Hi Mike!
Are you taking any probiotic at the present time? If so, which one? I am thinking about trying one again. I remember you did a lot of research and found one that you thought was the most physiologic. What was it?
Thanks.
Love,
Polly
Paging Mike re Probiotics
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Paging Mike re Probiotics
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
This is old news for many, maybe even preaching to the choir for some but at whatever risk I will repeat it anyway knowing full well that it may not work for everyone.
I eat a spoonful of sauerkraut every day. Have done so for several years. Have searched for a dairy free pro biotic for years and this is the best I have come up without having to wonder about casein, whey or lactose.
It is a low dose. Just don’t expect any dramatic results.
But then low , slow and very consistent is all that has ever worked for me anyway.
Matthew
I eat a spoonful of sauerkraut every day. Have done so for several years. Have searched for a dairy free pro biotic for years and this is the best I have come up without having to wonder about casein, whey or lactose.
It is a low dose. Just don’t expect any dramatic results.
But then low , slow and very consistent is all that has ever worked for me anyway.
Matthew
At the time, yes I did see some results. I think I have a thread around here where I talked about it. But they only really seemed to be short term, meaning I don't know if it helped me long term or not. Would I have done it differently, probably not. Will I do it again, not sure. I'll have to see what happens with what I'm doing right now.Polly wrote:Did it help?
Silly question, but why do you want to take a probiotic?
Hi Mike,
Good question. Well, like you, I have become a believer that the gut flora imbalance is at the root of our problems. I have never had my flora measured like you have, but I was reading on the internet that those whose gut improves while on Cipro (like mine did) probably have an overgrowth of enterococci. So, I am again thinking that maybe I should think about adding the good flora to help shift the balance, and I remembered that you felt that VSL#3 was the most like normal gut flora,....and also had large numbers of colonies. You don't happen to know of any natural ways to decrease enterococci, do you?
What exactly are you doing these days to manage the MC?
Polly
P.S. The VSL#3 studies seem to show that the effects last only so long as you take the probiotic, so I guess we'd have to take it indefinitely. And I know it's expensive. Do you have to mix it with something, or do they just have some capsules you can take?
Good question. Well, like you, I have become a believer that the gut flora imbalance is at the root of our problems. I have never had my flora measured like you have, but I was reading on the internet that those whose gut improves while on Cipro (like mine did) probably have an overgrowth of enterococci. So, I am again thinking that maybe I should think about adding the good flora to help shift the balance, and I remembered that you felt that VSL#3 was the most like normal gut flora,....and also had large numbers of colonies. You don't happen to know of any natural ways to decrease enterococci, do you?
What exactly are you doing these days to manage the MC?
Polly
P.S. The VSL#3 studies seem to show that the effects last only so long as you take the probiotic, so I guess we'd have to take it indefinitely. And I know it's expensive. Do you have to mix it with something, or do they just have some capsules you can take?
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Yeah, so sort of disbiosis of the gut, whether it's a symptom or a cause I haven't yet decided. I'm starting to lean towards a symptom now. I had a decent write up of my thoughts in this thread:Polly wrote:Hi Mike,
Good question. Well, like you, I have become a believer that the gut flora imbalance is at the root of our problems. I have never had my flora measured like you have, but I was reading on the internet that those whose gut improves while on Cipro (like mine did) probably have an overgrowth of enterococci. So, I am again thinking that maybe I should think about adding the good flora to help shift the balance, and I remembered that you felt that VSL#3 was the most like normal gut flora,....and also had large numbers of colonies. You don't happen to know of any natural ways to decrease enterococci, do you?
What exactly are you doing these days to manage the MC?
Polly
P.S. The VSL#3 studies seem to show that the effects last only so long as you take the probiotic, so I guess we'd have to take it indefinitely. And I know it's expensive. Do you have to mix it with something, or do they just have some capsules you can take?
http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6778
I think I said that it had flora in it that was similar to what's in the gut in "normal" folks or something like that. I see it's benefit short term, but as I mentioned I'm not convinced long term as of yet.
Enterococci I haven't looked up yet. Perhaps when I get some time I'll look it up. My guess is that one of these "natural" remedies might help, Garlic, Cinnamon, Ginger, Berberine (I think this is Oregon Grape), Peppermint.
I don't have MC anymore (at least according to the last colonoscopy) and FWIW if you read the thread I mentioned above I think that MC is a symptom of bacterial overgrowth or bacterial dysbiosis. So given that my treatment for bacterial overgrowth (methane producing in my case) is a prokinetic, a natural antibiotic for methane producers, and dietary changes.
For the prokinetic I'm using ginger after each meal and sometimes at bedtime. Also higher serotonin levels in the blood help and since I'm taking an SSRI that helps here. I'm also supporting the liver with Milk Thistle to help produce more bile which helps with motility and as a natural antibiotic.
For the natuaral antibiotic for methane producers I'm using cinnomon. I figured if it works for cattle that it might work for me. :) So depending on the bacteria that's causing the problem this would change. All other parts do not.
And finally dietary I'm trying to eat low residue and not as much harder to digest sugars. So no or little dairy, lower fructose, no sugar alcohols, steamed veggies (not raw or limited). I'm also taking digestive enzymes with each meal/food I eat and depending on what and how much I eat I add another.
This seems to me to be the most natural and appears to me to be the best solution without drugs (well other than the SSRI which I plan to slowly remove after I'm done removing my amalgams) for helping me. And indeed it appears to be working thus far. Less gas, normal BMs, no gut pain, etc.
Hope this helps,
Mike
PS. I'm also removing my amalgams, less stress on the Liver has got to be good for the gut and body as well. No matter what anyone things about mercury and amalgams getting rid of a body toxin has got to be a good thing.
Okay, this is just me thinking out loud here, but consider this:
What makes animals, birds, fish, invertebrates, and any other categories of species, thrive and achieve high population densities? In a word - "habitat". In an environment where food is plentiful, ambient temperatures are suitable, and reproductive success is not significantly limited by parasites, predators, or any other antagonists, any given species will optimally populate the "domain" where those optimal conditions exist, until overpopulation occurs, unless something happens to change the status quo. This is predicated on the condition, of course, that the species in question has to be viable enough to be capable of efficiently utilizing the potential offered by the habitat.
Of course, the species in question has to have a presence in the "habitat", in order to populate it, but I suspect that within our guts, most species of gut fauna are either omnipresent, (at some population level, however small), or present on a cyclic basis, depending on what we eat, and where we hang out. Furthermore, I suggest that virtually everyone living in any given "human domain", is exposed to the same or similar species of gut fauna at virtually any given time during their respective lifetimes.
Given all that, note that only a rather low percentage of the general population, (in any given "human domain"), ever have a problem with adverse gut fauna populations. That's why I don't believe that bacteria are the immediate cause of GI tract problems of various types, (or any specific types, for that matter). Bacteria, (like any other predators and/or parasites), are opportunists, and they wouldn't be there if the habitat, (the lumen in our gut), hadn't been modified in order to make it highly suitable for their existence. In fact, the "habitat" must be modified to such a degree that they are at a large advantage over any other competing species. If that weren't the case, they couldn't take it over. Right? We're not talking about superbugs here, (though many of them are highly competitive, of course). If they were superbugs, then we would all be in trouble, (the entire general population).
IOW, I think that if we accurately describe the problem, (from an engineering viewpoint), we will find that the "real" solution lies in discovering how the lumen becomes modified so as provide an optimal habitat for "undesirable" bacteria, why it happens, and how it can be corrected, and/or prevented. Anyway, as an amateur naturalist, that's the way I see it, but, of course, I could be all wet. LOL.
Tex
P S Polly, I was under the impression that virtually everyone with diarrhea who takes Cipro, gets temporary relief from the D, but maybe I incorrectly assumed that. Do we know of anyone who is an exception to that?
What makes animals, birds, fish, invertebrates, and any other categories of species, thrive and achieve high population densities? In a word - "habitat". In an environment where food is plentiful, ambient temperatures are suitable, and reproductive success is not significantly limited by parasites, predators, or any other antagonists, any given species will optimally populate the "domain" where those optimal conditions exist, until overpopulation occurs, unless something happens to change the status quo. This is predicated on the condition, of course, that the species in question has to be viable enough to be capable of efficiently utilizing the potential offered by the habitat.
Of course, the species in question has to have a presence in the "habitat", in order to populate it, but I suspect that within our guts, most species of gut fauna are either omnipresent, (at some population level, however small), or present on a cyclic basis, depending on what we eat, and where we hang out. Furthermore, I suggest that virtually everyone living in any given "human domain", is exposed to the same or similar species of gut fauna at virtually any given time during their respective lifetimes.
Given all that, note that only a rather low percentage of the general population, (in any given "human domain"), ever have a problem with adverse gut fauna populations. That's why I don't believe that bacteria are the immediate cause of GI tract problems of various types, (or any specific types, for that matter). Bacteria, (like any other predators and/or parasites), are opportunists, and they wouldn't be there if the habitat, (the lumen in our gut), hadn't been modified in order to make it highly suitable for their existence. In fact, the "habitat" must be modified to such a degree that they are at a large advantage over any other competing species. If that weren't the case, they couldn't take it over. Right? We're not talking about superbugs here, (though many of them are highly competitive, of course). If they were superbugs, then we would all be in trouble, (the entire general population).
IOW, I think that if we accurately describe the problem, (from an engineering viewpoint), we will find that the "real" solution lies in discovering how the lumen becomes modified so as provide an optimal habitat for "undesirable" bacteria, why it happens, and how it can be corrected, and/or prevented. Anyway, as an amateur naturalist, that's the way I see it, but, of course, I could be all wet. LOL.
Tex
P S Polly, I was under the impression that virtually everyone with diarrhea who takes Cipro, gets temporary relief from the D, but maybe I incorrectly assumed that. Do we know of anyone who is an exception to that?
For the most part I agree. That's why I'm making my "habitat" less optimal for the gut bugs that are giving me problems.
A few variables to throw into your equation is that the bugs in ones gut aren't always the ones that we (and the bugs) have evolved with in a symbiotic relationship. The biggest variables that I see that we're throwing into the equation that account for this are whether one is born normally via the birth canal or cecarian (sp), what bugs your mother has, whether one is breast fed or not, whether one took antibiotics or not, and finally as Tex brought up diet. I'm sure there are others, but I see those as being the largest contributors.
Mike
A few variables to throw into your equation is that the bugs in ones gut aren't always the ones that we (and the bugs) have evolved with in a symbiotic relationship. The biggest variables that I see that we're throwing into the equation that account for this are whether one is born normally via the birth canal or cecarian (sp), what bugs your mother has, whether one is breast fed or not, whether one took antibiotics or not, and finally as Tex brought up diet. I'm sure there are others, but I see those as being the largest contributors.
Mike
I may be looking at this too simplistically. I'm assuming that at least a few of just about any species of bugs that are available in a given domain, are likely to reach the gut, on an occasional basis, at least, just due to normal, (human), living habits. I assume that the body, (and the competing), bacteria, should keep any "newcomers" at bay, unless the cards are somehow stacked in the newcomers' favor. The problem could be that this is not a valid assumption, and in reality, stomach acid, and the immune system, are intended to eradicate any invaders before they actually reach the "campgrounds". It might be possible that once they reach the intestines, the immune system assumes that they are OK, and they are "home free" - I doubt that this is the case, though.
From your viewpoint, (if I understand it correctly), any invader that reaches the recesses of the gut, is a real and present danger. That, of course, sort of implies that the body's immune system, and the competing "bugs", must stand helplessly by, while the invading species overwhelms them, and takes over the territory, (so to speak).
Tex
From your viewpoint, (if I understand it correctly), any invader that reaches the recesses of the gut, is a real and present danger. That, of course, sort of implies that the body's immune system, and the competing "bugs", must stand helplessly by, while the invading species overwhelms them, and takes over the territory, (so to speak).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Yeah, when it reaches the recesses of a compromised gut. Compromised by environment and it's impact on our health. And that once this bad bug has populated the gut in sufficient numbers it can be difficult to eradicate. For example in the case of methane, the bacteria produce methane, which compromises gut motility, which further helps the bacteria keep a hold further up in the GI tract where there is more food for the bugs to consume and is easier to consume. Which causes populations to grow and now you have a vicious cycle that's difficult to break.
Even in the case where the anti biotics I took did seem to eradicate the bugs, there were enough there and my bodys defences were still down that they were able to come back.
And I think that the majority of the bugs in the gut are either obtained when we are born and/or in the early years of life. Part of why, I believe, being breast fed leads to healthier children. Beyond that would mean that there is a compromise or a strong bug if your poulation were change from what you develop as a child. I think that once one has a gut that matures, meaning it develops the security system found in healthy folks, that it doesn't change much unless environment impacts. Environment being what you and I have talked about and other things.
Another problem is one that I illuded to elsewhere that once these bugs cause enough damage or open tight junctions that the environment multiplies, things that normally wouldn't be a problem in a gut are now a problem. Proteins being a large one since proteins beyond the barriers is seen as an invader. I would guess that pollysaccarides would also look like bad guys, even some fats might do so as well if they look anything like a lippopolysaccaride.
Mike
Even in the case where the anti biotics I took did seem to eradicate the bugs, there were enough there and my bodys defences were still down that they were able to come back.
And I think that the majority of the bugs in the gut are either obtained when we are born and/or in the early years of life. Part of why, I believe, being breast fed leads to healthier children. Beyond that would mean that there is a compromise or a strong bug if your poulation were change from what you develop as a child. I think that once one has a gut that matures, meaning it develops the security system found in healthy folks, that it doesn't change much unless environment impacts. Environment being what you and I have talked about and other things.
Another problem is one that I illuded to elsewhere that once these bugs cause enough damage or open tight junctions that the environment multiplies, things that normally wouldn't be a problem in a gut are now a problem. Proteins being a large one since proteins beyond the barriers is seen as an invader. I would guess that pollysaccarides would also look like bad guys, even some fats might do so as well if they look anything like a lippopolysaccaride.
Mike
Fascinating thoughts, guys.
Back on topic, I've started on VSL#3 again since my last relapse in October. I'm better again, but it's impossible to know if the probiotic is the reason, or whether the flare just 'passed'. I guess I can definitely say VSL didn't hurt, and my current remission does seem to track to taking it.
I also made the mistake of taking probiotics for a while with meals when I take hydrochloric acid. I think they canceled each other out, and I wasn't improving while doing that.
Back on topic, I've started on VSL#3 again since my last relapse in October. I'm better again, but it's impossible to know if the probiotic is the reason, or whether the flare just 'passed'. I guess I can definitely say VSL didn't hurt, and my current remission does seem to track to taking it.
I also made the mistake of taking probiotics for a while with meals when I take hydrochloric acid. I think they canceled each other out, and I wasn't improving while doing that.
No Gluten,casein,soy,eggs,yeast
From what I understand taking them say an hour or so after a meal is best as this is when stomach acid is at it's lowest. And yes, taking them with HCL would definitly kill them off. Though even with both of these, given the numbers involved in VSL#3 doses I bet there are still a lot that live through it.
FWIW Studies have shown, and now I think I understand one of the mechanisms involved, that even dead bacteria would have an effect on improving health.
Mike
FWIW Studies have shown, and now I think I understand one of the mechanisms involved, that even dead bacteria would have an effect on improving health.
Mike