Anyone tried the Probiotic VSL#3?

[tex]

Mike,

That's a good way to look at the issue. The old "what's in it for me" concept is one of the strongest performance motivators in existence. It works wonders in the business world, personal relationships, and virtually everywhere else. There's no reason why it shouldn't apply on a microscopic basis, as well. Good thinking.

Tex

[mle_ii]

Mike,

I haven't had much time to post but wanted to let you know that I have been following this thread with great interest. The bacteria issue is a big piece of the puzzle, I think. So why do you think that the bacteria levels drop after several weeks of discontinuing the VSL#3 (as claimed by the manufacturer)? And for those of us with MC who apparently develop antibodies to our good bacteria, wouldn't a constant "battle" be set off by replacing the good bacteria daily?

Levels droping is a good question. A few guesses would be the reasons why they might have went away in the first place:
Poor diet -
* not enough fiber, or the right kinds such as fruits, onions, garlic, etc. This what the good bacteria feed on.
* too much sugar or simple carbs - bad bacteria seem to thrive better on this
* fat/oil type consumed - some theories here, but the oils that are seen as good/healthy actually promote some opening of the tight junctions, the oils that are seen as bad/unhealthy promote the closing of tight junctions. So perhaps closing them too tight doesn't allow tollerance to happen as your immune system doesn't get to sample as much and thus build a tollerance. But tight junctions open too far promote what we know is bad.
* Perhaps some other foods are at work here as well.
Low acid - well, this would allow the formation of bacteria that aren't as bile/acid resistant, most seem to be bad. It also appears that some of the good bacteria are better able to do their work at the correct acidity levels.
Low bile - blocked or not working well gallbladders. This would cause more of the bad bacteria to grow. bile might be a better environment for the good bacteria.
Liver damage or overloaded liver - from what I've read, this is a pretty big deal, gotta learn more here. But since the liver regulates bile composition and immunity you can guess what problems might occur here.
Autoimmune problems - If the immune system is constantly in an on/fight position I would guess the bacteria would have a hard time growing here.
Time/growth rates - here is another thing, while taking the probiotic even in the best environment, it's a hell of a place to grow. Though the probiotic has profound effects in this concentration, it can only adhear and grow at a limited rate, so perhaps in the short term after stopping the ammounts would drop quite a bit, but perhaps after a while of having the right environment they can grow to the numbers that they are supposed to.
OTHER: Well given what we know so far, I'm very certain there's a lot we don't know. So who really knows in the end. :)

It may not be enough, I think, to ingest good bacteria. Do we also need to kill off the bad bacteria that "overgrows" as the good bacteria is killed off by the antibodies. It seems that some antibiotics preferentially kill off the bad bacteria......like Cipro or Rifaximin, for example. I saw an article that claimed that azithromycin (Z-Pack) also killed off bad gut bacteria, which would go along with our experience here that, if one must take an antibiotic, azithro is one of the better ones for MCers.

Yeah, that might just be part of the equation. I know that the bacteria in VSL#3 do have their own form of bacteriocide, so they do kill off bad bacteria as well. The problems also with antibiotics is that they promote super bugs, this has got to make the task of good bacteria killing off the bad even more difficult. I don't know enough about which antibiotics kill off good vs bad bacteria. The only thing I do know is that I won't take it unless absolutely nessesary. There are other ways of killing off bacteria that don't involve such extreem measures. Heh, a thought just occured to me, perhaps it's like how some gardeners use ladybugs or wasps instead of chemicals to kill of bugs.

The article you cited was interesting. One can't always extrapolate "in vitro" (dough in the laboratory) studies to "in vivo" (what would actually happen inside the body) studies, but I was intrigued to see that reference to zonulin. Zonulin is another big piece of the puzzle - the "leaky gut piece".

Yeah, exactly, there are too many variables involved in vivo for studies to get at what they are trying to find. Bug in vivo is really the only thing we care about as end users.

Just thinking out loud here. And wondering if I should try some VSL#3. I am very sensitive to casein, however.

Polly

P.S. BTW, why did you decide to switch from the bifido probiotic to the VSL#3, if bifido was what you were missing? Just curious. Also, are you still having normal BMs?

I switched because I had a hunch that it was the right thing to do. I figured that if it were the bacteria I was really reacting to then this would surely show me. That this would help repopulate the gut with the right bacteria faster than the other. It would also have a better effect when in a larger amount, more anti-inflamitory production, more immune tollerance, more production of the vitamins I was low in, more production of the short chain fatty acids that promote gut growth, more fuel production for the body, less chance for bad bacteria to adhere. Everything I've read about this bacteria says it's the right thing to do for me.

Though I wonder what effect having the higher population of the lacto bacteria would do given that I already have enough. My guess that given the number of bifido in relation that it wouldn't matter in the end.

As far as normal BMs. Yep, still doing great. I felt a little off on Saturday, but for the majority of the time I've been feeling great. Haven't noticed any low energy. I think I have about 10 more days (of the 30) left of this probiotic, so it means I'm to the 20 days that I swore I read somewhere it took for some folks to see a difference.

It sure is crazy all the stuff I learned here, never would have thought in a million years that all that is going on in my GI, and that bacteria is good for the body as well.

Mike[/quote]

[Polly]

Mike!

This is such a critical and timely issue that I'm going to start a new post. You will be thrilled with what I did today. I emailed Dr. Scot Lewey (food blog) and posed a lot of the questions that we have raised here about bacteria, probiotics, antibiotics, zonulin, Dr. Fine's research, etc.

He immediately wrote me back a long and VERY meaty email that begins to tie it all together. I also asked him for personal advice - i.e. should I receive a treatment course of antibiotics, use a probiotic, etc.? I hope to share his email with our family here on this website, but I am going to ask his permission first - since he wrote it to me as a medical colleague. Meanwhile, I think you will especially appreciate a quote from his email - which I will put in the new post.

Polly

[mle_ii]

Here's an update to VSL#3. I mentioned this in a thread about my visit to the GI Dr.

Anyway, guess what he perscribed to me next? I couldn't believe my ears. VSL#3. LOL Supposedly come October 1st, according to the rep he talked to, this will be perscribable. Wow! What's this world coming to, first the natreopaths were insane for having their patients take Vitamins, now regular Drs tell you to supplement, next I have a GI Dr that tests for bacterial overgrowth (something that only natreopaths used to do) and now my GI Dr perscribes a probiotic. Insanity. LOL At leat their starting to come to their senses. Slowly but surely.

Mike

[mle_ii]

FWIW I couldn't find anything on the VSL website about this being available for perscription so I'm wondering if it was wishful thinking on the reps or GI Drs part. Guess I'll have to keep an eye on this.

[mle_ii]

Ugg, just talked to a rep and they said it's not available by perscription and won't be. So I guess I have to buy this on my own if I want to continue using it. Really wish I'd kept a better diary of my results with VSL #3 as I'm thinking about buying it again.

[gowest]

Hi Mike,

It's been a few years since your last post on VSL #3 and I was just wondering if you continue to take it, and what your conclusions were after the 20 days or so that you documented here.

My new GI doc gave me some of the capsules and I'm going to introduce it VERY slowly; I think I did it too fast previously (last week)!

Thanks
Ashley