2 celiacs 1 cup

[IDontGiveA]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/scien ... wanted=all

Thought this article might be of interest. The whole bacterial infection theory makes a lot of sense to me, for example the reasoning behind the SCD diet. The technique might be a little extreme, but if it works.....


"Some scientists argue that these studies all point to the same conclusion: when children are deprived of their normal supply of microbes, their immune systems get a poor education. In some people, untutored immune cells become too eager to unleash a storm of inflammation. Instead of killing off invaders, they only damage the host’s own body."

[Joefnh]

Very interesting article. It certainly highlights the issue of the balance of bacteria in the GI tract.

--Joe

[tex]

Actually, though the author of that article gives the impression that this is new "technology", that procedure, (fecal transplants to cure C. diff infections), has been done in England and Norway, for years. As is usually the case with advances in medical treatments, it is slowly being "discovered" by GI docs around the world. Unfortunately, the author misses the point completely, about why this treatment works, (probably because he doesn't have the foggiest idea why it works). I say he misses the point, because he doesn't even offer an explanation of why it works. I've always thought that quasi-scientific articles should either explain why a procedure works, or mention that the reason is unknown, but maybe I expect too much.

It works, because probiotic bacteria have to be "educated", on the job, in order to be capable of establishing a permanent colony, in intestines into which they are newly introduced. Conventional probiotics are cultured in a laboratory setting. Consequently, the first intestine they encounter, belongs to the person who buys them, and eagerly ingests them, anxiously hoping that they will become established, and stabilize their digestive systems. Instead, the probiotic bacteria quickly die out, in a matter hours, or a few days, at the most. The only way that bacteria will actually colonize the gut, is if they have been previously "educated" in a real, live human gut. That's why those life-saving fecal transplants are usually based on a spouse's "donated material". Bacteria-infested fecal material from a stranger, might work just as well, but it probably seems more "palatable" to use material from a spouse. Also, by using material donated by a spouse, the bacteria population profile is much more likely to be suitable for the donee, since couples usually eat the same, or very similar foods, (unless one of them has MC, of course).

Here's where we discussed that procedure over 2 years ago. Note Polly's post at the end of the first page, where she describes why gut bacteria have to be "educated", in order to be capable of colonizing a gut.

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... d+bacteria

From one of my posts in that thread, (on the second page of the thread):

I recall reading about C. diff treatments that involved fecal enemas, based on "donated" fecal matter from a spouse. I've even seen where in Norway, for example, rather than using an enema, they do it by using an endoscope and putting a spray catheter down the biopsy port. They release the fecal mixture just below the stomach, into the first portion of the duodenum. From what I read, some version of this will probably soon be, (if it's not already), the preferred treatment for recurrent C. diff problems.

Here's another mention of the procedure, in a thread from last year:

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... transplant

The point is, it won't do anyone any good to isolate and define the microbiome, unless they recognize that those bacteria have to be "educated", before they can provide anyone with any significant benefits.

The theory that we are too clean these days, may well have some merit, but playing in the dirt is no guarantee that a "robust" , and fault-free immune system will be developed. When I was born, my parents were living in a small farm shack, with absolutely no improvements, (the walls were made of a single layer of pine planks, and when the cold north wind blew, it blew right through the cracks between the boards). Fortunately, after about a year, we moved into a better house, which at least had double layer walls, (though there was no insulation in the walls, back in those days, here in the South). I played in the dirt pretty much every day. The same dirt that the dogs, chickens, and who-knows-what, roamed on. I can vividly remember being wormed, somewhere around the age of 3 or 4, and passing a huge roundworm, (presumably Ascaris Lumbricoides), which seemed to make my mother happy, though I don't recall being too thrilled about it, myself.

So, one would think that my immune system had plenty of challenges, to keep it happy, so that it would develop to be hale and hearty. Unfortunately, though, I've had allergies and various immune system issues, pretty much all my life, starting with severe asthma, which was a major problem when I was growing up. So much for that theory. Lack of immune system challenges may cause problems later in life, but obviously, playing in the dirt, is no guarantee that it won't happen anyway.

Of course, some might argue that if we hadn't killed that poor worm, (or worms - for all I know, there may have been more), things would have turned out differently.

Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

Tex, (and others)

i think there is a hazy area in the 'being too clean' in discussions.

in the era when kids did play in the dirt "What are little boys made of snips and snails and puppy dogs tails"
- we did not have things like staf. infections that were mutated and could not be treated
- we did not have a prevalence of conditions that are of an auto immune nature or such a high cancer rate
- foods were real and not full of preservatives, sugar, chemical ingredients to make them look better last longer, nor had they been picked 2 years prior in a unripenned state, stored for long period of time and then chemically gassed to make them ripen.
(they were also cooked via natural means not fast cooked by microwaves)

Given the prevalence of flus and viruses that are contagious, then day to day hygeine is important.

Given the prevalence of auto immune conditions, cancer and the majority population general day to day health, then i think it is important to embrace a 'pure' attitude to eating and lifestyle (the word pure instead of clean) If people were eating 'real foods' then technically they should get the necessary good bacteria from those foods.

sitting children in the dirt while we feed them foods that are full of preservatives and chemicals is not going to make them healthy!

I dont believe the basis of the prevelance and intensity of current health issues can be linked to a lifestyle that is too clean. (to me it is total BS)
we need to look at what Big Pharma has done to our society
we need to look at our foods and lifestyles

[tex]

we did not have things like staf. infections that were mutated and could not be treated

Actually, we did. The antibiotic-resistant species have always been here, but back in those days we controlled them with something that actually worked, (and still works), plain old soap and water. Now, they try to fight them with antibiotics, to which they are resistant, (and to which they have always been resistant). Believe it or not, soap and water still kills them, just like it always did. That's what I used, to control a MRSA infection that I had, a little less than 2 years ago. I was lucky, and they didn't get into my bloodstream. If they should get into your bloodstream, then obviously, soap and water ain't gonna work.

I suspect that this:

- we did not have a prevalence of conditions that are of an auto immune nature or such a high cancer rate

is a direct result of these changes:

- foods were real and not full of preservatives, sugar, chemical ingredients to make them look better last longer, nor had they been picked 2 years prior in a unripenned state, stored for long period of time and then chemically gassed to make them ripen.
(they were also cooked via natural means not fast cooked by microwaves)

Also, we ate locally produced foods, for the most part, rather than foods produced thousands of miles away, in environments that add pathogens for which we have no natural defenses, and for which we do not have the mix of gut bacteria needed for optimum digestion.

If people were eating 'real foods' then technically they should get the necessary good bacteria from those foods.

I believe that is truly the key to the resolution of the issue. For example, the problems with milk, began when the government required that it must be pasteurized before it can be marketed. That was before refrigeration was generally available, so it lengthened the period of time that milk would remain fresh. However, the pasteurization process not only kills bacteria, but it also kills all the natural enzumes that cows put into milk, to make it easier to digest. Did you know that baby calves cannot survive on pasteurized cow's milk? Without those enzymes, they will get severe diarrhea, and die. Without those enzymes, milk is very difficult for any creature to digest, including humans. Refrigeration is readily available now, so why are we still pasteurizing milk?

I dont believe the basis of the prevelance and intensity of current health issues can be linked to a lifestyle that is too clean. (to me it is total BS)
we need to look at what Big Pharma has done to our society
we need to look at our foods and lifestyles

I totally agree with you, Gabes - you are spot on. I would also add government-mandated treatments to your list of things that we need to blame for some of our troubles.

As another example, our government requires that all eggs must be sprayed with an oil, (to preserve their shelf life). Guess what kind of oil is approved by the government, and used by virtually all commercial egg producers. Yep - soy bean oil. Does any of it soak through the shell? Probably, because the reason it is used, is to minimize the porosity of egg shells, so that bacteria cannot enter. (Of course, government scientists tell us that absorption of the oil, is a minimal problem). The only eggs that can be bought without that treatment, are eggs that are bought from a local producer, (IOW, eggs that do not have to meet the legal requirements of eggs sold in the supermarkets).

Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

so now i have to look for gluten free and SOY free eggs! he he he he he........

Interestingly in the last month of so i have seen a definately increase in 'soy free' products in the 'healthy isle' of our supermarkets. Yesterday i saw three new cereal products that were not only GF/YF/DF/Nut F/ which most of them are, there were the new ones that were Soy Free.
so the demand for SF has increased in this part of the world.

reading these articles and the content of our discussions, more and more i really want to be self sufficient in relation to my foods, if i could grow/cultivate/control the production at least 50% of my foods I will be alot better off. (health wise and probably financially!)

as i ponder our discussion and the content of these articles, i realise that people are looking at these situations in the 'big pharma' mentality. they are treating a symptom, not the root cause.

[Polly]

Interesting discussion. I agree completely. I am very suspicious of our food supply and am increasingly trying to eat local/organic/free range as much as possible. Tex, I hadn't thought about the different pathogens on non-local foods - that could be a major issue, couldn't it, with what we are learning about the importance of our resident gut bacteria? Of course, a disruption of our gut bacteria is the basis of our MC to begin with. Gabes, have you begun your own vegetable gardening yet? Apparently you can even do a lot with containers if your only space is a porch or deck. I read an article last week about how popular it is becoming to raise your own chickens again.

Love,

Polly

[IDontGiveA]

Wow... awesome discussion, right up my alley, Im thoroughly impressed. As polly indicated, Im also convinced that gut bacteria is the basis for most digestive diseases. Once again, I am indebted to Tex, Polly and others on this board for my further enlightenment, Thank you all. Educated bacteria - thats freaking awesome. This article was the first time I had heard of the fecal implant technique, and I think the best part of the article is at the end when the admit that they really have no idea what there talking about. I must say however, the educated bacteria theory makes a lot of sense. Makes me almost want to try this procedure... I dont know what my wife would say though. If I understand correctly, this may also be why something like the SC diet does not work for everyone. Even if you kill off a lot of the bad bacteria, if you no longer have the good bacteria and you are not able to implant any bacteria 'educated' enough to stay, the baddies will still come back....

As for the food, dont get me started. I agree with most of the discussion above, and think its a huge issue, probably one of the most important we are all facing. I feel so strongly about it in fact, that is was one of the main reasons I left the US and now live in an area where most all of my food is locally sourced. It really is a travesty what is and has happened to the food supply in the US. Doubly so because most of the world is bent on emulated the US no matter how harmful it may be. For those that are not familiar , I would highly recommend the book 'Omnivores Dilemma' or the film based on it 'Food Inc' if you are interested in the subject.

Thanks,

Tony

[Polly]

Hi Tony, and thank you for bringing this topic up! I agree that it is of utmost importance to us MCers. I'm with you - I have actually considered the fecal implant. (YOU must be an early-adopter too! LOL!)
If you decide to do it, I'll be most interested.

There is tremendous interest now in the body's resident bacteria. I read that it is even possible to identify exactly who has used the computer last based upon the bacteria profile (each person's is different).

Tell us more about your move to Brazil, please. How does the food supply there differ?

Love,

Polly

[mbeezie]

Interesting thread.

I'm on board with all of this too. Like Polly and many others, I too am very suspicious of our food supply. I truly beleive that our food supply is the source of our current issues, along with overuse of antibiotics. We definitely eat organic, local and hormone/antibiotic free when possible. We are working on our edible back yard with a nice sized garden and fruit trees. In my work with others I really promote cooking from scratch. I have started a blog with recipes (GF/DF/SF) and helpful information. www.foodsensitivtyrd.com

Polly, you have no evidence of MC after your last colonoscopy and you achieved this by diet alone. You actually didn't need the poop transplant. That speaks volumes about the healing powers of the right food.

Mary Beth

[Joefnh]

Gabes very very good points. Around the dinner table while we were kids, the grandparents would always chime in and complain about all the anti-bacterial soaps, altered foods, shots etc... I remember a very insightful comment by my grandfather "If our kids are made to live in a germ free bubble, how can they ever go outside and enjoy a mud pie". Grandpa O'Bannon was known for his often sage if not colorful comments, I wish I kept a list of them.

From that very basic statement the wisdom is apparent. We have to remember we live on a planet that most species survive by striking a balance with nature, not trying to alter or conquer it. It seems to me historically that we tend to get into the most trouble when we try to alter nature to suit us.

--Joe

[tex]

It seems to me historically that we tend to get into the most trouble when we try to alter nature to suit us.

Joe, I see you're carrying on Grandpa O'Bannon's tradition of sage comments.

I certainly agree with that remark. The discovery of the use of tools, by our ancient ancestors, was what initially set them on a trajectory that allowed him to reach the top of the food chain. For a million years, (more or less), that seemed to work OK, but as hunting techniques became more "creative", (such as the use of fire to drive entire herds of grazing animals over cliffs), our ancient ancestors gradually began to develop more aggressive techniques for "altering nature", to suit their purposes, and eventually, of course, population dynamics led to the depletion of prey species, to the extent that in order to survive, it became necessary to embrace the concept of altering nature on a wholesale basis, and agriculture was "born".

That was the point, (roughly 10,000 years ago), at which the changes were put into motion, that slowly but surely led to our current sad situation. We have by now, seemingly altered nature in just about every way conceivable, (and yet we continue to discover new ways to alter nature on an almost daily basis), and as a result, our species has prospered. We inhabit virtually every inhabitable niche on this planet, and many locations that obviously shouldn't be inhabited. We are now technologically rich, but we are nutritionally poor. We have altered nature so much, that we live in a world which is increasingly synthetic, with little resemblance to what it once was. For many, even this is not enough, and they prefer to live in a "virtual" world, spending many hours every day, acting out their lives through an avatar, in a virtual world, on the internet. For anyone who isn't familiar with the virtual world communities that I'm referring to, here's a description:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_world

To my way of thinking, that's the ultimate form of altering nature, (even though no physical changes to nature are actually involved - only virtual changes are made). Of course, the appeal of the virtual world communities, is that they allow one to leave the troubles of the real world behind, to lead a fantasy life. Perhaps that is the ultimate goal of the concept of alternating nature.

Tex

[IDontGiveA]

Very good points again, Im really enjoying this thread. I must admit, it has taken quite a different turn than I expected. Again, I could type all day on this subject. Instead I will reaffirm my book suggestion above for those who may not be familiar with it. There really is no need to be suspicious of our food supply. It is a well documented fact that what now passes for food is making many people ill. The suspicious part is how many people are unaware of that fact. I guess it could have something to do with Joe´s Einstein quote. You also make a great point Joe. Its all about balance, both inside and outside your gut.

@Gabes + @Mary Beth - Absolutely, Grow your Own! IMO if you want real food these days you have no choice (unless you know your local grower) I also think that it will be the wave of the future, in a very real way....

@polly - thanks for your interest, again another subject I can go on forever about, so Ill try to keep it short. As I mentioned before, aside from my wife the biggest reason I moved to brazil was the food/health. This really started years prior from several different trips I made outside the US. I almost always noticed a marked improvement in how I felt and in my overall digestion. I became more and more convinced that the main reason for this was the quality of the food - less processed, and fresher. I also now think that a lot of it was the lack of gluten and soy. After my health continued to deteriorate I decided to move somewhere the food was more local and or I could grow most of my own. As far as the food, it is night and day different from what you typically find in the US. Some examples; The food stores here dont have near the variety, however most fruit and veggies are locally grown. The beef is all grass fed, I get whole raw milk delivered to my door. Locally raised chicken and eggs are available as well. One last example, wheat was not known in Brazil until the 50s or 60s. Instead, people ate what the Indians ate - yucca or cassava root. Its amazing what they make out of it. Everything from 'cheese bread' to flour. Its still the staple in many parts of Brazil.
All of this is not the result of some enlightened policy however, quite the opposite. Being a 'developing nation' Brazil lacks a lot of the infrastructure, and money (govt subsidies) to process and transport food like the US. What really blows me away is how everywhere Ive been that is so rich naturally and culturally still has so many people that just want to eat McDs and watch Britney Spears on TV.....

[Joefnh]

Tex thanks for the compliment, in a rare moment I can come up with a good one. 'Grampy O' as he was called was not an educated individual. He was a stone cutter by trade and had come over from Ireland in 1924 but for all intensive purposes was one of the wisest men I have ever known.

He often talked about the price that we would all pay for all the supposed 'advancement'... When I was younger I always thought he was just a bit backward and not that smart. It was not until my teens did I start to see how truly wise he was.

On a more focused comment to this thread, it really has not been until the last 300 -500 years that grains have made their appearance as a staple food for the masses and the last 10 -100 years had they been altered to the degree that made them no longer the original species that our ancestors did eat. Overall even 100 - 200 years ago out diets were for the most part like the paleo diet that has been discussed on this board on several posts and really was dictated by what part of the world we lived in. The local ecosystem dictated what was compatible to survive there and that's what we ate.

IMHO our bodies just are not designed for all the intake of the grains as discussed earlier in this thread, and certainly are not designed for the products of processed foods. it's no wonder we are seeing the level of intolerance's that we do.

--Joe

[Gabes-Apg]

Polly/Tony
unfortunately my current living arrangements are not conjusive to having my own vege garden (even in temporary pots etc) hence my desire to relocate to a town/area 2 hours west of brisbane, get a place where i can have my garden and a dog. and i will be in a region where there are lots of farms and can establish relationships direct with growers.

i will consider having chooks, ensuring they are feed gluten free/soy free foods.

it is the main goal i am working towards at the moment. I get vacancy alerts for the region every day.