Specfically ones that play into my thoughts about bacterial causes of our disease.
The role of epithelial Toll-like receptor signaling in the
pathogenesis of intestinal inflammation
http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/rapidpdf/jlb.0607358v1
The re-emerging role of the intestinal microflora in critical
illness and inflammation: why the gut hypothesis of sepsis
syndrome will not go away
http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/rapidpdf/jlb.0607372v1
Very interesting indeed. Ties up a lot of what I've been thinking might be one of the causes, at least in my case, of Lymphocytic colitis. I think that Gluten (specfically it's effect on zonulin/tight junctions) is also a big key here.
Mike
A couple of studies related to IBD and Bacteria
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Mike,
Do you recall that there was a member of the old board, who was a medical student, and who occasionally posted long "discussions" of the part played by Toll-like receptors, in the inflammation process of the gut? I had forgotten all about that, until I read your post.
You know, at one time, there were some discussions on this board about the supposed benefits of raising the pH of the gut, (by eating more alkaline foods), an agenda which is promoted by a number of "natural" health sites on the web. This is supposed to help "soothe" the gut, by reducing the risk of inflammation due to acidity, I suppose. As I recall, I argued that an acidic pH was more desirable, in order to minimize the risk of having population buildups of hostile gut bacteria, but I don't think that anyone believed me. LOL. The chart on Fecal Organic Acid Concentrations and pH in Patients With Severe SIRS, in your second reference, pretty well proves my point. I see that those are both quite new articles.
Thanks,
Tex
Do you recall that there was a member of the old board, who was a medical student, and who occasionally posted long "discussions" of the part played by Toll-like receptors, in the inflammation process of the gut? I had forgotten all about that, until I read your post.
You know, at one time, there were some discussions on this board about the supposed benefits of raising the pH of the gut, (by eating more alkaline foods), an agenda which is promoted by a number of "natural" health sites on the web. This is supposed to help "soothe" the gut, by reducing the risk of inflammation due to acidity, I suppose. As I recall, I argued that an acidic pH was more desirable, in order to minimize the risk of having population buildups of hostile gut bacteria, but I don't think that anyone believed me. LOL. The chart on Fecal Organic Acid Concentrations and pH in Patients With Severe SIRS, in your second reference, pretty well proves my point. I see that those are both quite new articles.
Thanks,
Tex
No I don't recall this person, do you remember their name/alias as I'd like to go back and read it. The old board is still there, but get's very little use, mainly from new folks. Went there to find some of my old post to remember when I started eating gluten free. Boy do I hate the software they use for that site, this one is one of the best in many different ways.tex wrote:Mike,
Do you recall that there was a member of the old board, who was a medical student, and who occasionally posted long "discussions" of the part played by Toll-like receptors, in the inflammation process of the gut? I had forgotten all about that, until I read your post.
I agree, about the only think I can remember more alkaline being better is for the cleansing wave of the upper GI, though I believe that had most to do with bile than food. Being more acidic is definitly going to help with bacteria.tex wrote: You know, at one time, there were some discussions on this board about the supposed benefits of raising the pH of the gut, (by eating more alkaline foods), an agenda which is promoted by a number of "natural" health sites on the web. This is supposed to help "soothe" the gut, by reducing the risk of inflammation due to acidity, I suppose. As I recall, I argued that an acidic pH was more desirable, in order to minimize the risk of having population buildups of hostile gut bacteria, but I don't think that anyone believed me. LOL. The chart on Fecal Organic Acid Concentrations and pH in Patients With Severe SIRS, in your second reference, pretty well proves my point.
Yep, I have a bunch of pubmed queries on a bunch of things I'm interested in hearing current research on that I get daily in email. :)tex wrote:I see that those are both quite new articles.
Thanks,
Tex
Later,
Mike
Although I can't remember the med student (and I should), I do remember some discussion about the PH of the gut and of the foods we eat. It seems like I remember that neutral to lower PH is supposed to be good. Big help I am..............Sorry.
Love, Shirley
Love, Shirley
When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber"
-- Winston Churchill
-- Winston Churchill
I don't remember that member's username either, but I do remember that the articles were very technical. I'll bet Polly knows who I'm thinking of, but I don't believe she's logged on in a couple of days. Maybe she'll see this over the weekend, and respond, if she remembers, or maybe someone else will remember the name.
Sorry for the poor memory,
Tex
Sorry for the poor memory,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi All......including Mikey!
It was TY if I remember correctly. Last we heard from him, he was going off to do research on TLRs at a prestigious institution.
Mike, I am convinced that bacteria play a major role in IBD. Maybe the reason they do is because the body's natural immune system (TLRs, AMPs, etc.) is dysfunctional for whatever reason. I am certain that my LC was initiated by taking 6 weeks of an antibiotic, doxycycline.
Remember when I told you I was researching reasons why some people with chronic sinusitis do not respond to the usual treatment (like me)? Well, at Hopkins two recent studies have shown that in such people there is 30 times less the usual amount of TLR-9 in the sinus tissues than would be expected normally. This translated into far less of a certain defensin (AMP or antimicrobial peptide) that is normally present in the sinus tissue to attack invading bacteria. The reason I am so interested in vitamin D is because it is believed to enhance the body's natural antibiotics, the AMPs (over 500 have now been identified). I am wondering if it does this by working on the TLRs? Have you come across any articles about vitamin D and TLRs or AMPs? I would love to hear about them.
I started taking 4000 IUs per day of vitamin D beginning at the end of Oct. After 6 weeks my 25(OH)D level was only 30 ng/ml. (As you know the vitamin D researchers think the optimal level should be 50-70 ng/ml). Unfortunately, I did not get a baseline bloodtest. So now I am taking 7000 IUs per day, which is the recommended treatment for vitamin D deficiency. I was surprised to learn that the body normally uses 3000-5000 IUs per day, so all I was doing the first 6 weeks was replacing the vitamin, not adding any to my reserves. However, I was wondering about trying a single large dose like you did (stoss therapy like they do in Europe) to get an immediate boost. I think you said you did not notice any changes from it, but didn't you say your LC is gone now? Or have I misunderstood?
A WARNING/DISCLAIMER for readers - I do NOT recommend that anyone do what Mike and I are doing with vitamin D. I am doing this with the full knowledge and support of my internist, who is monitoring me and ordering the blood tests.
Have a relaxing weekend, everyone,
Polly
It was TY if I remember correctly. Last we heard from him, he was going off to do research on TLRs at a prestigious institution.
Mike, I am convinced that bacteria play a major role in IBD. Maybe the reason they do is because the body's natural immune system (TLRs, AMPs, etc.) is dysfunctional for whatever reason. I am certain that my LC was initiated by taking 6 weeks of an antibiotic, doxycycline.
Remember when I told you I was researching reasons why some people with chronic sinusitis do not respond to the usual treatment (like me)? Well, at Hopkins two recent studies have shown that in such people there is 30 times less the usual amount of TLR-9 in the sinus tissues than would be expected normally. This translated into far less of a certain defensin (AMP or antimicrobial peptide) that is normally present in the sinus tissue to attack invading bacteria. The reason I am so interested in vitamin D is because it is believed to enhance the body's natural antibiotics, the AMPs (over 500 have now been identified). I am wondering if it does this by working on the TLRs? Have you come across any articles about vitamin D and TLRs or AMPs? I would love to hear about them.
I started taking 4000 IUs per day of vitamin D beginning at the end of Oct. After 6 weeks my 25(OH)D level was only 30 ng/ml. (As you know the vitamin D researchers think the optimal level should be 50-70 ng/ml). Unfortunately, I did not get a baseline bloodtest. So now I am taking 7000 IUs per day, which is the recommended treatment for vitamin D deficiency. I was surprised to learn that the body normally uses 3000-5000 IUs per day, so all I was doing the first 6 weeks was replacing the vitamin, not adding any to my reserves. However, I was wondering about trying a single large dose like you did (stoss therapy like they do in Europe) to get an immediate boost. I think you said you did not notice any changes from it, but didn't you say your LC is gone now? Or have I misunderstood?
A WARNING/DISCLAIMER for readers - I do NOT recommend that anyone do what Mike and I are doing with vitamin D. I am doing this with the full knowledge and support of my internist, who is monitoring me and ordering the blood tests.
Have a relaxing weekend, everyone,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Hi Polly,
You've got a great memory. I was pretty sure you would remember. The username Ty certainly rings a bell.
That's some very interesting information on the TLRs and AMPs. Concerning your own vitamin D deficiency, as I'm sure you are well aware, a lot of things can interfere with vitamin D absorption, including many medications, iron deficiency, and even something as simple as mineral oil. Liver problems, gallbladder disease, and gastrointestinal disorders can also interfere with vitamin D absorption, so it's no wonder that MCers as a group are more prone to vitamin D deficiencies, which of course leads to more immune system problems. It's a vicious cycle, isn't it.
Have you tried plain old sunlight, to see if it might work better to bring your level up, (tough to do this time of year, I know, because of the weather, but we are actually closer to the sun in the winter, than we are in the summer.
Good luck with your program. Who would have thought that such a simple goal, (raising your 25(OH)D level), could be so difficult to achieve?
Love,
Tex
You've got a great memory. I was pretty sure you would remember. The username Ty certainly rings a bell.
That's some very interesting information on the TLRs and AMPs. Concerning your own vitamin D deficiency, as I'm sure you are well aware, a lot of things can interfere with vitamin D absorption, including many medications, iron deficiency, and even something as simple as mineral oil. Liver problems, gallbladder disease, and gastrointestinal disorders can also interfere with vitamin D absorption, so it's no wonder that MCers as a group are more prone to vitamin D deficiencies, which of course leads to more immune system problems. It's a vicious cycle, isn't it.
Have you tried plain old sunlight, to see if it might work better to bring your level up, (tough to do this time of year, I know, because of the weather, but we are actually closer to the sun in the winter, than we are in the summer.
Good luck with your program. Who would have thought that such a simple goal, (raising your 25(OH)D level), could be so difficult to achieve?
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Polly,
You know, after thinking about this for a while, there's something that bothers me about your vitamin D deficiency. You're kind of an outdoorsy person, so you probably get more sun exposure than most residents of your section of the country, and yet despite taking substantial supplemental vitamin D for an extended period, you're still way short of optimum levels in your system.
Doesn't that imply that you have a malabsorption problem? Why would that be the case? I was always under the impression that once we resolved our MC symptoms, and our small intestines had time to heal, the malabsorption problems should disappear.
Could it be that MC triggers a gene that can cause a chronic problem with vitamin D absorption, or do you attribute the problem to the antibiotics that you've been taking for so long to combat the sinus infection, or maybe even the sinus problem itself? Or, does the general population in this country at your approximate latitude, have a similar vitamin D deficiency?
Love,
Tex
You know, after thinking about this for a while, there's something that bothers me about your vitamin D deficiency. You're kind of an outdoorsy person, so you probably get more sun exposure than most residents of your section of the country, and yet despite taking substantial supplemental vitamin D for an extended period, you're still way short of optimum levels in your system.
Doesn't that imply that you have a malabsorption problem? Why would that be the case? I was always under the impression that once we resolved our MC symptoms, and our small intestines had time to heal, the malabsorption problems should disappear.
Could it be that MC triggers a gene that can cause a chronic problem with vitamin D absorption, or do you attribute the problem to the antibiotics that you've been taking for so long to combat the sinus infection, or maybe even the sinus problem itself? Or, does the general population in this country at your approximate latitude, have a similar vitamin D deficiency?
Love,
Tex
Hi Tex,
All good questions. Actually, most docs (and references) would say that 20ng/ml is the lower limit of normal, so I guess I was normal by the"usual" standard. It is only because of the latest thinking by the vitamin D reserchers that I have decided I need to increase my level.
Yes, I did wonder why I hadn't gotten more vitamin D from the sun. But, because of the infection (and also because with Cipro you are supposed to avoid the sun) I did not do my usual number of trail walks/runs this past summer/fall. Apparently if one lives in a latitude north of Atlanta, it not possible to get enough D from the sun for 6 or more months of the year. That's most of the country! I'll bet your vitamin D levels are optimal - aren't you in the sun daily for much of the year?
You are correct, of course, that the best way to get the vitamin is from the sun. And......it is supposed to be an unheard-of 65 plus degrees here the next 2 days. So, I'm going to try to sunbathe a little!
Love,
Polly
All good questions. Actually, most docs (and references) would say that 20ng/ml is the lower limit of normal, so I guess I was normal by the"usual" standard. It is only because of the latest thinking by the vitamin D reserchers that I have decided I need to increase my level.
Yes, I did wonder why I hadn't gotten more vitamin D from the sun. But, because of the infection (and also because with Cipro you are supposed to avoid the sun) I did not do my usual number of trail walks/runs this past summer/fall. Apparently if one lives in a latitude north of Atlanta, it not possible to get enough D from the sun for 6 or more months of the year. That's most of the country! I'll bet your vitamin D levels are optimal - aren't you in the sun daily for much of the year?
You are correct, of course, that the best way to get the vitamin is from the sun. And......it is supposed to be an unheard-of 65 plus degrees here the next 2 days. So, I'm going to try to sunbathe a little!
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
We had a couple of abnormally cold weeks around Christmas, but the last few days have been unseasonably warm here, too. We're supposed to have a norther blow through late today or tonight, so your part of the country may be warmer than we are for the next couple of days.
Aren't most of those "vitamin D from sun exposure" estimates based on the the use of normal street clothes for the area and the season? Exposing more skin would have to boost the intake. You're right, I should get plenty of vitamin D year round, except when we have long spells of unpleasant weather.
Happy sunbathing! Another fifteen degrees, and you could pretend you're in Cancún for a short vacation.
LOL.
Love,
Tex
We had a couple of abnormally cold weeks around Christmas, but the last few days have been unseasonably warm here, too. We're supposed to have a norther blow through late today or tonight, so your part of the country may be warmer than we are for the next couple of days.
Aren't most of those "vitamin D from sun exposure" estimates based on the the use of normal street clothes for the area and the season? Exposing more skin would have to boost the intake. You're right, I should get plenty of vitamin D year round, except when we have long spells of unpleasant weather.
Happy sunbathing! Another fifteen degrees, and you could pretend you're in Cancún for a short vacation.
LOL.Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Here's another related article. Wonder if this helps explain my slightly elevated liver enzymes which have corrected themselves around the time where I'be been treating my SIBO.
Small intestinal bacteria overgrowth decreases small intestinal
motility in the NASH rats
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/14/313.pdf
Small intestinal bacteria overgrowth decreases small intestinal
motility in the NASH rats
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/14/313.pdf
Interesting, Mike.
Are you sure you weren't taking any meds when your enzymes were elevated? That's a usual cause.
Hmmmmm - I guess I may not have SIBO - I have always had a problem with hypermotility. At least as far as the colon os concerned.
Thanks for sharing.
Polly
Are you sure you weren't taking any meds when your enzymes were elevated? That's a usual cause.
Hmmmmm - I guess I may not have SIBO - I have always had a problem with hypermotility. At least as far as the colon os concerned.
Thanks for sharing.
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
I was on a med that "may" cause elevated liver enzymes (arithromycin), but I was only on it for a couple of weeks and not around the time where it was going up or down and it was in a VERY low dose. So I'm guessing that it wasn't the cause.
What things do you think can cause elevated liver enzymes?
SIBO can cause hypermotility or hypomotility depending on the type of bacteria. An overgrowth of methane producing bacteria can cause constipation, of hydrogen producing bacteria can cause diarrhea. Also, motility can be higher in certain areas of the GI tract and lower in others.
Mike
What things do you think can cause elevated liver enzymes?
SIBO can cause hypermotility or hypomotility depending on the type of bacteria. An overgrowth of methane producing bacteria can cause constipation, of hydrogen producing bacteria can cause diarrhea. Also, motility can be higher in certain areas of the GI tract and lower in others.
Mike
And Polly, I've brought this up elsewhere, but MC and constipation aren't mutually exclusive. Take a look here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1576 ... t=Abstract
Microscopic colitis: a retrospective study of clinical presentation in 53 patients.
Here's the full study:
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/11/1351.asp
Various other studies I've read in the past have had MC with ratios of somewhere around the same numbers of constipated vs diarrhea.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1576 ... t=Abstract
Microscopic colitis: a retrospective study of clinical presentation in 53 patients.
Bold is my emphasis.AIM: To evaluate the relationship between symptoms and microscopic colitis (MC) subtypes: to test whether collagenous colitis (CC) and/or lymphocytic colitis (LC) might be related to both constipation and diarrhea. METHODS: A cohort of patients with independently confirmed typical histopathological changes was investigated. Fifty-three patients with histologically proved MC (46 with CC, 7 with LC) were included. The existence of diarrhea or constipation and the co-existence of autoimmune diseases were also investigated and all data were retrospectively analyzed. RESULTS: Twenty-three (43.39%) of MC patients had chronic constipation (20 in CC, 3 in LC patients). Twenty-four (45.28%) of MC patients had autoimmune disease and the diagnosis of autoimmune disease was always prior to MC. Sjögren's syndrome was associated only with the constipation subgroup. CONCLUSION: The Janus face of MC resembles the subgroups of irritable bowel syndrome. The co-existence of autoimmune diseases and MC is confirmed in both the constipation and diarrhea subgroups.
Here's the full study:
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/11/1351.asp
Various other studies I've read in the past have had MC with ratios of somewhere around the same numbers of constipated vs diarrhea.
Hi Mike!
Interesting. Re your liver enzymes......so many things can cause a rise, since the liver is the main detoxifier of the body. Foreign substances like drugs, obviously, but also others toxins we never think about like pesticides or household products we are exposed to, etc. I suspect that if we did blood tests on everyone every day we would often see temporary abnormal values. The main thing is that they returned to normal, as your did. Of course, it would be good to know why, since you could avoid the offending agent in the future.
Polly
Interesting. Re your liver enzymes......so many things can cause a rise, since the liver is the main detoxifier of the body. Foreign substances like drugs, obviously, but also others toxins we never think about like pesticides or household products we are exposed to, etc. I suspect that if we did blood tests on everyone every day we would often see temporary abnormal values. The main thing is that they returned to normal, as your did. Of course, it would be good to know why, since you could avoid the offending agent in the future.
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.