refrigerated that and even the ones without refrigeration required say that they lose the number of live bacteria for each day not refrigerated.
Mike
Hi Mike and Polly,
This was one of the first things I tried ....right after surgery when I was having D and way before I was dx with MC or had started diet or meds. It made me violently ill....granted a lot of things were making me ill then. I did try a different probiotic later and didn't have such a negative response...just increased gas. I am gearing up to try a probiotic again as well but I won't be going near the VSL#3. I know we are all different but I just wanted to share my experience with you.
Love,
Cristi
This was one of the first things I tried ....right after surgery when I was having D and way before I was dx with MC or had started diet or meds. It made me violently ill....granted a lot of things were making me ill then. I did try a different probiotic later and didn't have such a negative response...just increased gas. I am gearing up to try a probiotic again as well but I won't be going near the VSL#3. I know we are all different but I just wanted to share my experience with you.
Love,
Cristi
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bobh
- Gentoo Penguin
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- Location: California, San Luis Obispo (coast)
Not really an answer to your question - but I am of the opinion that probiotics will never hit the bullseye of what is going on with MC.
Like you say, get tested, see if you have enough friendly flora... I had all the symptoms of severe Candida, for over a decade. Various tests showed low flora, nothing real conclusive in my opinion. Took dozens of types of flora (but not the brand you mention). Never made a difference, except some caused immediate gas.
When I tried the Specific Carbo Diet 6 months ago, you are supposed to make your own yogurt, and I did that, still do it as a precaution, take tons of it. But it never helped my MC.
By definition, it is an autoimmune condition. The body is doing something that is damaging (or inflaming) it's own self. Personally, I am certain my condition is not caused by (or remedied by) a flora imbalance.
Hopefully some people can find symptom relief with various supplements, but absolutely none of them had any effect for me until I tried anti-inflammatory meds.
Like you say, get tested, see if you have enough friendly flora... I had all the symptoms of severe Candida, for over a decade. Various tests showed low flora, nothing real conclusive in my opinion. Took dozens of types of flora (but not the brand you mention). Never made a difference, except some caused immediate gas.
When I tried the Specific Carbo Diet 6 months ago, you are supposed to make your own yogurt, and I did that, still do it as a precaution, take tons of it. But it never helped my MC.
By definition, it is an autoimmune condition. The body is doing something that is damaging (or inflaming) it's own self. Personally, I am certain my condition is not caused by (or remedied by) a flora imbalance.
Hopefully some people can find symptom relief with various supplements, but absolutely none of them had any effect for me until I tried anti-inflammatory meds.
Bob H
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barbaranoela
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I spoke to a rep. @ Culturelle----and they told me---Culturelle(on the shelves of Walgreens,etc, DO NOT LOSE ANY of THEIR POTENCY~~
I have been using Culturelle since 2001 and I,for one, do very nicelywith it~~I get it shipped to me within 2 days and then I do refrigerate it~~~
So there shall be no changes for me---
Again---the old saying----*what works for one--might not work for another*
luve Barbara
PS. not adding that Culturelle (preferred by my GI) mended me--cus I did need to be treated with meds.---but I am *hoping* that it is of a help.
who knows----????
I have been using Culturelle since 2001 and I,for one, do very nicelywith it~~I get it shipped to me within 2 days and then I do refrigerate it~~~
So there shall be no changes for me---
Again---the old saying----*what works for one--might not work for another*
luve Barbara
PS. not adding that Culturelle (preferred by my GI) mended me--cus I did need to be treated with meds.---but I am *hoping* that it is of a help.
who knows----????
the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control
Bob,
You have to bear in mind that while it is true that MC is classified as an autoimmune disease by definition, that implies that the definition is subject to change at the whims of those who do the defining. In the medical and health fields, (as with other sciences), opinions sometimes evolve, and even change drastically, as new evidence becomes available.
I'm not saying that MC is not an autoimmune disease, (since I don't have the authority to make that judgment anyway), but I believe that some day we will see research that sheds a whole new light on "autoimmune diseases", and it will change the way that we think about autoimmune issues.
In mathematical terms, MC is not a "well behaved function'. IOW, it is a highly-variable, multi-facited condition, that seems to to present in many different ways in various patients, and there are indeed, many people walking around with the clear markers of MC, but absolutely no clinical symptoms. The unknowns about MC would fill volumes.
We are treating symptoms, and hoping for relief, but we really don't know much about the disease that we refer to as microscopic colitis.
I've never used a probiotic, so I don't have any right to vote in the issue of whether or not probiotics will help with the recovery for patients with MC. I do believe, however, that bacterial overgrowth can definitely play a part in the initialization, and/or development of MC. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it plays a key role in the initiation of most, or even all, cases of MC.
Tex
You have to bear in mind that while it is true that MC is classified as an autoimmune disease by definition, that implies that the definition is subject to change at the whims of those who do the defining. In the medical and health fields, (as with other sciences), opinions sometimes evolve, and even change drastically, as new evidence becomes available.
I'm not saying that MC is not an autoimmune disease, (since I don't have the authority to make that judgment anyway), but I believe that some day we will see research that sheds a whole new light on "autoimmune diseases", and it will change the way that we think about autoimmune issues.
In mathematical terms, MC is not a "well behaved function'. IOW, it is a highly-variable, multi-facited condition, that seems to to present in many different ways in various patients, and there are indeed, many people walking around with the clear markers of MC, but absolutely no clinical symptoms. The unknowns about MC would fill volumes.
We are treating symptoms, and hoping for relief, but we really don't know much about the disease that we refer to as microscopic colitis.
I've never used a probiotic, so I don't have any right to vote in the issue of whether or not probiotics will help with the recovery for patients with MC. I do believe, however, that bacterial overgrowth can definitely play a part in the initialization, and/or development of MC. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it plays a key role in the initiation of most, or even all, cases of MC.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi All,
If memory serves me right (big if) I think Andrew used VSL#3 and did just fine with it. It comes in a packet with loose granules so my advise would be that if you want to try it to test with just a sprinkle to try. Seems to me I took a full dose and was in terrible shape for a few days. Experimenting is soo stressful isn't it? Good luck.
Love,
Cristi
If memory serves me right (big if) I think Andrew used VSL#3 and did just fine with it. It comes in a packet with loose granules so my advise would be that if you want to try it to test with just a sprinkle to try. Seems to me I took a full dose and was in terrible shape for a few days. Experimenting is soo stressful isn't it? Good luck.
Love,
Cristi
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bobh
- Gentoo Penguin
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:07 am
- Location: California, San Luis Obispo (coast)
I was born in 1956 when it was popular to bottle-feed kids rather than breast feed. I have often wondered if my immune system would be more normal if I had the "intended" immunity from the mother's milk.tex wrote:Bob... I do believe, however, that bacterial overgrowth can definitely play a part in the initialization, and/or development of MC. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it plays a key role in the initiation of most, or even all, cases of MC.
Colostrum is one that I didn't get, and there are other immunity factors (I've been trying something called Lauricidin which is supposed to = an immunity that mother's impart to a newborn). We can supplement those things, don't know if it's as good as getting it right the first time.
I hope Probiotics help some MC'ers symptoms. I continue to take it without perceptible benefit (for over a decade) just because it seems like a good idea. Like taking a good multi-vite is a good idea. Neither would "cork" me up, but we know I'm a basket case!
Bob H
Hi!
I have never tried the VSL#3 but I take one called DDS-Plus which is dairy free. It has over 5 billion active lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidus, with FOS. We have always stated that what works for one, may not work for another, but I can tell if I miss a few doses and taking it regularly, I seem to not catch colds, etc... I just take it as suggested, 2 in the morning before breakfast. I don't ever expect it to throw me into a remission... But I do think it ups the good flora count.
Just my 2 cents worth!!!
Love
Dee~~~~~
I have never tried the VSL#3 but I take one called DDS-Plus which is dairy free. It has over 5 billion active lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidus, with FOS. We have always stated that what works for one, may not work for another, but I can tell if I miss a few doses and taking it regularly, I seem to not catch colds, etc... I just take it as suggested, 2 in the morning before breakfast. I don't ever expect it to throw me into a remission... But I do think it ups the good flora count.
Just my 2 cents worth!!!
Love
Dee~~~~~
Bob,
We did a poll on that topic almost a year and a half ago, but the results were split almost evenly, and probably not very useful, due to the low participation, (only 6 votes).
I was, but had a lot of asthma as a kid, and hay fever, later. Still, who knows? I might have been a lot worse, otherwise.
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=327
Tex
We did a poll on that topic almost a year and a half ago, but the results were split almost evenly, and probably not very useful, due to the low participation, (only 6 votes).
I was, but had a lot of asthma as a kid, and hay fever, later. Still, who knows? I might have been a lot worse, otherwise.
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=327
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Which came first the chicken or the egg. The more and more I research the more I think that the autoimmune aspect is a symptom of MC or what ever causes MC. I can see very little reason for one to just randomly get autoimmunity without some trigger.
So this goes back to the cause of MC. I would place my bet on disregulation of the GI tract. This disregulation would involve either one or all of the following:
Dysbiosis (good or bad bacteria or fungi being in the wrong amounts for balance) - regulates immunity, food/antigen tollerance, Vitamin status, caloric intake, bile acid regulation, perhaps even cortisol levels
Vitamin D status - regulates immunity, food/antigen tolerance, Mineral status
Bile acid problems - too much is toxic, wrong ammounts of types toxic, involves cholesterol, Vitamin D, steroid status, malabsorption, Vitamin/Mineral status, changes bacteria/funti/virus status
Virus - pretty self explanitory, but if any of the above are out of order then this is more likely. Though given some studies I wouldn't place my bet on a continuos virus infection, more like one that upset the balance to start with.
Cortisol regulation - affects some of the above as well as immune regulation.
Food intollerance/allergery - this affects all of the above as well.
So without addressing any, or even all depending on the person, of these one won't get better. They are all so tightly woven together that I can see how one might get in a vicious cycle in this disease and have it be difficult to get out.
What is rather interesting is how all of these seem to play into how some folks get better and others do not. Why some spontaneously get better on their own and others require some medication, some require a great amount and some don't seem to ever get better. If one were to study all of these items together in terms of Microscopic Colitis I would bet quite a bit that they would find the key or keys here. In fact I would bet that they would find a key to a great deal of diseases.
I've been on a probiotic research frenzy lately and you'd be amazed at what those bacteria in our GI tract do for us or don't do for us when out of balance. I really wish I'd been keeping a blog or some sort of writings where I kept track of everything I've found. I think we are very close to figuring out what's going on if only folks would look a bit more here and in the other areas I mentioned.
Thanks,
Mike
So this goes back to the cause of MC. I would place my bet on disregulation of the GI tract. This disregulation would involve either one or all of the following:
Dysbiosis (good or bad bacteria or fungi being in the wrong amounts for balance) - regulates immunity, food/antigen tollerance, Vitamin status, caloric intake, bile acid regulation, perhaps even cortisol levels
Vitamin D status - regulates immunity, food/antigen tolerance, Mineral status
Bile acid problems - too much is toxic, wrong ammounts of types toxic, involves cholesterol, Vitamin D, steroid status, malabsorption, Vitamin/Mineral status, changes bacteria/funti/virus status
Virus - pretty self explanitory, but if any of the above are out of order then this is more likely. Though given some studies I wouldn't place my bet on a continuos virus infection, more like one that upset the balance to start with.
Cortisol regulation - affects some of the above as well as immune regulation.
Food intollerance/allergery - this affects all of the above as well.
So without addressing any, or even all depending on the person, of these one won't get better. They are all so tightly woven together that I can see how one might get in a vicious cycle in this disease and have it be difficult to get out.
What is rather interesting is how all of these seem to play into how some folks get better and others do not. Why some spontaneously get better on their own and others require some medication, some require a great amount and some don't seem to ever get better. If one were to study all of these items together in terms of Microscopic Colitis I would bet quite a bit that they would find the key or keys here. In fact I would bet that they would find a key to a great deal of diseases.
I've been on a probiotic research frenzy lately and you'd be amazed at what those bacteria in our GI tract do for us or don't do for us when out of balance. I really wish I'd been keeping a blog or some sort of writings where I kept track of everything I've found. I think we are very close to figuring out what's going on if only folks would look a bit more here and in the other areas I mentioned.
Thanks,
Mike
Describe what violently ill was for you after taking this. Was it worse than how you were already, were things worse long afterward, like say a month or so, worse than your symptoms now? How long did you try it for?cludwig wrote:Hi Mike and Polly,
This was one of the first things I tried ....right after surgery when I was having D and way before I was dx with MC or had started diet or meds. It made me violently ill....granted a lot of things were making me ill then. I did try a different probiotic later and didn't have such a negative response...just increased gas. I am gearing up to try a probiotic again as well but I won't be going near the VSL#3. I know we are all different but I just wanted to share my experience with you.
Love,
Cristi
I wonder if some of the other things that you've mentioned are wrong played a key more than the MC itself did. Who knows for sure.
I'm going to give it a try though and let you now how it goes... if I don't report back then I wouldn't give it a try. ;)
Do you have the actual results of any of those tests? I'd really like to hear what they found. Thanks!bobh wrote:Like you say, get tested, see if you have enough friendly flora... I had all the symptoms of severe Candida, for over a decade. Various tests showed low flora, nothing real conclusive in my opinion.
Also, for how long did you try the VLS#3? Any symptoms change besides the gas?