sprouted grain bread
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
sprouted grain bread
ANyone know if the bread that is made of sprouted grains only and not the flour of the grain would be OK? I found some sprouted grain sour dough bread and my hubby says it is yummy....just wondering....(I think I know the answer, but a gal can hope, can't she?)
Hi Sunny,
I hate to rain on your parade, but your hunch is correct. Sprouted bread has gluten. Sigh. I think folks have found that the best GF breads are made from a mix made by Anna - used to be called Manna from Anna but the name has changed. Most commercial GF breads look and taste like a brick. LOL!
Love,
Polly
I hate to rain on your parade, but your hunch is correct. Sprouted bread has gluten. Sigh. I think folks have found that the best GF breads are made from a mix made by Anna - used to be called Manna from Anna but the name has changed. Most commercial GF breads look and taste like a brick. LOL!
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Hi Sunny,
I see that Polly has already answered your question, but in case you're wondering why that is true, here are my views on the issue:
In the case of sprouted grain breads, the idea sounds good, and most companies promoting those products tout them as "safe" for wheat-sensitive individuals, based on the fact that sprouting initiates a chemical process in a seed whereby the starch is converted to sugar, (to nurture the emerging germ). Note, however, that those claims do not include the words "gluten-free", because they are, in fact, not gluten-free.
Here's why. The protein in a seed is not found in it's starch supply, (known as the endosperm, which is comprised of carbohydrates) - the protein is found in the germ, (known as the embryo, which is the tip of the kernel from which the sprout emerges), so obviously, the manufacturers who make those claims don't have the foggiest idea about what actually occurs during the germination process, as far as gluten is concerned. It's a case of a little knowledge being a bad thing, (they know that the starch is converted to sugar, but that is irrelevant to the gluten issue).
No one completely understands every detail of what happens during the germination process, because it is a very complex chemical process, even though it seems to occur so simply in nature. It is known, however, that the proteins in the embryo are also degraded, (at the same time that the starch is converted to sugar), but just because they are chemically transformed, does not mean that all gliadin fractions are "destroyed".
Look at it this way - sprouting is also known in the trade as "malting", (malting is a process wherein the sprouting is interrupted at a specific point). No malted products, (of any known type), are safe for celiacs, (or gluten sensitive individuals), so why would bread made from sprouted grains somehow be "safe". Here's a link to a topic that discusses this on a Celiac.com forum:
http://www.glutenfreeforum.com/index.ph ... opic=21628
The bottom line is, compared with white bread, for example, it's probably a low gluten product, but not gluten-free, and certainly not low enough in gluten content to be tolerated my many gluten sensitive individuals, (though on the other hand, there may be some individuals who are able to tolerate it, at least for a while).
Tex
P S Whenever asking about a specialty product, it's often helpful to include the name of the product, since even though some concepts might otherwise work for us, many manufacturers feel obligated to "ruin" them by adding something to make them "healthier", or more "appealing", or whatever. In this case, however, I doubt that the brand name would matter, I think they are all off limits to those of us who are gluten sensitive.
I see that Polly has already answered your question, but in case you're wondering why that is true, here are my views on the issue:
In the case of sprouted grain breads, the idea sounds good, and most companies promoting those products tout them as "safe" for wheat-sensitive individuals, based on the fact that sprouting initiates a chemical process in a seed whereby the starch is converted to sugar, (to nurture the emerging germ). Note, however, that those claims do not include the words "gluten-free", because they are, in fact, not gluten-free.
Here's why. The protein in a seed is not found in it's starch supply, (known as the endosperm, which is comprised of carbohydrates) - the protein is found in the germ, (known as the embryo, which is the tip of the kernel from which the sprout emerges), so obviously, the manufacturers who make those claims don't have the foggiest idea about what actually occurs during the germination process, as far as gluten is concerned. It's a case of a little knowledge being a bad thing, (they know that the starch is converted to sugar, but that is irrelevant to the gluten issue).
No one completely understands every detail of what happens during the germination process, because it is a very complex chemical process, even though it seems to occur so simply in nature. It is known, however, that the proteins in the embryo are also degraded, (at the same time that the starch is converted to sugar), but just because they are chemically transformed, does not mean that all gliadin fractions are "destroyed".
Look at it this way - sprouting is also known in the trade as "malting", (malting is a process wherein the sprouting is interrupted at a specific point). No malted products, (of any known type), are safe for celiacs, (or gluten sensitive individuals), so why would bread made from sprouted grains somehow be "safe". Here's a link to a topic that discusses this on a Celiac.com forum:
http://www.glutenfreeforum.com/index.ph ... opic=21628
The bottom line is, compared with white bread, for example, it's probably a low gluten product, but not gluten-free, and certainly not low enough in gluten content to be tolerated my many gluten sensitive individuals, (though on the other hand, there may be some individuals who are able to tolerate it, at least for a while).
Tex
P S Whenever asking about a specialty product, it's often helpful to include the name of the product, since even though some concepts might otherwise work for us, many manufacturers feel obligated to "ruin" them by adding something to make them "healthier", or more "appealing", or whatever. In this case, however, I doubt that the brand name would matter, I think they are all off limits to those of us who are gluten sensitive.
Sunny,
By the way, I forgot to include this in my previous post - here's the website for the bread mixes that Polly mentioned. Note that Anna offers three different versions of gluten-free bread mix, depending on the customers preferences/needs, (IOW, depending on their intolerances).
http://www.glutenevolution.com/
I haven't tried the yeast free version, but I can attest to the fact that the other two mixes will make the absolute best gluten-free bread available in this country, (included imported products), bar none. When properly mixed and baked, this bread is moist, light, delicious, and has a texture/feel very similar to wheat-based bread. You can slice it thin for sandwiches, and it will not explode into a pile of crumbs, the way that most commercial gluten-free bread does. Anna's bead is now available at many stores across the country, so if you don't want to order on-line, you might check out the store locater on the website, to see if there's a store near you that carries it. I think there are some bakeries that offer her bread already baked, also.
Her business has grown exponentially since she founded it a few years ago, because her products are the best on the market.
Tex
By the way, I forgot to include this in my previous post - here's the website for the bread mixes that Polly mentioned. Note that Anna offers three different versions of gluten-free bread mix, depending on the customers preferences/needs, (IOW, depending on their intolerances).
http://www.glutenevolution.com/
I haven't tried the yeast free version, but I can attest to the fact that the other two mixes will make the absolute best gluten-free bread available in this country, (included imported products), bar none. When properly mixed and baked, this bread is moist, light, delicious, and has a texture/feel very similar to wheat-based bread. You can slice it thin for sandwiches, and it will not explode into a pile of crumbs, the way that most commercial gluten-free bread does. Anna's bead is now available at many stores across the country, so if you don't want to order on-line, you might check out the store locater on the website, to see if there's a store near you that carries it. I think there are some bakeries that offer her bread already baked, also.
Her business has grown exponentially since she founded it a few years ago, because her products are the best on the market.
Tex
Hey all
I always enjoy hearing all the glowing praise of Breads from Anna . Always great to hear a success story.
Their have been a few on the board that had problems with it because of the high lectin content from the chickpea flour, navy bean flour and pinto bean flour.
Here is some interesting stuff on lectins. Something that many here have had to watch for.
http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html
Don’t mean to say not try it but don’t buy stock untill you do. :-)
To your continued recovery.
Love
Matthew
I always enjoy hearing all the glowing praise of Breads from Anna . Always great to hear a success story.
Their have been a few on the board that had problems with it because of the high lectin content from the chickpea flour, navy bean flour and pinto bean flour.
Here is some interesting stuff on lectins. Something that many here have had to watch for.
http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html
Don’t mean to say not try it but don’t buy stock untill you do. :-)
To your continued recovery.
Love
Matthew
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Thank you so much for the answers to this question!
I've recently been eating Ezekiel bread, the original one, not sourdough. I don't get sick from it, surprizingly. So if it has gluten, it hasn't been enough to give me a noticeable reaction, at least not yet. I have problems with gluten free breads made from alternate flours however. I'm don't tolerate alternate flours like rice flour, corn, etc, so this has been a nice addition to my diet. At least for now.
Thanks for the good question, and also the answers. Are there others out there (like Matthew?) who are sensitive to grains other than wheat? I can't eat rice or the other gluten free grains.
Love, Marsha
I've recently been eating Ezekiel bread, the original one, not sourdough. I don't get sick from it, surprizingly. So if it has gluten, it hasn't been enough to give me a noticeable reaction, at least not yet. I have problems with gluten free breads made from alternate flours however. I'm don't tolerate alternate flours like rice flour, corn, etc, so this has been a nice addition to my diet. At least for now.
Thanks for the good question, and also the answers. Are there others out there (like Matthew?) who are sensitive to grains other than wheat? I can't eat rice or the other gluten free grains.
Love, Marsha
Hi Marsha!
Me too! I can eat limited amounts of rice, but I really feel best when I eat no grains at all.
That's interesting about the Ezekiel bread - does it claim to be GF on the label?
Good to "see" you again!
Love,
Polly
Me too! I can eat limited amounts of rice, but I really feel best when I eat no grains at all.
That's interesting about the Ezekiel bread - does it claim to be GF on the label?
Good to "see" you again!
Love,
Polly
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Hi Polly!
No, it doesn't claim to be gf, just flourless.
I kind of wonder if what bothers us is more than the lectins. Maybe it's also something that happens to grain during the milling process that creates grain.
Or maybe the process of sprouting, drying, grinding neutralizes enough of the lectins (or the gluten), so that flour made from it is not so damaging. For instance, Tex mentioned once that masa is different than cornmeal due to it's processing method (it seems I do better with masa than cornmeal).
Have you ever eaten the Ezekiel bread? I'm seeing Ezekiel sprouted cold cereal, also, but haven't been adventurous enough to try it yet.
I'll tell you what - toast with margerine is really a treat when you don't eat grain. Dipped in soup.
It's nice to see you, too!!! How your sinus progress?
Love, Marsha
I kind of wonder if what bothers us is more than the lectins. Maybe it's also something that happens to grain during the milling process that creates grain.
Or maybe the process of sprouting, drying, grinding neutralizes enough of the lectins (or the gluten), so that flour made from it is not so damaging. For instance, Tex mentioned once that masa is different than cornmeal due to it's processing method (it seems I do better with masa than cornmeal).
Have you ever eaten the Ezekiel bread? I'm seeing Ezekiel sprouted cold cereal, also, but haven't been adventurous enough to try it yet.
I'll tell you what - toast with margerine is really a treat when you don't eat grain. Dipped in soup.
It's nice to see you, too!!! How your sinus progress?
Love, Marsha
Hi Marsha,
I agree with you - I don't think it's the lectins either. The reason for my opinion is because despite all the rhetoric and teeth-gnashing about lectins, they are mostly a moot issue, due to the fact that heat pretty much deactivates them, and almost all of the grains we eat, (and beans, etc.), are cooked before we eat them. "What about cold cereals?" you ask. Yep, the grains used in cereal are cooked before they are flaked, granulated, puffed, or whatever. In view of that, I don't see how the lectins, per se, could actually be delivering the negative effects on our health, that are ascribed to them.
Your experience with masa and cornmeal, however, appears to contradict this position, since masa is cooked, (steeped, or steamed), for hours, before being processed into masa, whereas cornmeal is simply whole, (uncooked), ground corn. Note that corn flour can be manufactured by two different processes, however. It can be made simply by grinding whole, (uncooked), corn, (and sifting out the grits), or it can be made by drying, and then regrinding masa. This latter process is used for a product called "Maseca", manufactured by Azteca Milling L. P., and I think they are the only ones using that process, but I could be wrong, so it's best to read the label to see if it says "Ground masa" or "Ground corn".
For the most part, though, I believe that all other flours made from any of the grains, are simply ground, (not cooked). Flours are always baked, (or otherwise heated), before we consume them, though, so theoretically at least, lectins in flours should be a moot issue.
Soooooooo, like you, I think that the problems that some of us have with grains, are due to something other than lectins. Most likely we have some degree of intolerance to the primary prolamin proteins found in these grains. For example, in corn, the protein that is the equivalent to the prolamin in wheat that causes the damage, (gluten), is called zein, and the equivalent prolamin in rice is called orzenin. Like avenin, (the prolamin in oats that causes me to react), they are much "weaker" antagonists, (when compared with gluten, hordein, and secalin), and they are found in much lower concentrations in the grains themselves, so that any resulting symptoms are more likely to take longer to show up, and are not as likely to be severe. IOW, they are more likely to cause a vague feeling "unwellness", or "less than optimum" health, rather than an obvious reaction.
40 to 50 % of the protein in wheat, for example, is prolamins, most of which is gluten, (the rest is glutelins, the most well known of which is glutenin). For oats and rice, on the other hand, only 5 to 15 % of the protein is in the form of the prolamins avenin and orzenin, respectively. That effectively "dilutes" it, significantly. For corn, 75 to 80 % of the protein is in the form of the prolamin zein, but corn has about half the protein content of most of the other grains being discussed here.
Anyway, that's the way I see it. I could be all wet, of course. LOL.
Love,
Tex
I agree with you - I don't think it's the lectins either. The reason for my opinion is because despite all the rhetoric and teeth-gnashing about lectins, they are mostly a moot issue, due to the fact that heat pretty much deactivates them, and almost all of the grains we eat, (and beans, etc.), are cooked before we eat them. "What about cold cereals?" you ask. Yep, the grains used in cereal are cooked before they are flaked, granulated, puffed, or whatever. In view of that, I don't see how the lectins, per se, could actually be delivering the negative effects on our health, that are ascribed to them.
Your experience with masa and cornmeal, however, appears to contradict this position, since masa is cooked, (steeped, or steamed), for hours, before being processed into masa, whereas cornmeal is simply whole, (uncooked), ground corn. Note that corn flour can be manufactured by two different processes, however. It can be made simply by grinding whole, (uncooked), corn, (and sifting out the grits), or it can be made by drying, and then regrinding masa. This latter process is used for a product called "Maseca", manufactured by Azteca Milling L. P., and I think they are the only ones using that process, but I could be wrong, so it's best to read the label to see if it says "Ground masa" or "Ground corn".
For the most part, though, I believe that all other flours made from any of the grains, are simply ground, (not cooked). Flours are always baked, (or otherwise heated), before we consume them, though, so theoretically at least, lectins in flours should be a moot issue.
Soooooooo, like you, I think that the problems that some of us have with grains, are due to something other than lectins. Most likely we have some degree of intolerance to the primary prolamin proteins found in these grains. For example, in corn, the protein that is the equivalent to the prolamin in wheat that causes the damage, (gluten), is called zein, and the equivalent prolamin in rice is called orzenin. Like avenin, (the prolamin in oats that causes me to react), they are much "weaker" antagonists, (when compared with gluten, hordein, and secalin), and they are found in much lower concentrations in the grains themselves, so that any resulting symptoms are more likely to take longer to show up, and are not as likely to be severe. IOW, they are more likely to cause a vague feeling "unwellness", or "less than optimum" health, rather than an obvious reaction.
40 to 50 % of the protein in wheat, for example, is prolamins, most of which is gluten, (the rest is glutelins, the most well known of which is glutenin). For oats and rice, on the other hand, only 5 to 15 % of the protein is in the form of the prolamins avenin and orzenin, respectively. That effectively "dilutes" it, significantly. For corn, 75 to 80 % of the protein is in the form of the prolamin zein, but corn has about half the protein content of most of the other grains being discussed here.
Anyway, that's the way I see it. I could be all wet, of course. LOL.
Love,
Tex
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Geez!! How do you know this stuff?!
I'm going to take a while to read your post and see if I can digest it. (Get it? digest?)
Then I'll email you again.
Why exactly do you think it is that Ezekiel bread is tolerable for me? (when traditional bread is not).
Happy Easter . . ALL my best to you and your family, Tex.
Marsha
P.S. Do you think masa be used interchangeably with cornmeal in recipes (say cornbread or muffins)? Do you know why it us only used for specific Mexican foods? It is only used for tortillas, isn't it?
I'm going to take a while to read your post and see if I can digest it. (Get it? digest?)
Then I'll email you again.
Why exactly do you think it is that Ezekiel bread is tolerable for me? (when traditional bread is not).
Happy Easter . . ALL my best to you and your family, Tex.
Marsha
P.S. Do you think masa be used interchangeably with cornmeal in recipes (say cornbread or muffins)? Do you know why it us only used for specific Mexican foods? It is only used for tortillas, isn't it?
Hi Marsha,
Back when I was in the food corn processing business, I found it beneficial to attend a few university cereal chemistry seminars. I made friends with one or two of the profs who seemed to know what they were doing, and whenever I encountered a problem that required some real insight, I would call and they were always kind enough to offer some expert advice (except for a time or two when they were stumped, too). I've forgotten most of what I learned, but some of it stuck, I suppose.
LOL. I hope reading that doesn't give you indigestion.
I'm pretty sure that the reason why you can eat the Ezekiel bread without any apparent problems is because it's gluten content is very low, when compared with regular bread, and it's probably more digestible, to boot, (due to the fact that the starch in the kernel is converted back to sugar during the sprouting process). During the growing season, while the endosperm in the kernal, (which is the main part of the kernel), is being developed, it is in the form of sugar. As the kernel matures, and begins to dry down, the sugar is converted to starch, (so that it will have a long, stable storage life). After the seed begins the germination process, enzymes convert the starch back to sugar, so that it can be used as "fuel" for the developing sprout. IOW, sprouted grain is sort of "pre-digested" during the sprouting process, so bread made from it should, (theoretically, at least), be easier to digest.
During the process by which masa is made, almost all of the pericarp, (seedcoat), and the seedtip is removed from the kernels of corn. The pericarp and seedtip are comprised mostly of Neutral Detergent Fiber, (NDF), which is pretty much 100% indigestible, (this is the part that goes right through you when you eat whole corn). Therefore, masa is much more digestible than ground whole corn.
I've never tried using masa flour for cornbread or muffins, but I would expect the finished product to be much denser, (due to the missing fiber). Also, the flavor would be different. It wouldn't cost much to find out, but I'm guessing that you probably wouldn't be happy with the texture and taste.
I hope you and yours are having a happy Easter, too.
Tex
Back when I was in the food corn processing business, I found it beneficial to attend a few university cereal chemistry seminars. I made friends with one or two of the profs who seemed to know what they were doing, and whenever I encountered a problem that required some real insight, I would call and they were always kind enough to offer some expert advice (except for a time or two when they were stumped, too). I've forgotten most of what I learned, but some of it stuck, I suppose.
LOL. I hope reading that doesn't give you indigestion.
I'm pretty sure that the reason why you can eat the Ezekiel bread without any apparent problems is because it's gluten content is very low, when compared with regular bread, and it's probably more digestible, to boot, (due to the fact that the starch in the kernel is converted back to sugar during the sprouting process). During the growing season, while the endosperm in the kernal, (which is the main part of the kernel), is being developed, it is in the form of sugar. As the kernel matures, and begins to dry down, the sugar is converted to starch, (so that it will have a long, stable storage life). After the seed begins the germination process, enzymes convert the starch back to sugar, so that it can be used as "fuel" for the developing sprout. IOW, sprouted grain is sort of "pre-digested" during the sprouting process, so bread made from it should, (theoretically, at least), be easier to digest.
During the process by which masa is made, almost all of the pericarp, (seedcoat), and the seedtip is removed from the kernels of corn. The pericarp and seedtip are comprised mostly of Neutral Detergent Fiber, (NDF), which is pretty much 100% indigestible, (this is the part that goes right through you when you eat whole corn). Therefore, masa is much more digestible than ground whole corn.
I've never tried using masa flour for cornbread or muffins, but I would expect the finished product to be much denser, (due to the missing fiber). Also, the flavor would be different. It wouldn't cost much to find out, but I'm guessing that you probably wouldn't be happy with the texture and taste.
I hope you and yours are having a happy Easter, too.
Tex
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Sulfur (sulfates) are used to soften and get rid of the exterior of the corn for both corn meal and masa, right? I think I read once that masa is treated with lime, as well? I'm wondering what differences there are in the processing of the two.
Anyway, thanks so much for the insight. I'll have to get back with you another time,
Marsha
Anyway, thanks so much for the insight. I'll have to get back with you another time,
Marsha
Hi Marsha,
Corn meal is made simply by grinding whole, uncooked kernels of corn, and usually, (but not always), sifting out the grits. No chemicals are needed for the process.
To make masa, whole kernels of corn are steeped in a heated solution of water and lime, (calcium hydroxide), until most of the pericarp, (seedcoat), dissolves in the solution, (this can take anywhere from several hours to almost a day, depend on the temperatuere, pericarp thickness, and other variables). The "bath" is then drained, and the corn is rinsed with water, to wash away the pericarp fragments and to remove most of the lime. For some products, the rinse is cut short, so that more of the lime remains, and the product is sold as "lime-flavored", (such as "lime-flavored" tortilla chips, for example). The soft kernels are then "wet-milled", using stone mills, to make the dough known as masa.
Some modern masa plants use steam in closed tanks, (also with lime), to speed up the cooking process, rather than heating in open top tanks, in the traditional manner, but the result is pretty much the same.
I'm not aware that anyone uses any sulfur compounds in the process, at least none of the plants that I've toured used any.
Tex
Corn meal is made simply by grinding whole, uncooked kernels of corn, and usually, (but not always), sifting out the grits. No chemicals are needed for the process.
To make masa, whole kernels of corn are steeped in a heated solution of water and lime, (calcium hydroxide), until most of the pericarp, (seedcoat), dissolves in the solution, (this can take anywhere from several hours to almost a day, depend on the temperatuere, pericarp thickness, and other variables). The "bath" is then drained, and the corn is rinsed with water, to wash away the pericarp fragments and to remove most of the lime. For some products, the rinse is cut short, so that more of the lime remains, and the product is sold as "lime-flavored", (such as "lime-flavored" tortilla chips, for example). The soft kernels are then "wet-milled", using stone mills, to make the dough known as masa.
Some modern masa plants use steam in closed tanks, (also with lime), to speed up the cooking process, rather than heating in open top tanks, in the traditional manner, but the result is pretty much the same.
I'm not aware that anyone uses any sulfur compounds in the process, at least none of the plants that I've toured used any.
Tex
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Thank you so much! for the answer to my question. This is something I've been wondering about for a long time. I will indeed try to make something normally made from cornmeal out of masa and see what happens.
I've been out of town, so I sure had to sift through a lot of posts to find our original conversation . .
Thanks again,
Marsha
I've been out of town, so I sure had to sift through a lot of posts to find our original conversation . .
Thanks again,
Marsha