Corn and Grain fed cows.
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Corn and Grain fed cows.
We had the TV on last night, later that we usually have it, and on ABC this lady was interviewing Paul Newman. I have always admired him - handsome, has the same wife, gives a lot of money to charity. They were discussing his charity fund raiser - Newman's Own. He gives the profits to an organization to have camps for kids with cancer, 250 million $ last year! Anyway, they were interviewing his chef also. I was barely listening but he got my attention when they asked him why they don't serve steak at his restaurant. He said something like, Well, you know that when they send cows to the feed lot they feed them corn and other grains and it make them sick, so they give them antibiotics. The grain also makes them gain a lot of weight so they keep giving the grain to them along with the antibiotics. Makes me think twice about eating grain. Maybe you guys who don't eat any grain are really on to something. Any opinions?
Pat,
Cows have something called a rumen*, which helps them digest grass, their natural food. They just weren't designed to eat corn. Since we don't have rumens, I guess it's okay for us!
*the large first compartment of the stomach of a ruminant in which cellulose is broken down by the action of symbiotic microorganisms
Cows have something called a rumen*, which helps them digest grass, their natural food. They just weren't designed to eat corn. Since we don't have rumens, I guess it's okay for us!
*the large first compartment of the stomach of a ruminant in which cellulose is broken down by the action of symbiotic microorganisms
kathy
Pat,
Since you asked for opinons, here's mine:
With all due respect to Paul Neuman, his chef has a major problem that affects most arm-chair farm and ranch "experts". Arm-chair "experts" have never owned or operated a feed lot, and yet they pretend to be experts on what goes on in one. They are "close relatives" of all the "celebrity experts", who know everything about anything, and don't mind sharing their brilliant "knowledge" with all us poor, dumb slobs, who aren't supposed to know any better, especially when it's for a popular political cause. Then, the interviewers, (who are usually just as ignorant as the "arm chair expert" they are interviewing), present the information as if it were facts, thereby perpetuating the misinformation. They deal in half-truths, incorrect assumptions, and outright misrepresentations of the facts. This is a perfect example of the situation where "a little education is a bad thing". In many cases, their intentions are good - they just don't understand the facts, or they are gullible enough to allow themselves to be misled by other arm-chair "experts".
Here is what actually happens, in a bovine digestive system:
While it's true that the rumen was designed primarily to digest cellulose, it can digest starch quite well. The four compartments of a bovine's stomach are the rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum, with the rumen being the largest compartment, where most of the digestion takes place. It contains billions of bacteria, protozoa, molds, and yeasts of various types. These microorganisms live in a symbiotic relationship with the animal, and they are the reason why cattle, (and other ungalates), can eat and digest large amounts of roughage. These microorganisms are adaptable enough that cattle can digest a large variety of feeds, including grass, hay, corn, (and other grains), brewer's grains, corn stalks, silage, and even urea. Being able to digest urea is a pretty neat, (and unique), trick, since non-protein sources of nitrogen, such as urea, will kill non-ruminants.
Okay, here's where we get to the good part: Although the microbes in the rumen can digest a large variety of different feeds, they are very sensitive to drastic changes in feeds. This is the basis of the half-truth claim that corn will make a cow sick. Sure, if you take a cow, (or calf), off the pasture, and suddenly feed it nothing but corn, the animal is going to get sick, because the rumen will not immediately have the proper balance of microbes needed to digest the corn. Likewise, taking an animal off corn, and turning it loose in the pasture, will require a microbe balance adjustment, before the cow can properly digest the forage, again. Well duh! Only an idiot would mistreat his livestock that way, and only someone with more money than brains could afford to do that. Cattlemen who actually make a living raising cattle, don't do that - they couldn't afford to. They adjust rations in steps, so that the microbes have time to adjust their respective populations. Also, once the microflora in the rumens of the cattle are optimally populated, the feedlot operator always carefully blends the ration so that it contains at least a minimum amount of fiber, for the respective weigh class of the animals that are being fed. They are not fed "only grain", (though it can be done, successfully), they are always fed a complex balance of ingredients, designed to provide all the essential nutrients that the cattle need, and allow for an optimum rate of gain for that particular "lot" of cattle. If people ate a ration that is as closed matched to their body, as cattle feedlot rations are matched to the needs of the cattle, we would probably all be much healthier, and more disease-free, (and also much heavier, since the object of a feedlot is to "fatten" and "finish" the animals).
Anyway, the point is, some groups of microbes are better at digesting fiber, (forages), whereas others are better at digesting starch, (grains). Abruptly changing from a forage-based diet to a grain-based diet, will cause millions of fiber-digesting microbes to die-off, since they cannot digest the starch, and there will be too few starch-digesting microbes to use the grain, so the grain will sour in the rumen. The pH in the rumen will go down, the rumen will stop working, and the animal will get sick. In severe cases, cattle can develop acidosis, and founder, or die. The same thing happens in our own digestive systems, when we eat something for which we don't have the proper balance of microbes available for good digestion - we get a "stomachache".
After over two years of not eating corn, (due to an intolerance, which lasted until my gut recovered from years of gluten damage), I had trouble getting started eating corn again. I had to "re-tune" the microbe balance in my gut, by progressively eating a little more corn, every day or so, until
after a week or so, I could eat as much as I wanted. Cattle are no different. It's not rocket science - it's just common sense.
At least this is how I see it, and I have owned/operated a cattle feedlot operation, in the past.
Tex
PS I almost forgot. We did feed a small amount of antibiotics in our feed rations, too, part of the time, depending on conditions. We didn't do it to keep the cattle from getting sick due to eating so much corn, however, (since they didn't get sick from eating corn). We did it primarily to keep them from developing bloody diarrhea, and eventually dying, due to coccidiosis carried by starlings, blackbirds, grackles, etc., that carry the parasites, and love to eat the cattle feed rations, and then defecate on the feed. Many animals are susceptible to coccidiosis, including cats and dogs. They can die from it too, if left untreated.
PPS I'm a big fan of Paul Neuman, and always have been, and I don't have any beef with him. It's his chef who doesn't know what he's talking about. If he wants to claim that organically-raised, grass-fed cattle are healthier than grain-fed cattle, I refer you to my remarks about the physical problems with organically-raised cattle, in another topic. You can find that information here - in post number 7, in this topic:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... t=maverick
Since you asked for opinons, here's mine:
With all due respect to Paul Neuman, his chef has a major problem that affects most arm-chair farm and ranch "experts". Arm-chair "experts" have never owned or operated a feed lot, and yet they pretend to be experts on what goes on in one. They are "close relatives" of all the "celebrity experts", who know everything about anything, and don't mind sharing their brilliant "knowledge" with all us poor, dumb slobs, who aren't supposed to know any better, especially when it's for a popular political cause. Then, the interviewers, (who are usually just as ignorant as the "arm chair expert" they are interviewing), present the information as if it were facts, thereby perpetuating the misinformation. They deal in half-truths, incorrect assumptions, and outright misrepresentations of the facts. This is a perfect example of the situation where "a little education is a bad thing". In many cases, their intentions are good - they just don't understand the facts, or they are gullible enough to allow themselves to be misled by other arm-chair "experts".
Here is what actually happens, in a bovine digestive system:
While it's true that the rumen was designed primarily to digest cellulose, it can digest starch quite well. The four compartments of a bovine's stomach are the rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum, with the rumen being the largest compartment, where most of the digestion takes place. It contains billions of bacteria, protozoa, molds, and yeasts of various types. These microorganisms live in a symbiotic relationship with the animal, and they are the reason why cattle, (and other ungalates), can eat and digest large amounts of roughage. These microorganisms are adaptable enough that cattle can digest a large variety of feeds, including grass, hay, corn, (and other grains), brewer's grains, corn stalks, silage, and even urea. Being able to digest urea is a pretty neat, (and unique), trick, since non-protein sources of nitrogen, such as urea, will kill non-ruminants.
Okay, here's where we get to the good part: Although the microbes in the rumen can digest a large variety of different feeds, they are very sensitive to drastic changes in feeds. This is the basis of the half-truth claim that corn will make a cow sick. Sure, if you take a cow, (or calf), off the pasture, and suddenly feed it nothing but corn, the animal is going to get sick, because the rumen will not immediately have the proper balance of microbes needed to digest the corn. Likewise, taking an animal off corn, and turning it loose in the pasture, will require a microbe balance adjustment, before the cow can properly digest the forage, again. Well duh! Only an idiot would mistreat his livestock that way, and only someone with more money than brains could afford to do that. Cattlemen who actually make a living raising cattle, don't do that - they couldn't afford to. They adjust rations in steps, so that the microbes have time to adjust their respective populations. Also, once the microflora in the rumens of the cattle are optimally populated, the feedlot operator always carefully blends the ration so that it contains at least a minimum amount of fiber, for the respective weigh class of the animals that are being fed. They are not fed "only grain", (though it can be done, successfully), they are always fed a complex balance of ingredients, designed to provide all the essential nutrients that the cattle need, and allow for an optimum rate of gain for that particular "lot" of cattle. If people ate a ration that is as closed matched to their body, as cattle feedlot rations are matched to the needs of the cattle, we would probably all be much healthier, and more disease-free, (and also much heavier, since the object of a feedlot is to "fatten" and "finish" the animals).
Anyway, the point is, some groups of microbes are better at digesting fiber, (forages), whereas others are better at digesting starch, (grains). Abruptly changing from a forage-based diet to a grain-based diet, will cause millions of fiber-digesting microbes to die-off, since they cannot digest the starch, and there will be too few starch-digesting microbes to use the grain, so the grain will sour in the rumen. The pH in the rumen will go down, the rumen will stop working, and the animal will get sick. In severe cases, cattle can develop acidosis, and founder, or die. The same thing happens in our own digestive systems, when we eat something for which we don't have the proper balance of microbes available for good digestion - we get a "stomachache".
After over two years of not eating corn, (due to an intolerance, which lasted until my gut recovered from years of gluten damage), I had trouble getting started eating corn again. I had to "re-tune" the microbe balance in my gut, by progressively eating a little more corn, every day or so, until
after a week or so, I could eat as much as I wanted. Cattle are no different. It's not rocket science - it's just common sense.
At least this is how I see it, and I have owned/operated a cattle feedlot operation, in the past.
Tex
PS I almost forgot. We did feed a small amount of antibiotics in our feed rations, too, part of the time, depending on conditions. We didn't do it to keep the cattle from getting sick due to eating so much corn, however, (since they didn't get sick from eating corn). We did it primarily to keep them from developing bloody diarrhea, and eventually dying, due to coccidiosis carried by starlings, blackbirds, grackles, etc., that carry the parasites, and love to eat the cattle feed rations, and then defecate on the feed. Many animals are susceptible to coccidiosis, including cats and dogs. They can die from it too, if left untreated.
PPS I'm a big fan of Paul Neuman, and always have been, and I don't have any beef with him. It's his chef who doesn't know what he's talking about. If he wants to claim that organically-raised, grass-fed cattle are healthier than grain-fed cattle, I refer you to my remarks about the physical problems with organically-raised cattle, in another topic. You can find that information here - in post number 7, in this topic:
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... t=maverick
-
harvest_table
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 1509
- Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Fergus Falls, Minnesota
Having been pretty much grain free for well over a year I think the lectins are likely the problem for me. It comes up from time to time here. I just feel better when they are not a part of my diet. Here's a good article by the fooddoc http://ezinearticles.com/?Food-Lectins- ... &id=275056Pat wrote: Maybe you guys who don't eat any grain are really on to something. Any opinions?
Speaking of meat, carnivore here, no way in ^#&* will I give it up after eliminating so many other things from my diet over the years. It is such a big part of my diet, but I have an observation to share about store bought beef which may be the cause of flarelike reactions I've been experiencing the last couple months. It's either stress or the meat and I'm suspecting the later.
Been counting my blessings the last few years not having experienced any flares but that changed a couple months ago. I chalked it up to stress because of an upcoming move out of state so concentrated on dealing with those stress ors -doing much better in that department.
Thing is, for 15 years my diet has consisted of wild game, birds and fish so after DX of CC I began eliminating my sensitivties such as gluten, grains, dairy, soy, processed foods with success and by default eating close to paleo. Readying for our upcoming move out of state, we stopped restocking our freezers and I've been slowly weaning off my mainstays of caribou, venison, moose, halibut, duck, grouse and salmon the last few months replacing it with store bought beef and chicken. Although I used to enjoy a big fat juicy beef steak or chicken every once in awhile with no problems I began seriously introducing store bought beef and chicken in earnest to my diet about the time this flare began and I'm having a very hard time shaking it.
The mornings I have beef for breakfast I have D problems. This morning I had caribou and my guts been calm all day. Since I've been in an unstable flare the last couple months my systems out of whack for sure but I can't wait to get this move over and hunt and fish in MN to stock the freezers this fall.
Could it be "my changes in feed" as Tex mentioned-injected meats or heavy fats causing this reaction? The other thing is I like my meat rare as in bloody...so maybe if I cook the beef longer......and I've found no difference in my reactions to grass fed or store bought other than the price.
I like the Newmans too. Cool couple.
Love,
Joanna
THE GLUTEN FILES
http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/
http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/
Interesting thread.
Maybe the chef was a little confused about the issues and was referring to the fact that free-range (grass-fed) animals are healthier because of the increased omega 3 fats (compared to the grain-fed ones). Of course, he could then buy a steak from a grass-fed cow if he wanted.
Joanna, your experience does not surprise me. It happens to me at times, particularly with beef. Until your hubby can hunt/fish again, I would bet that MN might have some free-range farms where you could buy meat and fowl. Until you can locate one, it might be wise to eat more seafood. I have greatly increased my fish intake - primarily because it is more likely to be "wild" and therefore less likely to be contaminated with something. I do not eat any farm-raised fish, BTW. And the latest research on mercury is reassuring - they are now downplaying the earlier recommendations and saying that the benefits of increased omega 3 outweigh the possibility of comtamination by heavy metals. I still don't eat more than 6-8 oz. of salmon per week, but I think we can eat as much of the non-fatty fish as we want.
Tex, I saw in the paper this AM that Paul Newman is retiring from acting. He'll be missed!
Hazel, bison is delicious and has less fat (if free-range) than the equivalent amount of chicken. I think most of the current buffalo meat is free-range and therefore like wild game.
Love,
Polly
Maybe the chef was a little confused about the issues and was referring to the fact that free-range (grass-fed) animals are healthier because of the increased omega 3 fats (compared to the grain-fed ones). Of course, he could then buy a steak from a grass-fed cow if he wanted.
Joanna, your experience does not surprise me. It happens to me at times, particularly with beef. Until your hubby can hunt/fish again, I would bet that MN might have some free-range farms where you could buy meat and fowl. Until you can locate one, it might be wise to eat more seafood. I have greatly increased my fish intake - primarily because it is more likely to be "wild" and therefore less likely to be contaminated with something. I do not eat any farm-raised fish, BTW. And the latest research on mercury is reassuring - they are now downplaying the earlier recommendations and saying that the benefits of increased omega 3 outweigh the possibility of comtamination by heavy metals. I still don't eat more than 6-8 oz. of salmon per week, but I think we can eat as much of the non-fatty fish as we want.
Tex, I saw in the paper this AM that Paul Newman is retiring from acting. He'll be missed!
Hazel, bison is delicious and has less fat (if free-range) than the equivalent amount of chicken. I think most of the current buffalo meat is free-range and therefore like wild game.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Joanna,
FWIW, I still have problems with beef, also. I don't get D. but I just don't seem to digest it very well, and feel sorta "off", and headachy. Because of that, I don't eat it very often, so it could be a gut fauna problem, but I would think that most microorganisms that are adapted to digesting similar meats, (such as pork), could do the job well enough to prevent any noticeable symptoms.
My friend in the meatpacking industry equipment supply business, (IOW, he is the top salesman in the biggest company in North America that specializes in tools, equipment, and supplies, for the meatpacking industry), tells me that most of the bigger meat processors are now injecting beef with "flavor-enhancing broth". Even so, when he brings prime beef to cookouts, that he says is free of any of that stuff, I still feel a little "off", after eating it.
I have no idea why, but there just seems to be something about beef that is unique, in that aspect. I'm talking about corn-fed beef here, (not grass-fed). I don't recall ever eating any grass-fed beef, Even back when we used to butcher our own beef, we finished them with at least some grain supplementation. If I'm going to eat "free-range" meat, I stick with things like venison. I've never tried any bison, (don't have a supplier around here, that I'm aware of), but it should generally be as good as venison, from a nutrition viewpoint, and better, from a palatability viewpoint.
Love,
Tex
FWIW, I still have problems with beef, also. I don't get D. but I just don't seem to digest it very well, and feel sorta "off", and headachy. Because of that, I don't eat it very often, so it could be a gut fauna problem, but I would think that most microorganisms that are adapted to digesting similar meats, (such as pork), could do the job well enough to prevent any noticeable symptoms.
My friend in the meatpacking industry equipment supply business, (IOW, he is the top salesman in the biggest company in North America that specializes in tools, equipment, and supplies, for the meatpacking industry), tells me that most of the bigger meat processors are now injecting beef with "flavor-enhancing broth". Even so, when he brings prime beef to cookouts, that he says is free of any of that stuff, I still feel a little "off", after eating it.
I have no idea why, but there just seems to be something about beef that is unique, in that aspect. I'm talking about corn-fed beef here, (not grass-fed). I don't recall ever eating any grass-fed beef, Even back when we used to butcher our own beef, we finished them with at least some grain supplementation. If I'm going to eat "free-range" meat, I stick with things like venison. I've never tried any bison, (don't have a supplier around here, that I'm aware of), but it should generally be as good as venison, from a nutrition viewpoint, and better, from a palatability viewpoint.
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
To branch off this discussion a bit - honestly it is my PET PEEVE when celebrities/people in entertainment feel they have license to spout advice on things which they truly have limited knowledge. Whether it is medical information, scientific theory, nutrition or other such things, it blows me away that they believe they are *legitimate* sources of information/authority....
The fact is most "celebrity types" were very poor students, and few have more than a high school education. That's fine, and thankfully they found their niche in entertainment....BUT it makes me crazy when they use their power within the media to push an unresearched agenda, and try to come off as *authorities* in an area near and dear to their hearts. Sometimes it is glaringly obvious (like Tom Cruise's take on psychiatry
) - other times it is more subtle - but celebrity does not make one a research authority, by any stretch!!
Rant over...
Mary
The fact is most "celebrity types" were very poor students, and few have more than a high school education. That's fine, and thankfully they found their niche in entertainment....BUT it makes me crazy when they use their power within the media to push an unresearched agenda, and try to come off as *authorities* in an area near and dear to their hearts. Sometimes it is glaringly obvious (like Tom Cruise's take on psychiatry
) - other times it is more subtle - but celebrity does not make one a research authority, by any stretch!!Rant over...
Mary
Thanks, Mary!
I'm glad to see that someone else feels the same way about that issue. I was afraid that I might have been a bit "heavy handed" with my comments.
When scientists and doctors start issuing press releases about the proper way for celebrities to do their jobs, then I will grudgingly concede that celebrities should have the right to advise the rest of us on science and medicine. LOL.
Tex
I'm glad to see that someone else feels the same way about that issue. I was afraid that I might have been a bit "heavy handed" with my comments.
When scientists and doctors start issuing press releases about the proper way for celebrities to do their jobs, then I will grudgingly concede that celebrities should have the right to advise the rest of us on science and medicine. LOL.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Tex,
Thanks for the info! I knew this thread might get a rise out of you.
And I knew you'd probably have some interesting educational information. It wasn't Paul Newman that made the remarks, it was his chef.
Thanks to the rest of you for your interesting remarks also. Joanna, you have the most interesting diet. I would love to try some of those meats.
You all are very interesting and your successes with your diets give me hope!
Pat
Thanks for the info! I knew this thread might get a rise out of you.
And I knew you'd probably have some interesting educational information. It wasn't Paul Newman that made the remarks, it was his chef. Thanks to the rest of you for your interesting remarks also. Joanna, you have the most interesting diet. I would love to try some of those meats.
You all are very interesting and your successes with your diets give me hope!
Pat
Well, I think the subject has been well covered so I won't try to add anything but I'll just say........
Have Loved Paul Newman ever since I saw my first "Newman" movie and his wife is a very cool lady!! However, I agree that no matter how much I might "love" a celebrity.........I draw the line at listening to their "opinions" as if they know what they are talking about. HaHa
Tex, thank you for the feedlot lesson. I never truly understood it.
Love, Shirley
Have Loved Paul Newman ever since I saw my first "Newman" movie and his wife is a very cool lady!! However, I agree that no matter how much I might "love" a celebrity.........I draw the line at listening to their "opinions" as if they know what they are talking about. HaHa
Tex, thank you for the feedlot lesson. I never truly understood it.
Love, Shirley
When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber"
-- Winston Churchill
-- Winston Churchill