milk/casein issue??

[willabec]

ok....went back to the naturopath last week for the results of an allergy blood test.....the only thing that came back on the elevated level was milk.....my question is, on sunday i had gf pancakes that i made with milk and a little jello mold that was made with cool whip and cottage cheese, on monday i had a little bit of shepards pie (potatoes made with milk) on tues. i had a bagel egg and cheese (one little slice of cheddar), and today, had a gf muffin that i think might have been made with milk. today i went 4x and the last 2x were very loose.....could that little bit of milk/casein have caused the bm's today when the past couple of days have been good????

[tex]

could that little bit of milk/casein have caused the bm's today when the past couple of days have been good????

Sure it could have. We all have individual thresholds, above which we react to certain food sensitivities, (IOW, if we ingest more than that threshold amount, over a certain period of time, we will react. Some of us are much more sensitive than others, so less is required, but we all have our own personal threshold, for each food to which we are sensitive.

If we continue to eat a food that we are sensitive to, (as you apparently did), then eventually, we will react to it, because the antibodies will continue to increase, until they eventually exceed our threshold limit. It usually took me several days to react to casein, too, back when I was still reacting, but most people here, (who are sensitive to casein), react much sooner than that.

Tex

[Deb]

And though I had a "33" enterolab reaction to casein, I am still eating cheese without any noticeable results.

[sarkin]

Interesting about the thresholds, and ALSO interesting that the Enterolab results are not necessarily indicative of the threshold. I believe casein is off the table for me FL (for life). I think it is possible that, once I'm fully healed, I could have a dish that included eggs (not an omelet - more like an egg used in baking as a small percentage of the total). But I was basing that future dream partly on the relative numbers on the Enterolab tests and when I had last eaten the foods for which I tested positive (for eggs, it was quite recent and frequent), and maybe I was bargaining with the universe a little.

It might still turn out to be true, but perhaps not for the reasons I guessed. And it's at least a year or two before I put it to the test... maybe I will have forgotten about eggs by then ;)

I believe my system was primed for an MC disasterby a vacation in January, where my usual 'not so much gluten' diet was interrupted by visiting family, and eating much more wheat than I normally do... increasing the level of 'drip' toward my gluten overflow threshold. So this makes sense to me. OH - I bet I had more dairy than normal at that time, too. (How I wish I had believed myself that those were not my friendly food groups; now I'm glad I know.)

And Deb... say hello to the cheese plate from me! Now I wonder whether tolerating cheese, for some, is not so much about casein vs. lactose, but that mostly we eat very good cheese in small quantities, while saying mmmmm in a thoughtful way (at least, that's what my husband does!).

--Sara

[Deb]

Interesting about the thresholds, and ALSO interesting that the Enterolab results are not necessarily indicative of the threshold

Sara, I think that's true. My enterolab gluten reading was 510. You'd think I would have had more noticeable issues long before I did. (And I had already seriously cut back on regular wheat, though I was eating sprouted flours). And actually I probably did have noticeable issues....I just failed to notice them! :(

[sarkin]

LOL, Deb - I believe I, too, was failing to notice some noticeable issues.

I am still hoping that everything I was blaming on middle age will fade away, but it appears I'm still middle-aged ;)

L,
S

[irisheyes13]

In a conversation I had with an Enterolab nurse recently, she had explained that the positive results aren't necessarily indicative of how severely we react to a particular protein. For instance if your result for soy is 30 units and your result for casein is 15 units, it doesn't mean you are more sensitive to soy than you are to dairy. You should obviously avoid both of these proteins since they are above the normal range. What she did explain is that (in the above example) you developed the sensitivity to soy prior to the sensitivity to casein since the soy reading is higher, your body has been reactive to it longer thus the reason for the higher number. Values can't be compared from one person to another due to various factors including differing IgA levels and antibody production etc.

Thresholds are interesting and how in tune we are to our bodies certainly seems to play into that as well. Looking back I realize I am much more in tune to subtle changes to diet that I probably didn't even notice a year ago. I feel like I have a long way to go and much more to learn with regard to noticing these changes however. It's definitely a work in progress but I'm learning to listen with a much more keen ear these days. I'm taking Enterolab results at face value and avoiding everything which I tested positive for but am hoping to some day have have a small amount of egg without upsetting the apple cart. I can't even think about that for now. Sara, do you think we'll ever truly forget about eggs?! I miss them much more than gluten... how weird is that?

[sarkin]

Kelly,

That's so funny - bread is dead to me, and I don't care if I never eat baked goods again. But breakfast without eggs turns out to be harder than I expected. I'm great for a few days, and then I wonder what I'm really, truly going to eat.

I think it's because we sort of steeled ourselves for the 'blow' of gluten... the one we kind of saw coming. I was pretty geared for losing soy, though I didn't test positive for it, haven't yet re-tested; results might have been lower because I hadn't eaten it for some time. I even considered preparing myself for the eggs result... and am still wondering whether I might be able to eat yolks only, or duck eggs... (a friend of mine suggested hummingbird eggs - which might actually work, just because the dose is so teensy - and even healthier, they're impossible to find).

OR maybe it's because our food addictions and sensitivities are mysteriously intertwined, and I transferred all my garbled brain chemistry about grains to those eggs. I saw subtle differences when I eliminated eggs. I'm not sure whether that will be the last thing, or there's more to learn. Tomatoes rocked the boat a little the other day, though I've eaten them in small quantities - not sure whether it was the preparation, or the skins, or the chemistry of the food itself. Weirdly, I've been tolerating a small amount of tomato in salad for a while - this was cooked, which I'd have guessed would be easier to take. (This could just mean my notes aren't complete enough.)

Hope you're feeling as good as you sound.

Love,
S

[Deb]

What she did explain is that (in the above example) you developed the sensitivity to soy prior to the sensitivity to casein since the soy reading is higher, your body has been reactive to it longer thus the reason for the higher number

That's really interesting, Kelly. With the high reading I got on gluten, I've apparently had issues for a long while. It's funny though, for many years I'd had an inkling that something was up considering all the autoimmune issues I seemed to have. I just didn't know what it was.
I plan to retest after a year and see what's happened.

but it appears I'm still middle-aged

[tex]

And though I had a "33" enterolab reaction to casein, I am still eating cheese without any noticeable results.

I plan to retest after a year and see what's happened.

Retesting is probably an excellent plan, and that's something that very, very few of us do. It will be interesting to see if your gut has noticed any effects from the cheese, and retesting is really the only way to determine that, if you continue to remain asymptomatic.

You're inspiring me to consider doing a casein test, because I never had that particular test, earlier. I just assumed that I was sensitive to it, and I avoided it, but after I was in remission for a couple of years, I found that I could eat it without any noticeable symptoms. Now I'm beginning to wonder if I might actually be sensitive to it, but asymptomatic.

Tex

[Deb]

Tex,
I am especially curious as what to what will happen with the casein level too. My fat score was very high too (though I had failed to quit my fish oil beforehand) so it's probably a good idea to see what's going on with that as well.

[sarkin]

I suspect (for myself, no idea about others) that I might be able to eat a food offender and remain 'asymptomatic' or have vague symptoms only. I was so sick with MC in 1997, and then so seemingly without symptoms till March '11. But I wasn't dramatically sick while continuing to eat eggs, until just last week.

For sure, gut-wrenching symptoms get our attention, but the subtle stuff has to be pretty bad to distract us from just getting our chores done. I've had itchy/flaking ears and occasional ear infections for at least 12 years, usually worse in the allergy season, and now those symptoms are just gone. I sure can't prove that the improvement is related to diet change, and never suspected it at the time.

I also think there may be a cumulative effect - both from too steady a drip of a poorly tolerated but sub-catastrophic food, and also from more than one food offender at once. That's not something I'm willing to prove by testing, though!

I would be interested to know whether my gluten antibodies had gone downafter a couple of years, though a lower score wouldn't persuade me it's safe for me to eat. I feel the same way about dairy. It would be nice if occasional traces of butter on a plate from a restaurant were non-disastrous. (I'm not sure the testing can answer that question accurately, but would be curious anyway.)

Interesting, and complex!

--S

[MBombardier]

Sara, if you lived closer I could give you cockatiel eggs. We toss them with regularity because even though they are unfertilized, there is something icky about eating the eggs of a family pet, though it has crossed our minds...

[sarkin]

Marliss, that is hilarious!

I'd imagine some people consider their poultry birds as a kind of pets... there's currently a flurry of chicken-keeping here in the big city, and I'm guessing for most the mindset is closer to "pets" than "livestock."

In fact, I was hatching (haha) a plot to persuade my neighbor to raise chickens (she has a much bigger yard, and three kids who need chores). But they have moved... and I'm glad I haven't become too friendly with a bunch of chickens, since I can eat the birds, but not the eggs.

I wonder whether anyone *does* eat their pet cockatiel's eggs??? You know someone's thinking about it ;)

Love,
Sara

[Deb]

Sara - Re: flaky ears, I've had that problem for years too. It has improved but it's still there. My scalp was awful too and it's better but not totally cleared. My daughter is currently dealing with eczema, which I had at her age. I haven't had issues with that for years. I've been suggesting eliminating gluten but she's dragging her heels.