Hi all, I am still trying to make sense of all the information I see on this site and other sites dealing with MC. I have a lot of trust in this site because we all have MC and have the advantage of each other's experience. I have read thru Dr. Fine's writings on the topic and note that he places utmost importance on diet and the gluten-free approach. If I understand him, he talks about different treatments but says without going gluten-free, we would relapse anyway so go directly to gluten-free. I also see the diet approach here. So I am wondering....is the consensus that if one eliminates their offending foods from their diet, then MC will cease to be a problem? I have read many places that nobody knows what causes MC, only certain drugs are implicated in starting it up. But if perfect diet is attained, why would drugs ever be needed?
Could it be that eating the wrong foods is the only cause? But in my case, I had a flare of LC several years ago, took limited Pepto, got over the flare and three years went by with my eating most everything....bread being the only thing that caused terrible heartburn. Then, BAM it all started 1/12/10 and doesn't want to stop no matter what I eat. I would love it if just diet were the cause/cure. I pray that somebody comes up with a definitive cause for MC and the reason why it just flares. I truly believe extreme stress starts this up but why it continues, ?? I read a study tonight about Boswellia serrate extract and how it, in a small study overseas, greatly benefitted the majority of those taking part in the study. Another different study stateside claimed it was not beneficial. Who to believe??? I guess besides being a sufferer of this condition, I have now of late become very interested in the research as well. It seems like MC is an underfunded orphan-child as far as research goes. It is hard for me to believe we are as rare as they say. Sorry for the length of this..just ranting from frustration, I guess. Sylvia
Importance of Diet?
Moderators: Rosie, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Importance of Diet?
Do good or do not
Hi Sylvia,
You've obviously put a lot of thought and research into your understanding of the disease, and many of us wonder about the same things.
I really believe that one of the concepts that is rarely given it's due, is the fact that for many of us, small intestinal involvement is a major part of our issues. Damage to the small intestine typically accrues somewhat slowly, (and this is probably true in the colon, as well), and once a significant amount of damage is present, healing can be excruciatingly slow. Even after clinical symptoms are resolved, in most cases, histologic changes, (IOW, damage on a cellular level), are not returned to normal, until several years have passed, after treatment is started. (This has been proven for celiac disease, for example, and I can cite references, if needed). That's why remission is so difficult to regain, and why we remain so vulnerable, for so long, after treatment is started. Note that virtually none of the GI docs recognize this long-term effect, let alone incorporate it into their treatment programs.
Once we have been in remission for years, then an isolated "damaging" incident, is no big deal, provided that we have faithfully followed our treatment program, at all times. IOW, if we accidentally ingest gluten, we will typically have a very minor reaction, which is very short-lived, and the next day, we will usually be fine.
On the other hand, if we "jettison" our treatment program, somewhere along the line, then we are very likely to slowly accumulate intestinal damage, (both large and small intestine), which will eventually reach the point where we are at the threshold that will allow the "straw that broke the camel's back" to suddenly plunge us into a full-fledged flare, and we will be back to sqaure one. Note that all of this is just my opinion, based on my observations of my own personal experiences, and the experiences of all the members who are willing to share their information here.
IMO, all of the IBD's, (and especially their treatment), are misunderstood, but of course, MC is the most misunderstood of all. With Crohn's, for example, even though they know that it is an incurable disease, doctors treat flares. Once a patient is in remission, they don't see the need for any intervention, until the next flare comes along. Well duh! As we all know, the next flare is inevitable, so why not do something to preempt it, and prevent all that misery, and additional damage to the intestines. With every flare, a Crohn's patient gets closer to the need for major surgery. I can't help but believe that subsequent flares could be averted, or at least minimized, by a better treatment plan. There are probably a few cases where doctors prescribe drug treatment plans, as a "maintenance" or preventative program, but integrated plans, involving customized diet restrictions, are probably as scarce as hen's teeth, if they exist at all.
Evidence for that possibility, (minimal flare risk, due to a continuous treatment program), is evident right here on this board. MC and Crohn's have many characteristics in common, so that there is at least a reasonable chance that techniques that work for one, might work for the other, (note that even the same medications are effective for both diseases). The fact that those of us with MC, are able to maintain remission indefinitely, by faithfully following our treatment program, is pretty strong empirical evidence that the same approach might work for Crohn's disease, for example. And yet, instead of pursuing this approach, doctors continue to treat flares, (which, of course, logically follows, considering their dedication to treating symptoms, rather than treating the cause of so many diseases).
Anyway, to sum up my view of the issue, IMO, since the IBDs are lifetime diseases, with no known cures, continuous treatment is necessary, if flares are to be prevented. Without that continuous treatment, regardless of how great we might feel, I believe that we slowly accumulate damage to the intestines, which will eventually lead to an inevitable flare.
At least, that's the way I see it, FWIW.
Tex
You've obviously put a lot of thought and research into your understanding of the disease, and many of us wonder about the same things.
I really believe that one of the concepts that is rarely given it's due, is the fact that for many of us, small intestinal involvement is a major part of our issues. Damage to the small intestine typically accrues somewhat slowly, (and this is probably true in the colon, as well), and once a significant amount of damage is present, healing can be excruciatingly slow. Even after clinical symptoms are resolved, in most cases, histologic changes, (IOW, damage on a cellular level), are not returned to normal, until several years have passed, after treatment is started. (This has been proven for celiac disease, for example, and I can cite references, if needed). That's why remission is so difficult to regain, and why we remain so vulnerable, for so long, after treatment is started. Note that virtually none of the GI docs recognize this long-term effect, let alone incorporate it into their treatment programs.
Once we have been in remission for years, then an isolated "damaging" incident, is no big deal, provided that we have faithfully followed our treatment program, at all times. IOW, if we accidentally ingest gluten, we will typically have a very minor reaction, which is very short-lived, and the next day, we will usually be fine.
On the other hand, if we "jettison" our treatment program, somewhere along the line, then we are very likely to slowly accumulate intestinal damage, (both large and small intestine), which will eventually reach the point where we are at the threshold that will allow the "straw that broke the camel's back" to suddenly plunge us into a full-fledged flare, and we will be back to sqaure one. Note that all of this is just my opinion, based on my observations of my own personal experiences, and the experiences of all the members who are willing to share their information here.
IMO, all of the IBD's, (and especially their treatment), are misunderstood, but of course, MC is the most misunderstood of all. With Crohn's, for example, even though they know that it is an incurable disease, doctors treat flares. Once a patient is in remission, they don't see the need for any intervention, until the next flare comes along. Well duh! As we all know, the next flare is inevitable, so why not do something to preempt it, and prevent all that misery, and additional damage to the intestines. With every flare, a Crohn's patient gets closer to the need for major surgery. I can't help but believe that subsequent flares could be averted, or at least minimized, by a better treatment plan. There are probably a few cases where doctors prescribe drug treatment plans, as a "maintenance" or preventative program, but integrated plans, involving customized diet restrictions, are probably as scarce as hen's teeth, if they exist at all.
Evidence for that possibility, (minimal flare risk, due to a continuous treatment program), is evident right here on this board. MC and Crohn's have many characteristics in common, so that there is at least a reasonable chance that techniques that work for one, might work for the other, (note that even the same medications are effective for both diseases). The fact that those of us with MC, are able to maintain remission indefinitely, by faithfully following our treatment program, is pretty strong empirical evidence that the same approach might work for Crohn's disease, for example. And yet, instead of pursuing this approach, doctors continue to treat flares, (which, of course, logically follows, considering their dedication to treating symptoms, rather than treating the cause of so many diseases).
Anyway, to sum up my view of the issue, IMO, since the IBDs are lifetime diseases, with no known cures, continuous treatment is necessary, if flares are to be prevented. Without that continuous treatment, regardless of how great we might feel, I believe that we slowly accumulate damage to the intestines, which will eventually lead to an inevitable flare.
At least, that's the way I see it, FWIW.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Tex, what a great post, putting together in a nutshell the accumulated wisdom of the Forum!
Tex, if MC were just a problem with the colon, then you must be cured after your surgery and can eat whatever you want!!!!
Rosie
Your comment about small intestine importance really caught my eye, because I had been wondering about why I haven't been able to put on weight even though my digestive symptoms are so much better. If MC was just limited to the large intestine, then we shouldn't have the malabsorption problems that are so common. And I do feel that it's taking a long time to heal with the diet. I've been GF, DF, SF and YF since last September, and while I don't have any D, it doesn't take much to have softer and/or more frequent BM's. A bit too much fiber, or over-doing fruit and it takes a few days to get back to Normans. But the general trend is definitely improvement, and I try not to get too impatient, but it's a natural inclination in most of us to push the boundaries......I really believe that one of the concepts that is rarely given it's due, is the fact that for many of us, small intestinal involvement is a major part of our issues.
Tex, if MC were just a problem with the colon, then you must be cured after your surgery and can eat whatever you want!!!!
Rosie
Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time………Thomas Edison
Hahahahaha. I'm sure the GI docs would tell me that, and that would be great, if it turned out to be true, but I don't have the guts, (how's that for a pun,Rosie wrote:Tex, if MC were just a problem with the colon, then you must be cured after your surgery and can eat whatever you want!!!!
), to do that challenge, because I personally believe that the disease is misnamed, (IOW I believe that it affects more than just the colon). Besides, I also have a celiac gene. 
Sooooooooooo, I can't foresee any gluten in my future, (unless I lose my mind, or something. ). Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi All,
As Tex said, we have long noted that some who suffer with MC have other areas of GI involvement - GERD, pancreas problems, gall bladder issues, esophagitis gastritis, to name a few. I agree it does seem as if there might be a lot more involved than just the colon at times. Of course, the term MC refers just to the colon inflammation, colon "itis" (or colitis) just as esophagitis and gastritis are terms that indicate inflammation of those organs specifically. Maybe an umbrella term like "autoimmune gastrointestinal disease" is needed - A.I.G.D.
I believe that the small intestinal disease is primarily due to the associated gluten intolerance (we know that gluten damages the small intestine but not the colon) or maybe in some cases SIBO is the culprit - small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.
And, of course, the major damage to the colon in MC is from the imbalance between the "good" and "bad" bacteria. The body stops recognizing its good bacteria as its own and makes antibodies to it. As the good bacteria is destroyed, the bad bacteria increases, giving us all of symptoms which we are so familar with, unfortunately.
Interesting discussion, for sure.
Love,
Polly
As Tex said, we have long noted that some who suffer with MC have other areas of GI involvement - GERD, pancreas problems, gall bladder issues, esophagitis gastritis, to name a few. I agree it does seem as if there might be a lot more involved than just the colon at times. Of course, the term MC refers just to the colon inflammation, colon "itis" (or colitis) just as esophagitis and gastritis are terms that indicate inflammation of those organs specifically. Maybe an umbrella term like "autoimmune gastrointestinal disease" is needed - A.I.G.D.
I believe that the small intestinal disease is primarily due to the associated gluten intolerance (we know that gluten damages the small intestine but not the colon) or maybe in some cases SIBO is the culprit - small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.
And, of course, the major damage to the colon in MC is from the imbalance between the "good" and "bad" bacteria. The body stops recognizing its good bacteria as its own and makes antibodies to it. As the good bacteria is destroyed, the bad bacteria increases, giving us all of symptoms which we are so familar with, unfortunately.
Interesting discussion, for sure.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Yes, I never thought about other gastro problems possibly being related to MC but I had terrible GERD; heartburn every day and night and always took a Pepcid pill at bedtime. The rest of the time I just endured it, thinking, I suppose, that eating gluten was worth the "burn" but when the other end went haywire it was, of course, too much to endure. Amazing thing to me, was when I stopped gluten, the "burn" went away almost immediately...with a day or so. I still can't believe it's gone as it was soooooo regular. Makes me wonder about all the people that use anti-acid preparations and don't know that at least some of them could eliminate their troubles by giving up gluten. I know I will certainly preach this to GERD sufferers. When I was a kid in grade school I can remember walking a mile to school, and getting a bad stomach ache halfway there and worrying if I would make it in time. When I was in my 20's I had some problems which were diagnosed as "spastic colon". In my 30's I got a diagnosis of "mucous colitis". As a young wife I always had lots of terrible stomach cramps when visiting my husband's family. Social situations seemed to cause symptoms. Before being diagnosed with LC a gastro told me I had IBS because he said "those people" react to social situations. They have a very reactive gut. I can remember telling myself in the midst of a bout of D, well that takes care of things for a couple days, as I am empty. If I could make myself believe it, the cramping would stop. It was like the monster within me. So nowadays that method doesn't work for me anymore. Have been on Asacol for two days now and feeling hopeful but I know it's too soon. Sylvia
Hi Syl,
Interesting history you have there. I didn't have as much trouble as you, but I always said that my gut was my "target organ" - whenever I was anxious/stressed, immediate pooping!
Your observations regarding GERD and gluten are interesting. There's a double whammy there, too, since the proton-pump-inhibitor class of meds has been implicated as an actual CAUSE of MC.
I'm glad you will be carrying the "gluten flag" to other sufferers of GERD.
Keeping fingers crossed for the asacol!
Love,
Polly
Interesting history you have there. I didn't have as much trouble as you, but I always said that my gut was my "target organ" - whenever I was anxious/stressed, immediate pooping!
Your observations regarding GERD and gluten are interesting. There's a double whammy there, too, since the proton-pump-inhibitor class of meds has been implicated as an actual CAUSE of MC.
I'm glad you will be carrying the "gluten flag" to other sufferers of GERD.
Keeping fingers crossed for the asacol!
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Hi Sylvia, I can understand very well your second thought and having critical point of view of most of our diets (mostly after the Enterolab testing), I was too and will stay that.
What convinced me to do the enterolab testing and start the diet was above all the general knowledge on this group. If I compare it with other message board groups, it is not comparable at any level to what all those potty people know. Not only on MC, but also on lots of other health problems and diseases. Also I checked all the information I could find on Dr fine and his lab. What was important for me to know that he is well education mainstream researcher and MD, not just somebody that educated himself something and set up a lab with a website. He also tested his stool test in a proper scientific way. Also everything published on MC and Pepto is originally coming from him. So to me he makes the impression he knows what he is doing. And as Tex always mentioned they only offer lab testing, no other business related to it, what would make it profitable for him to have as much positive test results as possible.
Also the relationship Gluten - MC is mentioned in other scientific research on MC, first of course in the relation with Celiac disease. Also in some other articles different scientist suggested that there might be a relationship between gluten and MC. Also my GI doc mentioned this, a possible relationship between MC and Gluten.
Furthermore almost every IBD and IBS patients seem to do quite well on the paleo and MC diet. The CS diet is just a milder version of paleo. These diets are also free of gluten, soy and diary (CS not completely). The diets are not 100% in line with all the intolerances Enterolab tests on, but in general they follow the same philosophy. I have read the book of cordain on the Paleo Diet and I have reserved the CS diet book at the library.
A 100% scientific proved evidence that the enterolab testing + diet will cure MC, is just not available yet (also because almost no research is done expect for Dr Fine and there seems to be some kind of curse on admitting there might be a relationship between food and IBD in general in mainstream medicine). However when I add everything together in my own personal research I am pretty convinced about the relationship food intolerances and MC.
What convinced me to do the enterolab testing and start the diet was above all the general knowledge on this group. If I compare it with other message board groups, it is not comparable at any level to what all those potty people know. Not only on MC, but also on lots of other health problems and diseases. Also I checked all the information I could find on Dr fine and his lab. What was important for me to know that he is well education mainstream researcher and MD, not just somebody that educated himself something and set up a lab with a website. He also tested his stool test in a proper scientific way. Also everything published on MC and Pepto is originally coming from him. So to me he makes the impression he knows what he is doing. And as Tex always mentioned they only offer lab testing, no other business related to it, what would make it profitable for him to have as much positive test results as possible.
Also the relationship Gluten - MC is mentioned in other scientific research on MC, first of course in the relation with Celiac disease. Also in some other articles different scientist suggested that there might be a relationship between gluten and MC. Also my GI doc mentioned this, a possible relationship between MC and Gluten.
Furthermore almost every IBD and IBS patients seem to do quite well on the paleo and MC diet. The CS diet is just a milder version of paleo. These diets are also free of gluten, soy and diary (CS not completely). The diets are not 100% in line with all the intolerances Enterolab tests on, but in general they follow the same philosophy. I have read the book of cordain on the Paleo Diet and I have reserved the CS diet book at the library.
A 100% scientific proved evidence that the enterolab testing + diet will cure MC, is just not available yet (also because almost no research is done expect for Dr Fine and there seems to be some kind of curse on admitting there might be a relationship between food and IBD in general in mainstream medicine). However when I add everything together in my own personal research I am pretty convinced about the relationship food intolerances and MC.
-
Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8332
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
blending in the wholistic outlook ........ in acupuncture world there are The Twelve Main Meridian Lines
if there is inflammation or stress on any of the organs along line then your body will react (brusing, joint pain etc etc as discussed in other posts)
mindful that amonst the 12 meridians..... 6 of them are related to the digestion process and interconnect with other parts of the body.
a bit like lyn - i had a short path from symptoms to diagnosis, I am only taking small dose of questran lite of a night, and loperamide for important meetings/ or when evil waitress did not pass instructions onto the chef on my 2nd attempt to eat out.... aside from that i am controlling symptoms via diet, liquid zinc, multi vitamin, golden seal, regular acupuncture.
as the digestion process is at the core of our body, all the meridians run through the core. If it is inflammed or under stress then whole meridian from toe to head is affected..........
If i have cramping/pain in my stomach area, if i put my hand on my stomach I can normally feel 'hot spots' through the skin where the inflamation is.
For Info.......
The twelve main meridian lines have been named after six “zang” and six “fu” organs. The relationship between the organ and the meridian exists in the functioning of the organs rather than in the actual organ itself.
1. The Lung Meridian – is the intake of Qi energy from the air for use by the body, and to build up resistance against any external intrusions. It also eliminates gasses that are not needed in the body through exhalation.
2. The Large Intestine Meridian – this meridian helps the function of the lung, and secretes and excretes from inside and outside the body. It also eliminates the stagnation of Qi energy.
3. The Spleen Meridian – is involved in digestion and the process of fermentation. In modern terms, the spleen is considered as being the pancreas, and the pancreas governs general digestion, and reproductive hormones related to the breasts and ovaries. Mental fatigue has a negative effect on the spleen and a lack of exercise will cause problems with digestion and also with the secretion of hormones.
4. The Stomach Meridian – this meridian is involved in the functioning of the stomach, esophagus, and duodenum, as well as the functioning of the reproductive, lactation, ovary, and appetite mechanism. It is also involved in the menstrual cycle.
5. The Heart Meridian – this represents compassion and thus governs emotions and the spirit. It is also responsible for the circulation of the blood and the total body through the brain and the five senses. This meridian is also the mechanism that adapts external stimulation to the body’s internal environment.
6. The Small Intestine Meridian – the small intestine governs the total body through the displacement and digestion of food. Anxiety, anger, nervous shock, and emotional excitement can affect the circulation of the blood, and the small intestine can actually cause blood stagnation that affects the body as a whole.
7. The Kidney Meridian - this meridian controls the spirit and energy to the body and governs resistance against mental stress by controlling hormone secretions. It also detoxifies and purifies the blood.
8. The Bladder Meridian – this is related to the mid-brain which cooperates with the kidney system and the pituitary gland. It is also connected to the autonomic nervous system related to the reproductive and urinary organs. It is also responsible for expelling urine.
9. The Heart Constrictor (Pericardium) Meridian – this meridian acts as a supplemental function of the heart related to the circulatory system, which includes the heart sac, the cardiac arteries and the system of arteries and veins. It is also responsible for total nutrition.
10. The Triple Heater (Sanjao) Meridian – this meridian acts as a supplemental function of the small intestine, and also controls the spirit and visceral organs that circulate energy to the entire body. It also protects the function of the lymphatic system. The upper heat is related to the chest, the middle heat to the solar plexus, and the heat above the navel and below is related to the peritoneum, as well as circulation to the extremities.
11. The Liver Meridian – this meridian stores nutrients and energy for physical activities. It also helps resists against disease and supplies, analyses and detoxifies blood in order to maintain physical energy.
12. The Gall Bladder Meridian – this meridian distributes nutrients throughout the body and balances the total energy through the help of internal hormones and secretions include bile, saliva, gastric acid, insulin, and intestinal hormones.
if there is inflammation or stress on any of the organs along line then your body will react (brusing, joint pain etc etc as discussed in other posts)
mindful that amonst the 12 meridians..... 6 of them are related to the digestion process and interconnect with other parts of the body.
a bit like lyn - i had a short path from symptoms to diagnosis, I am only taking small dose of questran lite of a night, and loperamide for important meetings/ or when evil waitress did not pass instructions onto the chef on my 2nd attempt to eat out.... aside from that i am controlling symptoms via diet, liquid zinc, multi vitamin, golden seal, regular acupuncture.
as the digestion process is at the core of our body, all the meridians run through the core. If it is inflammed or under stress then whole meridian from toe to head is affected..........
If i have cramping/pain in my stomach area, if i put my hand on my stomach I can normally feel 'hot spots' through the skin where the inflamation is.
For Info.......
The twelve main meridian lines have been named after six “zang” and six “fu” organs. The relationship between the organ and the meridian exists in the functioning of the organs rather than in the actual organ itself.
1. The Lung Meridian – is the intake of Qi energy from the air for use by the body, and to build up resistance against any external intrusions. It also eliminates gasses that are not needed in the body through exhalation.
2. The Large Intestine Meridian – this meridian helps the function of the lung, and secretes and excretes from inside and outside the body. It also eliminates the stagnation of Qi energy.
3. The Spleen Meridian – is involved in digestion and the process of fermentation. In modern terms, the spleen is considered as being the pancreas, and the pancreas governs general digestion, and reproductive hormones related to the breasts and ovaries. Mental fatigue has a negative effect on the spleen and a lack of exercise will cause problems with digestion and also with the secretion of hormones.
4. The Stomach Meridian – this meridian is involved in the functioning of the stomach, esophagus, and duodenum, as well as the functioning of the reproductive, lactation, ovary, and appetite mechanism. It is also involved in the menstrual cycle.
5. The Heart Meridian – this represents compassion and thus governs emotions and the spirit. It is also responsible for the circulation of the blood and the total body through the brain and the five senses. This meridian is also the mechanism that adapts external stimulation to the body’s internal environment.
6. The Small Intestine Meridian – the small intestine governs the total body through the displacement and digestion of food. Anxiety, anger, nervous shock, and emotional excitement can affect the circulation of the blood, and the small intestine can actually cause blood stagnation that affects the body as a whole.
7. The Kidney Meridian - this meridian controls the spirit and energy to the body and governs resistance against mental stress by controlling hormone secretions. It also detoxifies and purifies the blood.
8. The Bladder Meridian – this is related to the mid-brain which cooperates with the kidney system and the pituitary gland. It is also connected to the autonomic nervous system related to the reproductive and urinary organs. It is also responsible for expelling urine.
9. The Heart Constrictor (Pericardium) Meridian – this meridian acts as a supplemental function of the heart related to the circulatory system, which includes the heart sac, the cardiac arteries and the system of arteries and veins. It is also responsible for total nutrition.
10. The Triple Heater (Sanjao) Meridian – this meridian acts as a supplemental function of the small intestine, and also controls the spirit and visceral organs that circulate energy to the entire body. It also protects the function of the lymphatic system. The upper heat is related to the chest, the middle heat to the solar plexus, and the heat above the navel and below is related to the peritoneum, as well as circulation to the extremities.
11. The Liver Meridian – this meridian stores nutrients and energy for physical activities. It also helps resists against disease and supplies, analyses and detoxifies blood in order to maintain physical energy.
12. The Gall Bladder Meridian – this meridian distributes nutrients throughout the body and balances the total energy through the help of internal hormones and secretions include bile, saliva, gastric acid, insulin, and intestinal hormones.
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama