Hi,
As far as the gallbladder spasm theory...I stopped having these attacks a few years ago after I had iron infusions for severe anemia. I know when I was anemic I had terrible problems with my legs cramping and had restless leg syndrome. That went away after the infusions along with the gallbladder attacks until this week. Yet another theory.
Love,
Cristi
Test Results
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Hi Cristi,
Well, as my TV stand-in mentioned, (LOL), there could be other things confounding the fecal fat score, but yes, it should be elevated during an attack, (when compared to a "normal" situation.). Gallbladder problems can be sporadic, or they can be acute. It's possible to have attacks once a year, once a week, several times a day, or any other schedule.
If any organ protrudes out between your ribs during an attack, it's no wonder the pain is extreme. That's not good, to say the least. I think the main problem here is that a lot of docs don't like for someone to come to them with a "suggested" diagnosis in hand. IOW, if they didn't discover it themselves, they tend to stonewall any attempts to convince then to see the obvious.
This may just confuse the issue, but notice the comments about thickened gallbladder walls in this thread. Also notice how the doctors who responded, tended to "dance around the issue", without really answering the questions. (Which is not that surprising, in an internet setting, of course).
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/gastro/me ... 35939.html
Well, technically, your GI is correct. Morphine can be "hard" on the digestive system, if used in excess, and if used for longterm purposes. The risk is that it tends to slow down motility, and it can, (in some cases), lead to impaction in the colon, resulting in a life-threatening situation. In fact, a member of this board, (or maybe it was the previous board), had that exact problem, due to long-term use of opiates.
Consider this, though - what do they give you when you are recovering from major abdominal surgery? You guessed it - morphine. So how bad could it be, for short term use?
I have to disagree with your GI doc, if he claims that Levsin is significantly safer than morphine, in the treatment of IBS symptoms. They both slow down motility, and Levsin is contraindicated in cases where intestinal obstruction is suspected, (I think you mentioned previously that you suspected this), and in cases of an enlarged colon, (bloating certainly should qualify as an example of an enlarged colon). He sounds like a typical "chip-on-the-shoulder", "do-it-my-way-or-hit-the-highway" GI doc. <sigh>
Love,
Tex
Well, as my TV stand-in mentioned, (LOL), there could be other things confounding the fecal fat score, but yes, it should be elevated during an attack, (when compared to a "normal" situation.). Gallbladder problems can be sporadic, or they can be acute. It's possible to have attacks once a year, once a week, several times a day, or any other schedule.
If any organ protrudes out between your ribs during an attack, it's no wonder the pain is extreme. That's not good, to say the least. I think the main problem here is that a lot of docs don't like for someone to come to them with a "suggested" diagnosis in hand. IOW, if they didn't discover it themselves, they tend to stonewall any attempts to convince then to see the obvious.
This may just confuse the issue, but notice the comments about thickened gallbladder walls in this thread. Also notice how the doctors who responded, tended to "dance around the issue", without really answering the questions. (Which is not that surprising, in an internet setting, of course).
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/gastro/me ... 35939.html
Well, technically, your GI is correct. Morphine can be "hard" on the digestive system, if used in excess, and if used for longterm purposes. The risk is that it tends to slow down motility, and it can, (in some cases), lead to impaction in the colon, resulting in a life-threatening situation. In fact, a member of this board, (or maybe it was the previous board), had that exact problem, due to long-term use of opiates.
Consider this, though - what do they give you when you are recovering from major abdominal surgery? You guessed it - morphine. So how bad could it be, for short term use?
I have to disagree with your GI doc, if he claims that Levsin is significantly safer than morphine, in the treatment of IBS symptoms. They both slow down motility, and Levsin is contraindicated in cases where intestinal obstruction is suspected, (I think you mentioned previously that you suspected this), and in cases of an enlarged colon, (bloating certainly should qualify as an example of an enlarged colon). He sounds like a typical "chip-on-the-shoulder", "do-it-my-way-or-hit-the-highway" GI doc. <sigh>
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Cristi,
As an addendum to my post just above, I have to add that your mention of the reduction of estrogen supplementation, and the discontinuation of progesterone intake, just prior to the attacks, casts some doubt on the finger of suspicion pointing to the gallbladder. Normally, (as in the case of pregnancy, for example), higher levels of estrogen can cause the bile to be much thicker, thus increasing the tendency of gallstones to form. In addition, progesterone can inhibit the gallbladder's normal ability to contract, further increasing the likelihood of stone formation.
Therefore, unless I'm overlooking something here, your reduction of estrogen, and curtailment of progesterone supplementation should improve gallbladder function, not hamper it. I can see why your doctors are confounded. <sigh> The puzzle just gets more and more confusing.
Love,
Tex
As an addendum to my post just above, I have to add that your mention of the reduction of estrogen supplementation, and the discontinuation of progesterone intake, just prior to the attacks, casts some doubt on the finger of suspicion pointing to the gallbladder. Normally, (as in the case of pregnancy, for example), higher levels of estrogen can cause the bile to be much thicker, thus increasing the tendency of gallstones to form. In addition, progesterone can inhibit the gallbladder's normal ability to contract, further increasing the likelihood of stone formation.
Therefore, unless I'm overlooking something here, your reduction of estrogen, and curtailment of progesterone supplementation should improve gallbladder function, not hamper it. I can see why your doctors are confounded. <sigh> The puzzle just gets more and more confusing.
Love,
Tex
Hi Cristi,cludwig wrote:Hi All,
It always starts after dinner and builds until it is unbearable around 2am and stays that way till 6 or 7 am then usually completely disappears. This time it is less in the am but is not totally disappearing.
I was just reading the mayo clinic site about gallbladders and it says that skipping breakfast for some reason screws up the contractions of the gallbladder causing an attack. Perhaps it was the fasting before my procedure that pissed it off. If the skipping the breakfast thing is a big part of this then it explains why it started as a teenager because that's when I started not eating breakfast. It was a big circle kind of thing because I would be in so much pain the whole night that in the am I would be reluctant to eat anything because it was so blissful not to be in any pain. In the am on an empty stomach was the only time my gut ever felt 100% okay. I started thinking of eating as the enemy.
Anyway, I don't have any stones or sludge right now although I have had in the past. I have no fever or elevated white blood count and never have with any of these attacks before. No one is willing to say that my gallbladder is even an issue. I also have had that gallbladder test where they inject you to see if the gallbladder contracts and it did as normal. So I am stuck with an IBS label that I think is either incorrect or only half the picture.
Perhaps the gallbladder has its little fit and causes an IBS reaction. I don't think I am going to get anywhere with my GI. Their solution would be to remove ...I don't know if there is a treatment to help it function better. I see why they would not want to do surgery without any proof from a lab...so I feel helpless with this.
The pain is so bad I have to try the drugs...but I agree I would like to figure out what is really happening.
I am an oddball with food...I eat the same thing everyday. So, I am not reacting to any food ...the only thing that changed this week was I greatly reduced my estrogen and eliminated my progesterone due to my scary mammogram. At this moment I am thinking the fasting triggered it.
Love,
Cristi
Does it start immediately after dinner or a certain amount of time after dinner, 1/2 hour, hour or ???
I can see how skipping any meal would bring an attack on. My guess is that since you aren't releasing bile as often it gets a chance to build up and build up with more pressure. So perhaps even eating more often and making sure to include some fat at each meal might help. Oh and I understand the not eating thing, I usually played that card and it always seemed to make me feel worse. When I forced myself to eat even when I felt off it seemed to help improve what ever I was feeling.
IBS is only used when they can find no other issue that might be causing problems. Given what you've told us there are other issues that might cause you GI problems, bile acid being off is one of those things.
Sure your gallbladder can be off and cause an IBS like reaction, but in that case it is no longer IBS as per it's definition. Yeah, one of their solutions would be to remove it... please don't do this without a second or 3rd or 4th opinion. This again is symptom management and not health care.
"Hey doc, I keep poking my finger in my eye and it hurts my eye."
"Well, perhaps we should remove that finger, that'll fix it up."
"Sure thing doc, you're the expert."
Ok, it's not quite that bad, but that's the way I feel about medical practice nowadays. In fact that book I recommended brings a lot of this into the light, the book called "Ultra-Prevention" found here.
http://www.ultraprevention.com/book/excerpts.htm
Sorry I wasn't clear about asking about food and suplement intake. I don't think it's a food alergy per say, but for example say you ate a fattier meal for Dinner, and no or little fat for breakfast and lunch. I'd say to spread that fat more out through the day. If you took all your calcium in the morning I'd say to take your calcium more throughout the day. Etc. At least to see where that gets you.
Also, I remember you recently added a calcium supplement or something that had calcium. Was that a very recent addition, was this just before you started having problems or after or ???
Thanks,
Mike
Interesting Tex. So if that were the case then wouldn't the gallbladder, which was silent before be reacting/contracting more due to the change in progesterone? And since she also had estrogen that built up a bit of sludge that is now trying to push through? I can see how it would help to stop taking them, but since it was done recently perhaps that explains the recent pain as well.tex wrote:Cristi,
As an addendum to my post just above, I have to add that your mention of the reduction of estrogen supplementation, and the discontinuation of progesterone intake, just prior to the attacks, casts some doubt on the finger of suspicion pointing to the gallbladder. Normally, (as in the case of pregnancy, for example), higher levels of estrogen can cause the bile to be much thicker, thus increasing the tendency of gallstones to form. In addition, progesterone can inhibit the gallbladder's normal ability to contract, further increasing the likelihood of stone formation.
Therefore, unless I'm overlooking something here, your reduction of estrogen, and curtailment of progesterone supplementation should improve gallbladder function, not hamper it. I can see why your doctors are confounded. <sigh> The puzzle just gets more and more confusing.
Love,
Tex
Another thing for me and how bile might be related is my recent discovery in how bile flow/kidneys/gallbladder can have an effect on something else I have. Xanthomas on the eyelid. Here's a bit more about them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthelasma
Notice what is involved in this; fat and also bile/cholesterol. This again all goes back to my theories on MC. All those things are interrelated and they're out of balance in us. All these things are related, bile/cholesterol/Vitamin D/Cortisol, gut flora, food allergy/intollerance/balance. When one gets out of balance the others are messed up, only when all the systems are back to normal can we get our systems back in balance. In fact those things above throw other systems off as well, those systems will only ever come back in line when the ones above are addressed, unless that is one wants to cover up symptoms some more.
Mike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthelasma
Notice what is involved in this; fat and also bile/cholesterol. This again all goes back to my theories on MC. All those things are interrelated and they're out of balance in us. All these things are related, bile/cholesterol/Vitamin D/Cortisol, gut flora, food allergy/intollerance/balance. When one gets out of balance the others are messed up, only when all the systems are back to normal can we get our systems back in balance. In fact those things above throw other systems off as well, those systems will only ever come back in line when the ones above are addressed, unless that is one wants to cover up symptoms some more.
Mike
Oh and here you go, a new article from the Food Doc showing how gut flora and Celiac disease are interrealated.
http://thefooddoc.blogspot.com/search/l ... 20bacteria
http://thefooddoc.blogspot.com/search/l ... 20bacteria
Mike,
I doubt that Cristi took enough supplemental hormones to significantly affect her gallbladder performance, so the discontinuation of the hormones shouldn't make a large difference, either, but I could be wrong. During pregnancy, the levels of estrogen and progesterone practically skyrocket.
The blog you cite above, about a swedish report, introduces an interesting concept. If the production of altered short chain fatty acids, (SCFAs), is responsible for the onset of celiac disease, and the altered SCFAs are the result of inappropriate gut flora activity, then it would seem logical to assume that if the gut flora were brought back into compliance, (by the use of probiotics, or whatever), the gut would be allowed to heal, and the patient could resume eating a "normal" diet, (one that includes gluten).
Since this is not the case, then apparently the ingestion of wheat, (or rye, or barley), corrupts the activity of the gut flora, causing the altered SCFAs. This still doesn't resolve the issue, however, because it leaves the unanswered question of why only about one percent of the population has celiac disease, rather than the roughly 40% of the general population who are genetically susceptible. If they're all eating gluten, why does only one out of 40 develop an altered gut flora population, which results in the production of the SCFAs which cause celiac disease.
Tex
I doubt that Cristi took enough supplemental hormones to significantly affect her gallbladder performance, so the discontinuation of the hormones shouldn't make a large difference, either, but I could be wrong. During pregnancy, the levels of estrogen and progesterone practically skyrocket.
The blog you cite above, about a swedish report, introduces an interesting concept. If the production of altered short chain fatty acids, (SCFAs), is responsible for the onset of celiac disease, and the altered SCFAs are the result of inappropriate gut flora activity, then it would seem logical to assume that if the gut flora were brought back into compliance, (by the use of probiotics, or whatever), the gut would be allowed to heal, and the patient could resume eating a "normal" diet, (one that includes gluten).
Since this is not the case, then apparently the ingestion of wheat, (or rye, or barley), corrupts the activity of the gut flora, causing the altered SCFAs. This still doesn't resolve the issue, however, because it leaves the unanswered question of why only about one percent of the population has celiac disease, rather than the roughly 40% of the general population who are genetically susceptible. If they're all eating gluten, why does only one out of 40 develop an altered gut flora population, which results in the production of the SCFAs which cause celiac disease.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
-
harvest_table
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 1509
- Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Fergus Falls, Minnesota
Cristi,
Hope your able to sleep tonight. Thinking about you.
Love,
Joanna
Hope your able to sleep tonight. Thinking about you.
Love,
Joanna
THE GLUTEN FILES
http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/
http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/
Hi Everyone,
Went into ER at midnight and got home here at 7am. Contrast CT scan showed very enlarged gallbladder and thick walls. They were ready to do surgery but I said no....I need a second opinion. Am heading to the GI who did endoscopy on Mon...just on phone with him and he said on Mon it was perfectly normal and that this is not a known risk or side effect of this procedure. But he will look at the scan and give second opinion. Am having the test this afternoon to see if it contracts.
I certainly don't want to have it out....but the pain is too hard to deal with and I don't know when or if it will go away.
I guess I really don't know how well people actually fare after having it removed and given my experience with MD I don't think they are the ones to know....they do the surgery and they are done with you. Very stressful decision to make..to say the least.
Love,
Cristi
Went into ER at midnight and got home here at 7am. Contrast CT scan showed very enlarged gallbladder and thick walls. They were ready to do surgery but I said no....I need a second opinion. Am heading to the GI who did endoscopy on Mon...just on phone with him and he said on Mon it was perfectly normal and that this is not a known risk or side effect of this procedure. But he will look at the scan and give second opinion. Am having the test this afternoon to see if it contracts.
I certainly don't want to have it out....but the pain is too hard to deal with and I don't know when or if it will go away.
I guess I really don't know how well people actually fare after having it removed and given my experience with MD I don't think they are the ones to know....they do the surgery and they are done with you. Very stressful decision to make..to say the least.
Love,
Cristi
When the gallbladder is removed the bile just dumps into the GI tract directly instead of being stored for when needed.
If you do get the surgury you will most likely need some sort of binding agent for the bile acid, otherwise you'll get IBS like symptoms daily. That is unless you have the gut flora and ilium (sp) that can handle it. You may or may not have trouble digesting fats, but I'd spread the fat out more evenly throughout the day and not eat too fatty of a meal.
I did find someone with a person experience with regards to gallbladder removal. Of course I'm posting it not to scare you from getting the surgery, but it does have some info about what helped and what didn't.
I'm suprised that your gallbladder enlarged that quickly, have they said what might have caused this? Surely this is important to know. I can only think of a few, some sort of virus/bacterial infection (but it's a strong bugger to be able to handle all the bile acid), some sort of blockage of the exit to the gallbladder or the tracts leading through the pancreas (sp) or into the small intestine, somes sort of cancer/tumor ???, bile acid composition (not normal composition), or some sort of liver/pancreas problem. Boy I really wish I had an answer, though I've research some in this area I haven't quite gotten everything down in this area.
I really wish I knew of a good GI doctor around here to recommend that you see, most I've met or heard about thus far haven't been very good. :( Well, at least what I would consider to be good.
You might try sending an email off to TheFoodDoc, he's been pretty good at answering my questions and responding in general.
You are definitly in my prayers.
Mike
If you do get the surgury you will most likely need some sort of binding agent for the bile acid, otherwise you'll get IBS like symptoms daily. That is unless you have the gut flora and ilium (sp) that can handle it. You may or may not have trouble digesting fats, but I'd spread the fat out more evenly throughout the day and not eat too fatty of a meal.
I did find someone with a person experience with regards to gallbladder removal. Of course I'm posting it not to scare you from getting the surgery, but it does have some info about what helped and what didn't.
I'm suprised that your gallbladder enlarged that quickly, have they said what might have caused this? Surely this is important to know. I can only think of a few, some sort of virus/bacterial infection (but it's a strong bugger to be able to handle all the bile acid), some sort of blockage of the exit to the gallbladder or the tracts leading through the pancreas (sp) or into the small intestine, somes sort of cancer/tumor ???, bile acid composition (not normal composition), or some sort of liver/pancreas problem. Boy I really wish I had an answer, though I've research some in this area I haven't quite gotten everything down in this area.
I really wish I knew of a good GI doctor around here to recommend that you see, most I've met or heard about thus far haven't been very good. :( Well, at least what I would consider to be good.
You might try sending an email off to TheFoodDoc, he's been pretty good at answering my questions and responding in general.
You are definitly in my prayers.
Mike
More than you ever wanted to know about the bile system:
http://www.gastroresource.com/GITextboo ... efault.htm
Section 2.2 found here on this page sounds like it fits...
http://www.gastroresource.com/GITextboo ... 3/13-2.htm
Gallbladder Cancer
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00425.html
http://www.gastroresource.com/GITextboo ... efault.htm
Section 2.2 found here on this page sounds like it fits...
http://www.gastroresource.com/GITextboo ... 3/13-2.htm
Gallbladder Cancer
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00425.html