I hope this post might be helpful to others. If you haven't already read this book I definitely would recommend it; "Living Well With Autoimmune Disease". This may be lengthy and I appologize for that. These are some of the things I'm reading in "Living Well With Autoimmune Disease" and finding VERY helpful. The particular subject for the following quote is managing autoimmune disease using both Western medicine and the Holistic approach and the importance of both: According to Tillotson, The Western idea of autoimmunity is that immune system cells go haywire and start attacking healthy cells for no reason. So, in the Western mode, the treatment should be to depress the immune system with drugs such as corticosteroids, or with proteins that block specific parts of the immune system such as interferons. Says Tillotson: "They're looking to inject specific drugs to block the immune system from being able to do what it wants to do. And the "Holy Grail" of autoimmunity is to induce tolerance, where the immune system no longer tries to attack the tissue. These are all ways to trick the immune system into not attacking. This approach is doomed to fail, however, because it lacks a fundamental understanding. The immune system is attacking the tissue because the tissue itself is unhealthy prior to the attack. And in autoimmunity, once a tissue is targeted, the immune system memorizes it, and then continues to attack it. Under those circumstances, if you suppress the immune system, the attack slows down. But after you go off the drug that is suppressing the system, the tissue is further degraded and unhealthy, and it still gets attacked. "
Both Tillotson and Khalsa believe the treatment objective should be to create a nourishing, strengthening, healing, and detoxifying herbal formula-plus dietary and lifestyle recommendations.
Khalsa lends additional perspective to this issue. He believes (and I tend to agree with this based on reading what others have posted on this forum and what I'm reading) you must identify some of the general health triggers that allow for the autoimmunity condition to take place: "As people begin to degenerate and experience imbalance, they begin to develop inflammation in various places. Why does one person get arthritis, another thyroiditis? Because they have a particular familiar tendency, or ate a lot of something that triggers an allergic sensitivity, or for some reason, the immune system didn't have the resources it needed to support appropriate vigilance. Ultimately what works very well is to get healthy. The way to treat this desease and many of these other slipperier, obscure inflammatory and autoimmune deseases is to treat what ails them."
So I break this down to read that although you may use Western medicine to treat your symptoms, a key to dealing with your particular autoimmune disease is also to change your dietary and/or lifestyle to achieve a longer term solution then just taking meds. It seems that many of the medications used also tend to cause many other side effects that may make them risky in taking long term. Perhaps some need these meds to gain some relief but if one goes off them their problems return. I'm still learning so others may have input that disagrees with this. But speaking more along the lines of MC I can see where the above makes sense.
Everybodies input is welcome. This is how I am learning.
Living Well With Autoimmune Disease
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Living Well With Autoimmune Disease
-Life isn’t about waiting for the storm to pass, it’s about learning to dance in the rain-
Kim
Kim
-
Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8332
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
agree totally!Both Tillotson and Khalsa believe the treatment objective should be to create a nourishing, strengthening, healing, and detoxifying herbal formula-plus dietary and lifestyle recommendations.
albeit my acupuncturist will agree, herbs and natural therapies work best when the body is not in stress. these therapies can help reduce inflammation and maintain immunity, he accepts for chronic conditions that use of meds for required period is ok, supplemented with natural.
this is the best option for people that have to work or look after families. 'natural only' can work really well if you are not working and can have a relaxed lifestyle (yeah right!)
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
OK, this is obviously just my opinion, but as I see it, the main reason why Western medicine is so confused about the immune system, is because of the phrase that I highlighted in red. The fact of the matter is, everything happens for a reason, and any scientist should recognize that as a fundamental fact.According to Tillotson, The Western idea of autoimmunity is that immune system cells go haywire and start attacking healthy cells for no reason. So, in the Western mode, the treatment should be to depress the immune system with drugs such as corticosteroids, or with proteins that block specific parts of the immune system such as interferons. Says Tillotson: "They're looking to inject specific drugs to block the immune system from being able to do what it wants to do. And the "Holy Grail" of autoimmunity is to induce tolerance, where the immune system no longer tries to attack the tissue. These are all ways to trick the immune system into not attacking.
Tillotson, himself, is wrong, however, when he makes the incorrect assumption stated in his subsequent discussion, (which I have also highlighted in red). Everything else he says in that quote is correct, though, and he has the right idea, I believe, but unfortunately he assumes that the human tissue that is the target of an autoimmune attack, is "unhealthy". Presumably, he does this because he feels the need to justify his claims about the behavior of the immune system. By doing so, he implies that this is a form of apoptosis, (programmed cell death), when in fact, it is not. In fact, in virtually all cases, the tissue is perfectly healthy, immediately prior to the autoimmune attack. It just happens to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and it becomes the unfortunate victim of collateral damage resulting from an "unnecessary" immune system response against an "intruder", (gluten, for example), which is not actually a threat. The gluten keeps coming, and so the immune system continues the attack, hoping to eradicate it, (which turns out to be an impossible task, since gluten is found in virtually every meal).This approach is doomed to fail, however, because it lacks a fundamental understanding. The immune system is attacking the tissue because the tissue itself is unhealthy prior to the attack. And in autoimmunity, once a tissue is targeted, the immune system memorizes it, and then continues to attack it. Under those circumstances, if you suppress the immune system, the attack slows down. But after you go off the drug that is suppressing the system, the tissue is further degraded and unhealthy, and it still gets attacked. "
The basic premise, however, (that attempting to deactivate the immune system is a totally misguided approach), is correct, IMO, and obviously I agree that the key to success is to modify the diet, in order to prevent the reaction from occurring in the first place.
Thanks for posting that,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
I agree with you Kim, dealing with an autoimmune disease is a combination of both mainstream and alternative - holistic - natural medicine (for me that includes diets/food/lifestyle too). The only problem I have with that, is the holistic part you have to work it out all by yourself. There is "nothing" and there is "everything". There is a range of med's for auto immune disease. They did a lot of research on it, what works, what doesn't work and put a lot of money in fabricating new one (again the power of the pharmaceutical industry). Don't forget there are also a lot of people out there, they just want the medication and are not looking for life change or taking responsibility for their disease. Not into exercise, giving up beer pizza and donut or taking a closer look into their life.
When it comes to the holistic part you are one your own and have to find your own way. Internet is great, but there is some much out there. I still find it quite difficult to figure what makes sense and what is just BS or what is maybe useful for others but not for me.
Like last time when we were talking here about, gluten in meat. I find it very difficult to judge is that is really possible or not. My first reaction is BS, but my second thought well maybe it could make sense. Stranger things has happened to food. But what lacks than is a good scientific explanation why. That you only get by doing research. Since there is no money to earn for the big pills companies, nobody bothers. And we are left with the question, could it be a problem or not and have to figure out ourselves if it can be true or not.
When it comes to the holistic part you are one your own and have to find your own way. Internet is great, but there is some much out there. I still find it quite difficult to figure what makes sense and what is just BS or what is maybe useful for others but not for me.
Like last time when we were talking here about, gluten in meat. I find it very difficult to judge is that is really possible or not. My first reaction is BS, but my second thought well maybe it could make sense. Stranger things has happened to food. But what lacks than is a good scientific explanation why. That you only get by doing research. Since there is no money to earn for the big pills companies, nobody bothers. And we are left with the question, could it be a problem or not and have to figure out ourselves if it can be true or not.
Harma: I agree and understand your point about the pharmaceutical industry not putting the time and money into the research for holistic approach since they would only lose money. As for gluten in meat....hmmmm. I didn't know that was a possibility or as you put it possibly BS. I think that's where your personal common sense has to come into order. If you eat it and it bothers you, Don't. I have found that red meat is tough on me. Such a shame since I love it SOOOO much.
Gabes: It does seem that meds may be necessary in severe situations. And I realize that there are people who, for whatever reason, aren't prepared or willing to make a total lifestyle change. I do work outside the home and taking care of a large family at home but I want to attempt to go as natural as possible. The key word here is 'attempt'
I do take Tramadol occassionally for my joint aches when walking is difficult.
Tex: I too somewhat cringed at the phrase "for no reason" and I agree that there is a reason but it just hasn't been discovered in whole YET! I can tell that you are well versed on MC and autoimmune diseases and value your opinion. With that said, I want to do more research on the other red highlighted comment about the tissue being unhealthy prior to an attack. SO I will hold my tongue on that until I do so.
Overall I think I'm learning that the best approach to this for me is research, educate, trial and error and last but not least the experiences of others to a degree since we are all different. I thank all of you for your input and hope that sharing what I learn might help others.
Gabes: It does seem that meds may be necessary in severe situations. And I realize that there are people who, for whatever reason, aren't prepared or willing to make a total lifestyle change. I do work outside the home and taking care of a large family at home but I want to attempt to go as natural as possible. The key word here is 'attempt'
I do take Tramadol occassionally for my joint aches when walking is difficult.Tex: I too somewhat cringed at the phrase "for no reason" and I agree that there is a reason but it just hasn't been discovered in whole YET! I can tell that you are well versed on MC and autoimmune diseases and value your opinion. With that said, I want to do more research on the other red highlighted comment about the tissue being unhealthy prior to an attack. SO I will hold my tongue on that until I do so.
Overall I think I'm learning that the best approach to this for me is research, educate, trial and error and last but not least the experiences of others to a degree since we are all different. I thank all of you for your input and hope that sharing what I learn might help others.
-Life isn’t about waiting for the storm to pass, it’s about learning to dance in the rain-
Kim
Kim
There has been so much discussion on "natural" vs. "meds". I would imagine that most everyone truly would like to handle MC naturally but there are situations that absolutely require meds whether over the counter or from the doc. I am referring to some of us that lost so much weight that can not afford to go 1 day, 1 month, 8 months or a year and half of D. For myself, I started at 123 lbs and got to 103 (5'5"), wrong 1st diagnosis and 12 months later found a good GI, this website and was put on to Entocort. I did so well that I got off Entocort for about 6 weeks and then the second bout began. Within 2 weeks I had lost the 7 pounds that I had gain plus 4 extra pounds. For me to recover I have to stop the D first and then work out the diet; meds are essential!
I am here to applaud all of you that have been able to do it by diet alone, but keep in mind there are some situations that require meds. Ginny
I am here to applaud all of you that have been able to do it by diet alone, but keep in mind there are some situations that require meds. Ginny
Most definitely! Life's way too short to spend any more of it suffering, than is absolutely necessary.Ginny wrote:but keep in mind there are some situations that require meds
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
-
Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8332
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Tex, Ginny
totally agree.
The body being under health stress for extended periods affects every cell, the longer it is under stress the longer it takes to heal.
Tex and all the original potty people
was talking to my hair dresser on saturday, he mentioned his instant reaction to oats! i got straight on my phone internet and looked up the avenin. He also reacts to Soy so i looked up the soy ingrediet list and wrote it out.
A Big Big thank you. he commented what an amazing site to have all of this information!
For all that have contributed and collated the wealth of information
and looking for this emoticon - i notice that tex has added flying pigs - thanks!
totally agree.
The body being under health stress for extended periods affects every cell, the longer it is under stress the longer it takes to heal.
Tex and all the original potty people
was talking to my hair dresser on saturday, he mentioned his instant reaction to oats! i got straight on my phone internet and looked up the avenin. He also reacts to Soy so i looked up the soy ingrediet list and wrote it out.
A Big Big thank you. he commented what an amazing site to have all of this information!
For all that have contributed and collated the wealth of information
and looking for this emoticon - i notice that tex has added flying pigs - thanks!
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
Admittedly I have skimmed through this thread but only can say that I completely agree w/what Tex has said here.
We are obviously all genetically predisposed towards different reactions to antigens and we will all find different answers in our quest towards finding a life that is as free of the symptoms we all have that brought us here in the first place because we have reached either a diagnosis of a disease or we are still researching.
Yes, we are all different and have chosen different paths, but the overwhelming reality is that nearly ALL of us have discovered genetic intolerances and have modified our diet accordingly. From what I've learned, the physical damage to our bodies because of this that has already occurred is irreversible and we have to live with and treat that accordingly. If we don't change our lifestyle and diet the damage will continue.
We are obviously all genetically predisposed towards different reactions to antigens and we will all find different answers in our quest towards finding a life that is as free of the symptoms we all have that brought us here in the first place because we have reached either a diagnosis of a disease or we are still researching.
Yes, we are all different and have chosen different paths, but the overwhelming reality is that nearly ALL of us have discovered genetic intolerances and have modified our diet accordingly. From what I've learned, the physical damage to our bodies because of this that has already occurred is irreversible and we have to live with and treat that accordingly. If we don't change our lifestyle and diet the damage will continue.
Resolved MC symptoms successfully w/L-Glutamine, Probiotics and Vitamins, GF since 8/'09. DX w/MC 10/'09.
Gabes, thanks for the "hopes" but have had no guilt free days of resting and recouping, had house guests all weekend w/all that entailed and a husband who is no doubt living in the same corporate stress world you live in and left here this AM nearly in tears at what he had on his agenda.
My status as a freelancer doesn't necessarily translate as what you may think. I am only as desirable as my last job performance, which, for someone w/issues of self worth, only results in my trying to one-up myself constantly. I've got a half day off here before my next round of prepping for what is 2 days of scheduled 14 hr. days, which translates into 18 hr. days for me.
My status as a freelancer doesn't necessarily translate as what you may think. I am only as desirable as my last job performance, which, for someone w/issues of self worth, only results in my trying to one-up myself constantly. I've got a half day off here before my next round of prepping for what is 2 days of scheduled 14 hr. days, which translates into 18 hr. days for me.
Resolved MC symptoms successfully w/L-Glutamine, Probiotics and Vitamins, GF since 8/'09. DX w/MC 10/'09.
-
Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8332
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Connie
i totally understand the freelancer status and stress associated! and get the feeling that like me you are a bit of perfectionist and you give 150% to all around you.
in amongst the tiredness is the feeling of fulfillment because it is who you are, you are a giver.
hope the prep goes well and that your body supports you through the week
big hugs
i totally understand the freelancer status and stress associated! and get the feeling that like me you are a bit of perfectionist and you give 150% to all around you.
in amongst the tiredness is the feeling of fulfillment because it is who you are, you are a giver.
hope the prep goes well and that your body supports you through the week
big hugs
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
Thanks for the big hugs, Gabes, although I don't feel I deserve it after my nasty response to Linda earlier. Should not post when I am frustrated.
Just have a lot of stuff I'm dealing with at the moment and have had no time to relax from life. "Perfectionist" is who I am, no amount of therapy has cured me of this. Great for business, bad for me and my personal life.
Just have a lot of stuff I'm dealing with at the moment and have had no time to relax from life. "Perfectionist" is who I am, no amount of therapy has cured me of this. Great for business, bad for me and my personal life.
Resolved MC symptoms successfully w/L-Glutamine, Probiotics and Vitamins, GF since 8/'09. DX w/MC 10/'09.
-
Joefnh
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 2478
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:25 pm
- Location: Southern New Hampshire
Hi Connie I'll chime in for a bit. As a recovering (attempting to) perfectionist I thoroughly understand how hard it can be to orchestrate the imperfect. Its hard to let go control and then have to deal with results that are less than expected.
I read you post and did see the frustration coming through, but I could see it was also driven by true and honest heartfelt concern.
We all have our off days and off posts. The good news is that little issues like this are small compared to dealing with these diseases 24/7; that's where the real battle is.
I have appreciated all your posts and thank you making me feel welcome on this site. the people here have been great. Relax and be sure to take care of yourself
Remember friends don't let friends post when frustrated... LOL
Take care Connie and thanks for all your help.
--Joe
I read you post and did see the frustration coming through, but I could see it was also driven by true and honest heartfelt concern.
We all have our off days and off posts. The good news is that little issues like this are small compared to dealing with these diseases 24/7; that's where the real battle is.
I have appreciated all your posts and thank you making me feel welcome on this site. the people here have been great. Relax and be sure to take care of yourself
Remember friends don't let friends post when frustrated... LOL
Take care Connie and thanks for all your help.
--Joe
Joe
Thank you Joe,
I really appreciate some vindication for my nasty response earlier. I feel awful about that and I'm glad you saw what I meant to say. Not sure that any therapy program can cure the perfectionist in anyone with control issues.
Would have said earlier that I'm having an off week, seems like more of an off month.
Connie
I really appreciate some vindication for my nasty response earlier. I feel awful about that and I'm glad you saw what I meant to say. Not sure that any therapy program can cure the perfectionist in anyone with control issues.
Would have said earlier that I'm having an off week, seems like more of an off month.
Connie
Resolved MC symptoms successfully w/L-Glutamine, Probiotics and Vitamins, GF since 8/'09. DX w/MC 10/'09.