Adrenal support is maintaining remission, Cortef

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bobh
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Post by bobh »

Wow, for some reason I wasn't getting E-mail letting me know there were new entries on this thread - or I would responded earlier.
Reggie wrote:cortisol

8am, 8 (depressed, normal is 13-24)
11am 7 (normal 5-10)
4pm 2 (depressed 3-8)
11pm <.03 (depressed 1-4)

My DHEA is normal, 7 (normal is 3-10)

I'm not in to any of the adrenal stages of failure yet..
Yes you are. And you mentioned the symptoms earlier. Those results they give people need to be INTERPRETED. The actual labs often avoid saying too much when interpreting labs - they just give you the result, and hope a MD assumes the liability for telling you what the results mean.

Maybe you get the idea yours is "normal" because your DHEA quantity is normal - but really it is a HIGH DHEA TO CORTISOL RATIO. That is important to understand. And it isn't real simple to explain. You take the cortisol readings at the 2 middle points of the day (noon and afternoon) and average them. Compare that number to the DHEA and you get the "ratio".

Diagnostech's usually sends a PDF, maybe you could E-mail those to me, but I see a classic low morning cortisol level. That tells me you have passed the "alarm" phases 1->3 and entered at least stage 4 of Adrenal failure, check out how this chart shows the low morning level, when it is supposed to be highest - that is why you don't feel good : http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%204.html

You might want to review some of the links on my earlier posts. YOU RAN OUT AND GOT THIS TEST BECAUSE SOMETHING MADE SENSE. You spotted some truth, something that would "open a door" to getting fixed. You were right.
About 5 weeks ago, my mornings went to hell. I wake up early, anxious and depressed.
Reggie wrote: T3 is .38, normal, as is my thyroid microsomal Ab,SIgA-what ever that is!

My TSH, T3 & T4 were normal in a blood test 11/11/06, as was my cortisol.
I want to know what the RANGE was on the Free T3 test, both for the saliva one, and the blood test. You want your FT3 in the upper 1/3 of normal (if you have symptoms, and you do have symptoms).

thyroid microsomal Ab - I believe this means you don't have antibodies. (Hashimoto's). Send your PDF doc's to me.

I am going to be on the road the rest of today, but will follow up on this with you.
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Post by bobh »

Reggie - I see this thread just started a 3rd page. Go back to the bottom of page 2, don't overlook my answer to you there...
cludwig wrote: I had mild hyperthyroid problems with a low TSH. ...Love,
Cristi
Cristi, sometimes the blood tests show "hyperthyroid" and you can feel "hyperthyroid" because the T3 is not able to get into the cells (due to low adrenal Cortisol) and so the thyroid hormones "pool" or "build up" in the blood, and you get high readings. You have symptoms of bad adrenals, and should do the test Reggie did, see my links higher up on this thread.

I am going to paste a link to a page that states this fact:
Since cortisol, a corticosteroid hormone, helps cell receptors receive thyroid hormones from the blood to the cells, low cortisol can result in high amounts of thyroid hormones to build in the blood, making your free T3 and/or free T4 labs look high in range with continuing hypo symptoms, or causing hyper-like symptoms on doses of Armour which shouldn’t produce those symptoms.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/
I have low body temperature and low blood pressure
Low temps = not enough T3 getting into the cells.
Check out this link: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/temperature/
I have been doing that for 3 months, and found this to be true.

As it says, you take temps throughout the day, average them, and get a SINGLE NUMBER for that ONE DAY and plot it on a graph. http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#directions

My temps fluctuated all over the map at first (I am not talking about different points in the day). After I started to support my adrenals (as noted earlier on this thread) the temps were in a tighter range, not as much fluctuation. As I introduced the Armour's thyroid, and it was able to get into the cells thanks to adrenal support, my temps started to rise up from the freezer, approaching normal, but still a bit low.

Charting the temps DOES WORK and for those who need more data before deciding to spend the money on labs, it is a free and workable method.

Low blood pressure is classic for low adrenal cortisol levels.
Check out Dr Rind's chart of Adrenal vs Thyroid symptoms
Tends to run low, e.g., from 80/50 at the low end to 110/70 at the high end
http://www.drrind.com/scorecardmatrix.asp

The low cortisol alone will give you hypo-thyroid symptoms, you need to update your lab tests per this link: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/re ... d-labwork/ [/quote]
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Post by Reggie »

Bobh, my test results came back with the box that graphs out the DHEA/cortisol levels, and my ratio landed in the 'reference' area rather than any of the 7 different stage boxes. That's why I said I (hopefully) am not yet in the stages. God knows I can't interpret this stuff. I see from your stage four link that my cortisol is in that style, but I just have too much DHEA.

I can't quite figure out how to get the PDFs from Diagnostechs to a public place for sharing and I don't know how to email them to you. Ideas?

Did I mention that my chronic pelvic pain from trigger points (myofascial pain) also escalated when this all happened? I've found a couple other people now on a fatigue board who say T3 is a big factor in pain.

Here's a post from a CFS researcher that's pretty interesting. His name is Rich Van Konyenburg. There's a lot of buzz about the methylation cycle now in some CFS circles.

"I just want to mention that in CFS it appears that in many cases the issue is not with the adrenals themselves, but rather higher up in the HPA axis, at the level of the pituitary or the hypothalamus or even higher in the brain. The evidence for this is that when a Cortrosyn
test is given to a PWC, the adrenals usually respond by secreting cortisol, showing that they are capable of doing so if properly stimulated.

Also, there is a published study showing that the
adrenals actually shrunk in size in many PWCs. This most likely occurred because they were not receiving enough drive by ACTH from the pituitary.

As I wrote a couple of days ago, it now appears that low secretion of ACTH can be explained by glutathione depletion in the pituitary. ACTH is synthesized as part of a longer protein called proopiomelanocortin . The N-terminal fragment of this protein contains cysteine residues, and that means that its proper synthesis is
sensitive to whether or not there is enough glutathione in the cells that make it. If not, it will not be properly made, and I suspect that the production of ACTH will be hindered. That could certainly explain why the HPA axis doesn't work properly in CFS.

I think that the adrenals have gotten a bad rap in many cases of CFS.
True, there probably are some in which the adrenals themselves are fatigued and might benefit from being helped with things like vitamin C, pantothenic acid, and extracts of pig adrenals. But I suspect that in many cases of CFS, the problem is elsewhere in the HPA axis.

How do you build up glutathione? As I've said before, a few people have been able to do it by supplementing either glutathione itself or the amino acids that go into making it, such as with the nondenatured or the so-called undenatured whey protein supplements. But most don't
seem to be able to build glutathione so that it stays up on a permanent basis with no further supplementation by using this approach, and some can't tolerate these supplements.

As I've said before, I think the example from autism is pointing out the way to do this, and that is to deal with the methylation cycle.
Wehen that's operating properly, the glutathione level is found to be restored to normal without directly trying to build it up. In other words, the methylation cycle block is what's holding the glutathione down."
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Post by Beth »

Hi Cristi,

I saw on your post that your naturopath wants to give you a bunch of supplements to treat the adrenal fatigue, and I just wanted to alert you about that. I was taking a whole bunch of things for adrenal fatigue until a few weeks ago, and I could NOT stop that horrible flare until I went off of all of them. Since I stopped taking them, I have started to have completely normal BMs. I would highly recommend proceeding very cautiously with the supplements since it could tip you into a horrible bout of D.

This week I'm going to get my blood tested to see if there's anything off with my thyroid. It will give me some more info about whether I need to be taking thyroid meds and possibly adrenal meds. I'm very hesitant to go the meds route, but I have all of the symptoms you all are talking about: very low blood pressure, cold all the time, incredibly fatigued, lack of energy, and confirmed adrenal fatigue diagnosis. The fatigue seems particularly bad right now, so I want to see if it's connected to my thryoid as well. Will keep you all updated.

Best,
Beth
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Post by bobh »

Reggie wrote: I see from your stage four link that my cortisol is in that style, but I just have too much DHEA.
The important one is the trend on that graph, that is your cortisol levels at those points in the day. the DHEA is just a "raw material" for the production of cortisol. You feel bad because of what that graph measured.

Start at the top of this thread with the viewpoint that your adrenals are screwed, and figure out if you want to treat them or not.
I can't quite figure out how to get the PDFs from Diagnostechs to a public place for sharing and I don't know how to email them to you. Ideas?
attach it to an email to bob@bob-harvey.com
"I just want to mention that in CFS it appears that in many cases the issue is not with the adrenals themselves, but rather higher up in the HPA axis, at the level of the pituitary or the hypothalamus
Yep. I think I quoted Dr william jeferies earlier on this thread, he wrote
"safe uses of cortisol" in 1981, revised a few tiimes since. He has said this for years, and Dr Teitelbaum says the same thing, quoting Jeferies.

Tietelbaum (Fatigued to Fantastic) specializes in fatigue patients, and within the first 10 pages of the book he quotes jefferies, cuts to the chase, and says nothing works better than Cortef to replace the adrenal cortisol, and don't bother with the over the counter stuff. I found that to be true
How do you build up glutathione? ....
What we are really talking about here, is how to fix the HPA Axis.
For me, I simply don't think you can. And my initial focus is to feel better, and as long as the pituitary isn't sending adequate signals to the thyroid and adrenal, you basically step in and do it your self. Cortef and Armours, per the links earlier on this thread.

If you want to follow up more on hypo pituitary stuff, here's a link to a forum by an expert that I respect: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/co ... php?t=6558

But at the end of the day, these people take hormones to live. they don't fix the HPA Axis, maybe that can be done, but I'm not holding my breath
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Post by bobh »

Beth wrote:This week I'm going to get my blood tested to see if there's anything off with my thyroid. It will give me some more info about whether I need to be taking thyroid meds and possibly adrenal meds.
Make sure they test for FREE T3 not just "total" T3

Most Drs will tell you that if it is in the normal range you are OK. With your symptoms, I am going to tell you that if it is not in the upper 1/3 of normal, you are not OK. At that point, the decision is if you want to feel that way the rest of your life, or if you prefer to take what will be an essentially replacement dose of Armour's thyroid. It is helping me immensly, my extremities are no longer cold, etc.

don't let anyone tell you that you only need one grain. YOu start at a very small dose and work up gradually, over a period of months, but if you don't work up to 3 grains it will do nothing but suppress your TSH as per this thread http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/co ... .php?t=726

and that they see if you have Hashimoto's by checking for both antibodies mentioned here:
Antibodies are proteins produced by your immune system in response to a problem. If your labs come back above-range for thyroid antibodies, you can have an autoimmune thyroid disease, also called thyroiditis or Hashimoto’s, which means your thyroid is being attacked.

There are two forms–one set targeting your thyroid peroxidase (an enzyme that is important in the production of your thyroid hormones) and the other targeting your thyroglobulin (a protein carrier for your thyroid hormones). It is not uncommon for one to be in range, and the other to far out of range. The latter fact is why you need BOTH tested.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/re ... d-labwork/
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Post by bobh »

OK, before I start, this may not have a lot to do with colitis. I halted my remission with a short run of Prednisone and followed with Entocort - and as noted above later realized my adrenals weren't making much cortisol, which is a cortico-steriod similar to Entocort, or Prednisone. So we of course are getting a bit off topic from Colitis, and I am not saying this is going to halt a flare up - but for me it seems to be helping to maintain a remission. Time will tell. But if your metabolism is whacked (that IS the adrenals and thyroid) you are not going to feel very "alive".

You are lucky to have caught this so soon, my mornings went to hell about 20 years ago, further declinded to chronic colitis 15 years ago, and I am now convinced my body had very little cortisol... I had so many symptoms of low adrenals.
Reggie wrote:About 5 weeks ago, my mornings went to hell. I wake up early, anxious and depressed. If I get back to sleep I have nightmares. Around noon I return to what my wife calls the Real Reg. My pelvic pain used to start around 3 in the afternoon. Now it often starts before I get up.
OK, compare that statement to how your Cortisol levels were measured on the day you did the samples:

Image

If you look through the 7 stages of adrenal fatigue from the links I posted earlier, this is past the "alarm" stage of increasing cortisol under stress, can't do it anymore, and failing. It is worse than stage 4 http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%204.html
And not quite as bad as stage 5 http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%205.html though your night cortisol is worse than either. that will prevent restfull sleep, if it is too high or too low at night.

Your evening level is as bad as this worst one: http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%207.html

Now as far as your DHEA ratio - true it fits within the "normal" zone, but it is tending toward the lower "stage 5" territory, and that is sort of what your Cortisol is doing. Your Cortisol is not EXACTLY like the examples on that site, but is clearly crawling like a worm below where it should be - especially that critical morning range.

Image

My brother has had low adrenal symptoms for years, he recently did his test with the same lab, his was a classic stage 4. he started Cortef 6 weeks ago, worked up GRADUALLY to the levels in that Dr Peatfield article (20mg, then upped it a bit as needed) and he feels a huge difference.

My only concern is that this has only been going on with you for 5 weeks. Most people I see with graphs like this have longer term symptoms. Part of me hopes you just "bounce out of it" but on the other hand, you may be where I was in 1986 after my terrible drop dead flu... And I would love to have handled it then, even if it meant my adrenals needed replacement dose and take pills every day, every 4 hours. Would have been better than the alternative.
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Post by bobh »

Reggie wrote:and intense fatigue and brain fog.
Some of this is adrenal, some is thyroid. I think I mentioned in a post to Mike, that low thyroid will hammer your adrenals. they work together to maintain metabolism. When one is down, the other works extra hard. One of the first things the adrenals can't make enough of is the Cortisol, but they crank out adrenalin and other things that add to the anxiety and depression, whereas Cortisol helps you deal with stress (unless it is in the "alarm" phase and abnormally high - you get panic - anxiety from that too).

What I am leading to here - your thyroid labs are in trouble, and that could be why your adrenals "couldn't take it anymore"

Image

You have the fatigue symptoms, so your FT3 should be in the upper 1/3 of normal, and it is below the mid point of normal. I spent decades looking at descriptions of thyroid symptoms, thinking I found the answer, and my labs were always "within normal" but tending low. Now I am treating my thyroid - at 51 years of age I am tired of waiting to feel better. I am feeling better as I work up to a "replacement dose" on Armour's, gradually, up to 3 grains (60mg of Armour is a grain).

When the TSH is above normal, the saliva labs tend to be REALLY High. In other words, the Saliva test will show a high TSH, but when they get that high, it is somewhat exaggerated. But it is obviously higher than a normal TSH. A high TSH means the pituitary is begging for more thyroid hormone. And yours is begging, but it isn't as high as it looks - but that does confirm that you are hypo-thyroid. And the fact of a high TSH pretty much rules out a pituitary issue, you are barking out the orders for more, but the order isn't being filled.

In your Email you said that your Nov 2006 blood test TSH was .78 on a scale of .5-.55 That scale is different that what I am used to seeing - had to scratch my head there for a while. Usually they say a TSH over "3" is abnormal. But if your top of normal was .55 then .78 is significantly higher, and confirms that your body is asking for more T3 and not getting it. I would do a full replacement dose (working up to it GRADUALLY AND SPREAD IT OUT EVERY 4 HOURS)

If you took 1/2 a replacement dose, the body senses it in the blood and lowers it's TSH request to the thyroid. And you sort of end up where you started. This isn't a road you can walk 1/2 way. A lot of the patients that come to our adrenal-thyroid forum found us because they are on 1/3 of a replacement dose, the Dr wont' raise it, and they feel terrible.

You don't have antibodies (although this test didn't check for both of them, just the common one). And sometimes the saliva test misses the antibodies, I would ask for it on a blood test, both antibodies, just to rule out Hashimoto's (which I have, as does Marsha, Art Teacher). The reason it is important to rule out Hashimoto's , is that it is sort of reversible if you maintain a replacement dose of Armour's, the TSH gets lowered, and the antibody attack on the thyroid can be essentially halted. But if you don't know it's happening... I wondered for over a decade why my thyroid area often felt inflamed. It was under attack, still is, I can feel it as I type - I am just working up to the replacement dose of thyroid right now.

Did you know that Armour's thyroid has been on the market over 100 years? People were more likely to be accurately diagnosed with low thyroid in the 40s and 50's as the Dr's listened to symptoms like "fatigue - cold extremities - can't concentrate - hair falling out - nails getting thin & brittle" etc. Now they pretty much focus on labs, they used to focus on symptoms. the thyroid pioneer Broda Barnes preferred Armour's, it has T3 and T4 and is a natural product. Most MD's today want to prescribe synthetic T4 alone. But some people can't convert T4 to T3.

T4 is the "storage version" and has 4 iodine molecules. Your T4 is also low, and we like to see that at least at the middle of normal - but the T3 is the most important lab. Many Dr's are obsessed with TSH, but it MISSES so many patients (not you) who truly are hypothyroid.

In closing, your pituitary is working fine. You mentioned getting an ACTH check done (that is a pituitary hormone to tell adrenal cortex to make more Cortisol). There is a "stimulation test" to check that, and that would be to determine if you have Primary adrenal insufficiency (problem is with the adrenals themselves, or they have become fatigued due to prolonged stress - illness, mental, physical, whatever). Or due to low thyroid for too long.

Secondary AI is when the HPA axis is off, as we discussed. You had this happen after severe illness, but still I kind of suspect your pituitary is OK with that high TSH. Besides, there isn't much you can do for a pituitary but take the hormones that end up low (Adrenal, thyroid, and occasionally people need the other ones, testosterone, etc.)

If I had your symptoms and labs, I would start with the Cortef, little baby dose of 1/4 of a 10mg pill. Follow the links above, you do that for 3 days, this process is VERY SLOW and gradual. If you don't do it slow - it wont work and you will feel very strange. That is what happened to me 2 years ago before I got educated.
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Post by mle_ii »

Ok, a few things since we last talked have me wondering again. Why the issue of low adrenals? Why low thyroid? What's wrong and what is our body trying to tell us?

What's interesting is that a few of the items mentioned earlier, glutathione and pantothenic acid (mentioned by reggie), are ones that my body is low in as found by blood tests. Again, why? What is depleting them in my body?

A recent book I picked up about autoimmune diseases and what the author think's is the cause of many of the autoimmune immune diseases, and what I see in my self, what chemicals that are involved that are depleted, what systems that are involved that seem stressed it has me wondering if he might be onto something. That thing is basically the chemicals/heavy metals/toxins that we have ingested, breathed in or touched that are now in our bodies.

That these things deplete the very things that I am low in, and effect the same systems. And that it seems my body is trying to rid itself of something has me wondering if this might be part of it. So along with some testing for autoimmune, thyroid, adrenal, I'm thinking I should test for heavy metals, chemicals, toxins as well.

In fact he also goes on to say that he believes that a lot of allergies are caused by the same thing. That these toxins break down our immune system and we end up getting alergic to everything.

The book, for those interested, is called "What your doctor may not tell you about Autoimmune Disorders" by Stephen B Edelson and Deborah Mitchell.

Bob, so who are the current "gurus" on Adrenals and/or Thyroid? I've seen various names thus far but I'd like to read more.

Thanks,
Mike
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Post by mle_ii »

Reggie wrote:Here's a post from a CFS researcher that's pretty interesting. His name is Rich Van Konyenburg. There's a lot of buzz about the methylation cycle now in some CFS circles.
Hi Reggie, where'd you find this?

Thanks,
Mike
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Post by cludwig »

Hi Everyone,

I am at the point where I have all these pieces that are off but I can't seem to form a complete picture.

I go to an endocrinologist (3 actually) and they all laugh at the saliva and urine tests that my naturopath has done that says I have adrenal fatigue. The blood work that they did show a mild low TSH (hyper) and put me on 10mg methimazole. In Dec my T3 and T4 were too high so they lowered the dose to 5 mg. At that time I was on a good dose of estradiol and progesterone, but when the breast cancer possibility came up I panicked and dropped the female hormones to a much lower dose and was fine for a few weeks and then the anxiety and craziness returned.

I feel frozen...as Beth says I am afraid to treat the adrenals all by myself when the endocrinologists are so dismissive of this.

When I listen to the naturopaths compared with the endocrinologists, I feel like the naturopaths make the most sense as the endo never listens to my symptoms...just looks strictly at the labs.

So, Bob...are you treating yourself ( which I completely get given my experiences with endos) or have you found an endo or naturopath to help cause my naturopath can't prescribe the thyroid pills.

Mike....I had a toxin test done as well (naturopath) and I was high for several heavy metals and low in a lot of minerals....but it was done through a hair sample as he said a blood test isn't as accurate.

How do you all navigate this as I can't get the two sides to play nice together and help me figure this out?

I am going to order a couple of the books mentioned as well. Thanks everyone.

Love,
Cristi
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Post by bobh »

IMHO, it comes down to checking the dipstick and seeing if you are a quart low. People with these symptoms need to do a 24 hour Cortisol test (saliva, not blood test) per the links above.

And I would also do some blood-work, the main thing is the Free T3 being in the upper 1/3 of its range if you have symptoms (the fatigue, cold extremities, etc mentioned above). And check for those 2 antibodies, because if you have them the other blood tests are rather unreliable - and with Hashi a person would be well - advised to get on a replacement dose of Armour's to avoid having their thyroid totally destroyed by the antibodies during their lifetime.
mle_ii wrote:Ok, a few things since we last talked have me wondering again. Why the issue of low adrenals? Why low thyroid? What's wrong and what is our body trying to tell us?
It is what it is.

And it isn't really a "thinking thing". I don't know that I will ever understand the reason behind my low functioning adrenals and thyroid, but I guarantee you I felt like garbage, fatigued, EVEN AFTER TOTALLY NORMAL BM FOR 3 MONTHS, because my adrenals and thyroid were toast, as proven by labs results in January. And the fact I feel better as I work up to "replacement doses" of Cortisol and the T3-T4 found in Armours so that these systems can take a breather (may have to be for life, I will test it in about 6 months, for life is OK if need be) is just another confirmation. It is what it is.
Bob, so who are the current "gurus" on Adrenals and/or Thyroid? I've seen various names thus far but I'd like to read more.
For my money, Janie knows more than anyone else. She has read extensively for decades, suffered from bad medical care, and lived to talk about it. Val, who also is a volunteer, has studied 15 books on Adrenals and lived with the symptoms for 30 years, and has moderated forums for years before the current web site - with 10's of thousands of posts. She is up to 5,000 responses this year alone on the site that is only one year old http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/
And as I posted above, the first book I would get is by Dr Peatfield http://featherstone.bravehost.com/thyro ... renal.html who studied directly under the thyroid pioneer Dr Broda Barnes.

Next would be "Safe Uses of Cortisol" by Jefereys http://www.ccthomas.com/details.cfm?P_I ... 0398075002

but if you follow the data on that first site, and their recommended reading, and forums http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/community/ you will get the gold they have already sifted out of tons of books. These people have walked the walk, they have a lot of miles on their tires.
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Post by mle_ii »

I know what you mean Cristi, I have an appt with an endocrinologist that came highly recommended this thursday, but I'm already not looking forward to it. Why is that? Well he looked at my labs and thinks there's nothing wrong. What? But clearly there is and clearly the labs say that something is off. Ugg! I'm going anyway, I'm sure I'm going to get pissed off once again, but I'm going to go anyway to see why he thinks I'm "ok".

Oh, and which metals where high? Did you every go through a process of chelation to get rid of them?

Too bad your removed gallbladder wasn't tested for toxins or heavy metals.

Mike
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Post by mle_ii »

bobh wrote:It is what it is.
I don't accept this. Something is busted, the engineer in me is screaming for answers. The puzzle solver in me is facinated.

This is not normal, it is not ok, my body is telling me something is wrong. I'm not going down the path of symptom repair until I know I can't figure out the cause here. Even if it can't be repaired I want to know what it is so that I can accept with good concious that it cannot be fixed and thus cortisol is the answer.

To me it'd be like putting spark plugs into a car that keeps not starting up. It's only because the engine is not getting a spark that it's not starting, but why isn't it getting a spark? Could it be the battery needs more power, are the plugs getting fouled, is the ignition system busted? If it turns out the only answer is to keep putting new spark plugs in then I'll accept that, but if it turns out I've got an oil leak then let's fix the oil leak.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I think you are on the right track and I really do appreciate all the information. I just won't accept that answer quite yet. :)
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Post by bobh »

I am thankful I was not born with a serious birth defect (OK, well maybe I do look strange...)

But I do have some issues. Like one in 12 males, I am color blind. I got white patches of skin in my twenties, and that was odd.

Just this week I learned that is a symptom of long-term adrenal insufficiency (the Vitilago). And that being a "night owl" is considered by some to be a Cortisol rhythm thing that is somewhat established at birth. It isn't normal, and the person doesn't wake up refreshed from a good restful sleep, and they tend to be active at night. I was like that for as long as I can remember.

My point? This is the baggage I have.

For me, personally, I experienced relief (somewhat recently) when I quit trying to figure out why. I'm just glad I wasn't born with a missing arm, Downs syndrome, or something like that. I am serious as a heart attack.

So for the limited time I have when I'm not at my job, I just focus on solutions - and I know you are too. That is why you are asking questions, to make sure the solutions work, and make sense.

My journey into adrenal-thyroid starting December 2006 pushed me down a lot of those roads. I suppose you could say I have "faith" now, and no longer question. But I wouldn't want to push that faith off on others. By all means, research - and a big part of that is researching your own body with the labs I mentioned. And you may discover other labs you want to add, tailored to your symptoms.
Bob H
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