Another Clue That IBDs May Be Caused By A Mycobacterium

[Polly]

Hi Cristi!

Excellent question! And you are not "out of your league" - it is often questions like this that lead to big discoveries.

Cefoxitin belongs to a category of drugs called "2nd generation cephalosporins".
These drugs are similar to penicillin and work by interfering with cell wall synthesis. (BTW, we are now up to "5th generation").

Thus, cefoxitin is not in the category of drugs called "macrolide antibiotics" that includes clarithromycin and are thought to work against MAP.

Love,

Polly

[Stanz]

I am so fascinated by this thread and the responses to what I wrote and what Cristi wrote. I am a freelancer and I am working horrific hours of late. I am watching this and I will respond when I have the brains left to actually say and understand what I'm talkin' about.

This is such a great place. I am humbled that Tex has responded to what I write, considering what he's been through in the past few weeks. Is life never not a crisis? I'd just love to have a time to completely sit back and veg.

[tex]

Connie,

Incidentally, there was so much information in your first post in this thread, that I overlooked this statement, the first time around:

I also have what presents as a "weeping" in my ears in response to stress. I will awaken in the night hearing my heartbeat in the ear that is on the pillow because my ear is weeping a fluid that ultimately seals off my eardrum. Usually I can clear this with water on a Q-tip, but occasionally it will last for a day or two when my hearing is basically closed off by some sort of crust.

That sounds a lot like what happened to me last winter. I thought I just had a "weeping" ear. My GP just thought that I had impacted wax in my ear, but after he couldn't wash it out, he sent me to an ENT doc, who immediately recognized it as a fungus. He treated it, (with nystatin, I believe), and then he blew it out of there. That was the end of a nagging problem, that had bothered me for about 6 months.

Tex

P. S. Long, hard work hours suck, but they sure do help to pay the bills. I just hope that you get enough time off between projects, to allow you to recharge your batteries, and enjoy the fruits of your labor, once in a while.

[Polly]

Evolution or devolution?

Hmmmmmmm, Tex always gets me thinking.

OK, here goes (nothing, probably, LOL!). Mycobacteria are intracellular parasites - they need us (our cells) to be able to survive. So the more they could hide and therefore escape detection in our bodies, the more they could prosper. By getting rid of the cell wall, they are far less detectable. Sneaky little critters, aren't they? Also, losing the cell wall might have been a mutation prompted by exposure to antibiotics, since most of the earliest antibiotics worked by disrupting the cell wall. So not only can they hide better, they have made themselves more immune to treatment.

And for pure speculation.......IF MAP is in any way related to the development of IBDs (inflammatory bowel diseases like Crohn's, MC etc.), then they have been extremely successful in assuring their survival, because IBDs are widespread, difficult to treat and seem to be increasing.

So, Tex, I guess I would say it's a case of EVOLUTION! What do others think?

Polly

[ant]

Polly wrote

losing the cell wall might have been a mutation prompted by exposure to antibiotics, since most of the earliest antibiotics worked by disrupting the cell wall

So antibiotics may not just be killing of "good" bacteria, but helping this nasty bug to evolve through evolution ?????

Ant

[tex]

Polly,

I don't know enough about their history to even take a guess, but I would presume that unless they previously existed in a similar form, (sans cell walls), then you are quite correct - they have evolved into their present form, by the process of natural selection, (which is not a good omen, of course).

Tex

[harvest_table]

Hi all,

This is a thought provoking post on a blog I follow titled: Does Coeliac disease require an infection?

It doesn't matter if you have active or diet controlled coeliac disease, the enzyme, and presumably the bacterium producing it is (pretty well) always and only present in coeliacs. So is coeliac disease an infection? Or are people with coeliac disease exquisitely good hosts for the gliadinase producing bacteria which do not establish in normal people?

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/ ... fection%3F

Click on picture image to zoom in. There's quite an interesting archive of other posts you might enjoy reading too.

Love,

Joanna

[tex]

Joanna,

I believe you're found some cutting edge information, there. This article, http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/ ... 20bladders , for example, appears to offer a good explanation of why so many people with MC, tend to have gallbladder problems. Note that in some cases, gallstones are not even present, and yet serious gallbladder problems develop - exactly what several members here have experienced.

You're really coming up with some good links today.

Love,
Tex

[cludwig]

Hi All,

I am one of those who had gallbladder disease with no gallstones. I found out two years ago that I had parasites from a new kind of DNA stool test after testing negative numerous times to traditional stool tests. I took a double dose of the appropriate antibiotics at the time. Well, after my surgery last month for adhesions ( which was very successful....no localized pain anymore)...wouldn't you know it I started having bloating and an itchy anus and I've got those @#$% parasites back. The surgery must have dampened my immune system enough to get them started again. So this whole getting rid of them completely is another medical lie. The same thing happened to my daughter who a few years ago got guiardia...was treated with antibiotics and was fine for a year until she went on a 50 day camping trip in the middle of winter. Day 48 she came down with guardia again but was not re-infected. She was exhausted and her immune system was depressed. So those parasites must have the ability to hibernate until conditions are good for them to thrive.

Sorry if I keep bringing up parasites on an MC site but I keep reading that parasites are actually responsible for over 60% of IBS sufferers and IBS is so close to MC. I have had them for decades and I would have assumed that I would have seen one at some point and I never ever saw any sign. I never had the itchy anus before....maybe it only occurs at the beginning of the infection. I guess for those folks who continue to suffer bloating and IBS like symptoms after diet changes and trying entocort without dramatic results...parasites are worth ruling out. I am convinced they got my gallbladder.

Love, Cristi

[Polly]

Hi Cristi,

What you describe about the parasite behavior is similar to how tuberculosis bacilli (think MAP!) operate. And also true of herpes viruses. Where the organism can never be fully eradicated but "hides" in the body forever and becomes active at certain times when triggered by certain factors. Hmmmmm, very interesting. What type of parasites are these?

So happy to hear that the pain is gone and that surgery seems to have worked!

Love,

Polly

[Stanz]

This continues to be the best thread ever, IMO. Joanna, that link is priceless for information.

So, the questions I've had about the triggers for MC remain the same.

Is it linked to HRT because so many have had early hysterectomies for what was supposedly endometriosis, but the scar tissue was probably caused by gluten all along?

Is it linked to antibiotic use because so many have undx MAP and have had symptoms of bacterial infection they were trying to treat?

Is it linked to stress because stress weakens the system and allows the MAP to take over again?

Cannot wait to have the time to read more about this.

[cludwig]

Hi Polly,

I first tested positive for trichuris or whipworm and took two rounds of mebendazole. Then I improved for a couple of months and then began coughing so that other people were commenting. It wasn't a cold and nothing came up and wasn't severe but it was not going away. It was interesting because I never have a problem with my lungs...colds never settle there and I have never had any kind of lung infection ever so this was new to me. I had a repeat stool test to determine if the trichuris was gone and I came up positive for strongyloides. The first sign of a strongloides infection is coughing. The lab's explanation was that one parasites often keeps another in check. So, I took ivermectin and albendazole for the strongyloides and my cough disappeared. Strongyloided and giardia infectionns both target the gallbladder. The last stool test I took was positive for an ingested protozoan of unknown taxonomy. The lab speculated that I was still shedding partial pieces of dead trichuris because there was only incomplete DNA fragments. They said not to treat unless symptomatic.

There are hikers online who couldn't get rid of giardia using antibiotics and have found long term relief using herbs. I think this is the route I would like to try but I have some reservations. In the beginning of my illness I experimented because I assumed I might have a yeast problem and I took garlic pills and a different time I took peppermint capsules for IBS. Well, months later I took a serum allergy test and had a +1 reaction to both garlic and peppermint. Maybe I have to find a few herbs and rotate them.


BTW, traditional stool tests for strongyloides are at best 60% accurate for 5 consecutive stool tests. Most GI only have you take one stool tests and give you the results as if they are the last word and never a mention as to how grossly inaccurate they are.


I am doing so much better without the adhesion. It wasn't huge or through out my abdomen but was very effective at messing up the motility in my small intestine.


Love,
Cristi

[Polly]

Interesting, Cristi. It seems that "bugs" that are considered to be parasites (protozoa, MAP) are problematic for us.

Here is another article of interest (I don't think it has been cited in this thread, but I may have missed it). It's from an article in Dec., 2007 in The Journal of Clinical Microbiology titled "MAP Infection in Cases of IBS and Comparison of Johne's Disease, etc."


Abstract

Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis causes Johne's disease, a systemic infection and chronic inflammation of the intestine that affects many species, including primates. Infection is widespread in livestock, and human populations are exposed. Johne's disease is associated with immune dysregulation, with involvement of the enteric nervous system overlapping with features of irritable bowel syndrome in humans. The present study was designed to look for an association between Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis infection and irritable bowel syndrome. Mucosal biopsy specimens from the ileum and the ascending and descending colon were obtained from patients with irritable bowel syndrome attending the University of Sassari, Sassari, Sardinia, Italy. Crohn's disease and healthy control groups were also included. Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis was detected by IS900 PCR with amplicon sequencing. Data on the potential risk factors for human exposure to these pathogens and on isolates from Sardinian dairy sheep were also obtained. Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis was detected in 15 of 20 (75%) patients with irritable bowel syndrome, 3 of 20 (15%) healthy controls, and 20 of 23 (87%) people with Crohn's disease (P = 0.0003 for irritable bowel syndrome patients versus healthy controls and P = 0.0000 for Crohn's disease patients versus healthy controls). One subject in each group had a conserved single-nucleotide polymorphism at position 247 of IS900 that was also found in isolates from seven of eight dairy sheep. There was a significant association (P = 0.0018) between Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis infection and the consumption of hand-made cheese. Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis is a candidate pathogen in the causation of a proportion of cases of irritable bowel syndrome as well as in Crohn's disease.


Interesting that they did biopsies but apparently they did not look for MC in the specimens......only MAP. I'll bet all if not most of the IBS cases were really MC - anyone wanna take the bet? I was impressed with how many were positive for MAP.

Love,

Polly

[tex]

I'll bet all if not most of the IBS cases were really MC - anyone wanna take the bet?

I wouldn't touch that bet with a ten-foot pole.

I was impressed with how many were positive for MAP.

That's for sure. They must be getting better at detecting them.

Love,
Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

how long before the MC sufferers benefit from this improvement in detection.....