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tex
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Post by tex »

Erica,

Yes, it's very controversial information, because like all the other health misinformation that continues to be perpetuated for decades before someone bothers to prove conclusively that it's simply not true, few people question information that's repeated over and over by their doctors and various other health "experts". Remember when we actually thought that animal fat was bad for us (because that's what all the "experts" claimed). Remember when we thought that salt actually caused hypertension . . . that coffee was bad for us . . . that the carbs in grains were healthy, but eating fat would make us fat . . . that artificial sweeteners were helpful for losing weight . . . that eating high cholesterol foods (such as eggs) would cause us to have high cholesterol?
Erica wrote:Why is it that it is encouraged to take a Daily Probiotic. A gimmick line to sell more of it?
Sure. It's a huge (and very profitable) industry. Billions of dollars are spent (wasted) on these products every year. The placebo effect is very powerful. And it's easier to convince people that a product works when they truly want it to work for them. FWIW, if I were teaching Gut Bacteria 101, here is how the first lecture would begin:

Of course as we all know, there are exceptions to every rule, so surely there are rare cases where a probiotic may actually help certain individuals. But for the lion's share of us, probiotic blends are pretty much worthless, because they have virtually no relation to the type of gut bacteria that we originally had. Our gut contains thousands of different species of bacteria — most commercial probiotic products contain far less than a dozen different types. Every person has their own custom blend of gut bacteria, and that gut bacteria profile began to develop when they were born (as they picked up bacteria from their mother while going down the birth canal), and their gut bacteria profile was modified daily by their environment (especially early on). Every time we change our diet, or move to a different location, (or take an antibiotic) our gut bacteria profile changes. But mostly, our gut bacteria profile is determined by our diet. So there is no way that anything we could possibly buy would match what we would need to correctly replace our existing or previous gut bacteria.

And here's the big fly in the ointment that most probiotics users are unaware of: No gut bacteria are capable of attaching to the gut wall and establishing a colony unless they originally came from another human gut. Think about that. Pathogenic bacteria are able to attach, because they came from someone else's gut. Bacteria transferred by means of a fecal transplant can attach and reproduce, because they developed in a human gut. But all commercial probiotic products are created in a laboratory setting, just on a larger basis. Because of that, there is no way they can possibly attach and reproduce in a human gut. And this is critically important because unless they can attach and establish a colony, they are pretty much worthless to us, except as a means of temporarily filling those parking spaces in the gut, until properly-educated bacteria come along (that is, bacteria that were educated in a human gut).

So that's why probiotics must be taken daily (because they are transients, and can never become permanent residents), and that's why probiotics are a cruel hoax. They can never actually replace our gut bacteria, because they are created in a lab (not in a human gut), and of course they are almost surely not the type of bacteria that our gut would need (based on our own history), anyway.

Tex
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

Erica,
Great news on the poop!!,

So now you have your safe basics, that at any time if you are unwell, stressed etc, this eating plan is the one to go back to..

I will encourage you to stay on the current limited eating as long as you can/as much as possible.
Good healing now will be hugely beneficial to long term wellness. Don't be too keen to add things in.

Once you do start adding new things, go really slow. Small serves, ie not much bigger than an egg cup serve size, for three days in a row. Only add one new thing at a time and spread out the time between new things. Too much too soon and you could undo the hard work of the past month.
Once you know that new ingredient is ok, only have it a few times a week, and keep your safe basics as the basis of your eating plan...

This is the rainbow after the storm.... The hug from the universe that you are on the right path....
Keep up the mental and emotional work. There are a few months of keeping it simple food wise for good healing. Sticking to the low inflammation gut healing eating plan for the next few months means you can enjoy thanksgiving and Christmas with some Erica safe treats!!!

Hugs xo
Gabes Ryan

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Post by Erica P-G »

Thanks Tex,
I believe you are spot on with your opinion regarding probiotics. I'm not one to beat around the bush and if it sounds to good to be true, its best to heed the warning signs! I never thought about bacteria as Resident or Transient, doesn't surprise me that our bodies look it that way. I often hope for true helpful finds in life, but I find it is the simple basic ways to things that are the true path to living, take for example the basic way to eat with MC. It is a mind blower that we've been filled full of rubbish about needing to eat so many things to keep our bodies healthy, when if you step back a baker dozen of items will suffice in a pinch. Us MC'ers are proof of that! I have maintained my weight at 141 being 5' 9" for the last 3 months on just a small rotation of things. I'm not gonna say I feel perfect because I think I can do better in the energy dept, but that will happen over time and I have faith in that feeling.

Gabes :grin:
I'm not ready to think I am having Normans yet due to all this antibacterial medication I've been on recently and currently. I sure hope my body is giving me thumbs up to some healing, it sure feels like a long time a coming. I will definitely keep this current diet going, it really isn't a bad diet either. This is what I am doing that works for me:
The Cravings Place pancake mix (uses water to mix it - don't need egg replacer or oil), a little bit of Log Cabin no HFCS
Jimmy Dean Turkey Sausage
Hormel Natural Deli turkey
Rice Chex w/Cinnamon, Coconut milk (sweet or unsweetened)
Cornish Hen Bone broth with carrots, celery with sea salt an Pink Himalayan salt (I alternate white rice and Tinkyada gluten free pasta in it)
Cashews (1/4 cup only once a day or every other day)
Natural potato chips (just a few here and there, ingredients potato, safflower oil and salt)
Fine-Ly Made GF, DF, SF, EggF bread (a local company, so glad its available, I can have toast now)
Small can of Mountain Dew 7.5 oz (yes its BAD for me, but it is my only splurge and I only do it once a day or so and I don't seem to see any reaction to the sugar)
Coconut Milk
Water

I don't eat all these in one day either, I rotate it all the time. The last list I made a couple weeks ago I pared it down a few items and these are the ones that seem to work ok.

If I could hug you Gabes and everyone else that has given me such uplifting words I would :grouphug: I'm sure I will still need questions answered even if my MC is looking pretty classic at this point. I also want to be a positive voice for anyone needing it too. I'm learning boundaries, and realistic needs, whereas I once felt like a Super Mom, I don't put myself out there as frequently as I used to.

I'll be sure to keep listening to my body and wont introduce a new food until if Feels Right :wink:

Love & Hugs
Erica
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Post by Erica P-G »

I have a question about our immune system and MC.

I'm starting to notice that I think my immune system is fighting areas in my body it doesn't need to be right now. It used to be concentrated on my gut, but now I think since my sinusitis has cleared up and the lymph node under my left jaw has dissipated my left tonsil wants to get in on the act! Plus thigh aches that resemble flu symptoms but I know I don't have the flu. I doctored myself up with a good dose of Magnesium this morning and I will do it again tonight, I hope that is beneficial to what ails me at the moment.

Has anyone gone thru this where their body has gone on an all out attack as the gut started healing due to the diet changes etc....

I was reading on the website from Mark Hyman about the 9 things you can do to get your body to stop attacking itself....well I seem to be on track with all that he has mentioned, I'm just curious if there is anything else to be on alert about regarding the immune system and when is it important to go back to the Dr.?

It's as if the immune system is trying to find something else to deal with so its attacking at random. I have no other explanation for not feeling well since early May when I was probably starting to heal during that time, hence the immune system changed course onto something else.
Thanks
Erica
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

Hearing that there is improvement is better than a hug xo

The pain, niggles you mention happened to me, not sure if it is the immune system or just the toxins etc coming out of our joints and muscles and leaving our body.

Magnesium spray and Epsom salt baths can help this process. Keep in mind that your body is going through a chemical change... Years of gluten antibodies are leaving!! Good riddance!
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Post by Erica P-G »

Thank you for the quick reply Gabes!

Oh goodness me...well this phase I should be rejoicing in then! It sure doesn't feel very good though. Hope it doesn't last too long either, but I suspect once that nasty gluten is mostly removed I ought to start feeling much better. I can't believe how hindered the body gets and how bad it feels as its leaving.

Good Riddance Indeed!

When might it be safe to introduce the multivitamin since I'm not going to introduce a new food for a while?
Thanks
Erica
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

If you google leaky gut, there are some good articles -videos that explain what has happened.

If it was me, I wouldn't do multi just yet. Too many ingredients, if you react, hard to know what you are reacting to.... Stick with Vit D3 and mag for a while...
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Post by Erica P-G »

I will do that!
Thanks Gabes :bigbighug:
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

This is a good one - explains cell health well.

http://solvingleakygut.com
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Post by Erica P-G »

Very informative link!
Thanks Gabes :grin:
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Post by tex »

Erica wrote:It's as if the immune system is trying to find something else to deal with so its attacking at random. I have no other explanation for not feeling well since early May when I was probably starting to heal during that time, hence the immune system changed course onto something else.


That's the topic of chapter 10 in the book. In case you don't have a copy, since it's a relatively short chapter, I'll quote it here:
Chapter 10


An Immune System Quirk


Our immune system may have a programmed hierarchy that determines its focus


While our immune system is always alert to any perceived threats to our health, when confronted with multiple food sensitivities it seems to concentrate on the most significant single issue at any moment in time. That is to say, it appears to focus on the one food sensitivity that is likely to do the most damage to the digestive system and to long-term health.

That doesn’t mean that it will totally ignore secondary food sensitivities, but it suggests that the immune system will concentrate most of its attention on the one that it perceives as the most important threat at the moment, while postponing or minimizing action on the other food sensitivities. That implies that the immune system may have a pre-established hierarchy that it follows, when determining which food sensitivity should be the primary focus of its attention.

As we discovered in chapter six, based on the compiled experiences of hundreds of people who have microscopic colitis, the number one food sensitivity threat as perceived by the immune systems of those individuals is gluten. Casein, the primary protein in all dairy products, appears to rank number two in this hierarchy, while the third-ranking food sensitivity is usually soy. Whether by coincidence or design, it appears that this ranking also correlates with the relative probability of someone with microscopic colitis being sensitive to each of those respective foods. That is to say, gluten is the most common food sensitivity among people with microscopic colitis, casein is the second most likely food sensitivity, and soy is the third most likely food sensitivity.

This information can be very important to someone trying to control their symptoms by diet
Many MC patients who have decided to see if diet changes will reduce or eliminate their symptoms, will start by eliminating only gluten from their diet. In many cases, though not always, after a few weeks, more or less, they will discover that they are feeling much better and the intensity of their symptoms are definitely diminishing. Some will even reach remission. After the passage or more time, though, if gluten is the only food that is being avoided, most people in this situation will experience a relapse of symptoms, and from that point on their symptoms will progressively become worse as time goes by. This very frustrating turn of events inspires many people to make the mistaken decision that they must not be sensitive to gluten after all, since they are back in a full flare of symptoms. However, there is more to this dilemma than meets the eye.

In my opinion, this is simply a real-life demonstration of a quirk of the immune system that causes it to focus its attention on only the single threat that it considers to be the most serious of all those with which it is confronted at any given time. When gluten is withdrawn from the diet, antibody production does not cease immediately. In fact, the immune system will continue to produce antibodies for a very long period of time, at a slowly decaying rate, as it continues to remain at a high alert level, remaining vigilant just in case gluten should reappear in the diet.

Anti-gliadin antibodies have a relatively long half-life (120 days), so it typically takes them months to decay, and to be eliminated from the system. Eventually, a point will be reached where the anti-gliadin antibody level has decayed to below the threshold where a reaction is triggered, and after that point is reached, the clinical symptoms will begin to fade away and remission may occur. At some point, the immune system will cease to focus its attention entirely on anti-gliadin antibodies and it will begin to be responsive to other threats.

The immune system will then turn its attention to the next available food in the hierarchy of food sensitivities with which it is faced, and that will typically be casein, assuming that casein remains in the diet and the individual is actually sensitive to casein. The immune system will begin to aggressively produce anti-casein antibodies, and at some point, the casein antibody level will exceed the minimum threshold level required to trigger a reaction. At that point, the inflammation process will flare out of control again, due to a reaction against casein.

If casein is withdrawn from the diet, then the level of anti-casein antibodies will begin to decline much faster than the rate at which anti-gliadin antibodies decay, and at some point, the immune system will turn its attention to the next item in the hierarchy of potential threats. Experience shows that this cycle will be repeated until no more food sensitivities are present in the diet. Of course, if the person going through this procedure were to eliminate all of his or her food sensitivities at the start of the process, all of the secondary and subsequent reactions could be avoided.

This concept of an immune system hierarchy is strictly a theory and I am not aware of any scientific proof of the concept. However, as evidence that the logic is sound, note that a precedent exists to demonstrate that this concept does indeed have merit. Extensive research has demonstrated that treatment of inflammatory bowel disease and other autoimmune issues by helminth therapy is extremely effective at bringing remission of symptoms.1 In essence, the presence of parasitic worms in the intestines causes the immune system to focus on them, and as a result, the inflammatory reaction causing an IBD or some other autoimmune issue will virtually always disappear, bringing remission of clinical symptoms to the patient. If the helminths are not replaced as they reach the end of their life cycle, the previous symptoms will return as the helminth population in the intestines dwindles. Clearly, helminths are either at or near the top of the hierarchy.

In other words, the immune system perceives the parasites as a more serious threat than whatever is causing the IBD or any other autoimmune reaction. As a result, it withdraws its attention from the perpetuation of the autoimmune disease in order to focus its resources on the helminths. By the same token, the immune system seems to assign a hierarchical rating to various food sensitivities and it tends to address them one at a time, beginning with the one that it perceives as the greatest threat. If that issue is resolved, then it proceeds to the next one in the hierarchy.

Apparently mothers transfer this effect to their unborn babies
More evidence of this effect was demonstrated in a study done in Uganda, published in 2011, in which researchers proved that unborn babies benefited from helminth populations in the digestive systems of their mothers.2 This project studied the effects of treating pregnant women in order to rid them of a helminth infestation that was discovered after they were pregnant. As an apparent consequence of eliminating the worms in the mothers, the babies developed eczema at a much higher rate than controls after they were born, thus indicating that the worms were protective of eczema development in their offspring, even though it was the mothers who had the worms, not the fetuses.

This hierarchy effect often reaches well beyond the digestive system
Many of us with microscopic colitis notice that before we are able to achieve remission of symptoms, our conventional (classic) histamine-based allergies seem to disappear, or at least diminish in intensity. And conversely, after we are able to attain remission from MC and our intestines have had time to heal, our histamine-based nuisance allergies once again return, and in many cases we may begin to react to additional allergens as well. This implies that these nuisance allergies may be secondary to food sensitivities.

Some people produce antibodies to certain foods, but have no clinical symptoms
In chapter nine we discussed how some individuals who have food sensitivities may eventually develop a tolerance for certain foods and become asymptomatic. As we learned there, some people with microscopic colitis produce antibodies to certain foods but remain clinically asymptomatic, a phenomenon that seems to parallel a similar situation that has been documented with celiac disease. Some celiacs may produce antibodies to gluten in their intestines, but they show no significant damage to the villi of their small intestine upon biopsy, and they suffer no clinical symptoms. In most cases of MC where antibodies to certain foods are produced but clinical symptoms are absent, if such individuals will exclude the food from their diet for a few weeks or longer, and then challenge their digestive system by reintroducing the food into their diet, they will virtually always show a very pronounced reaction to it, that serves as convincing evidence that they are indeed, sensitive to that food.

Again, I am unaware of any scientific research that might explain why this procedure works, but the experiences of many MC patients who use diet to control their symptoms suggest that it appears to be a reasonably reliable method for verifying a food sensitivity in many asymptomatic cases. And, of course, it’s well documented that many people who have celiac disease are asymptomatic, even though they have extensive small intestinal damage. This is probably a variation of the same diet-induced tolerance phenomenon.

Don’t add to the stress by worrying about a balanced diet when reacting
Many people who have MC worry that such a limited diet will affect their health because of missing nutrients. But the truth is, we’re usually not absorbing nutrients very well anyway when we have active microscopic colitis. The absorption of nutrients that takes place in the intestines can’t possibly proceed very efficiently when we have so much inflammation and such rapid transit.

To begin with, poor digestion causes many of the nutrients to not even be digested well enough to be available for absorption in the first place, and even if they were, when they pass through the intestines so rapidly, there simply isn’t sufficient time for a normal level of absorption to take place. When we also consider the fact that the inflammation at the surface of the intestinal lining further tends to limit the absorption of nutrients, it’s a wonder that we’re able to derive any benefits at all from our food.

Because of the dilemma that can result from malabsorption issues, together with the health risks associated with dehydration that so commonly occurs with MC, it behooves us to try to control our symptoms as quickly as possible and postpone worrying about balancing our diet until after we are in remission. Whether we eat a balanced diet or not is a moot point when our digestive system is so severely compromised that it’s unable to extract more than a small fraction of the nutrients in the food that we ingest. We’ll usually regain our health much sooner if we eat a bland, non-reactive diet designed to stop the inflammation as quickly as possible.

Virtually all herbal products should be avoided during this phase of our recovery while we’re trying to attain remission, and most vitamin and mineral supplements should either be avoided, or very carefully selected because many of those products contain ingredients that can cause us to react. The labeling laws for pharmaceutical products require an accurate disclosure of the active ingredients, but there are no requirements about listing the inert ingredients in pharmaceuticals (they are specifically exempt from the food labeling regulations). Most manufacturers do list inactive ingredients on the label, but since that’s strictly a voluntary listing and not an FDA requirement, we can’t always assume that all ingredients will always be correctly listed.

There are safe vitamin and mineral supplements available, but we have to be very careful when selecting them because many of the mainstream products contain ingredients that can cause us to react. The point is, after we are in remission, we will have the luxury of time and better health to allow us to do a much better job of figuring out how to eat a balanced diet, based on the foods that are allowed by our new dietary needs. Until we get our symptoms under control, the main priorities are to be sure that our electrolyte levels are adequate and that we drink enough water to prevent dehydration. If the diarrhea has been ongoing for a relatively long period of time, then vitamin B-12 may become depleted, in which case a vitamin B-12 supplement, preferably in sublingual form, to be dissolved under the tongue, may be beneficial.

For reasons that will become clear in chapter 15, where we will consider the areas of current research that may have an impact on future treatments for microscopic colitis, I personally feel inclined to avoid the synthetic form of retinol ( vitamin A) whenever possible, or at least I try to use vitamin supplements that contain minimal amounts of retinol. Instead, I prefer to use the beta-carotene form because the body can make all the vitamin A it needs from beta-carotene, and this will by-pass the risks associated with retinol for anyone with an IBD. Another problem with retinol is that it appears to block the benefits of vitamin D, and as we will see in chapter 14, most people who have microscopic colitis or any other IBD, typically need more vitamin D, and all the effectiveness they can get from it, rather than reduced vitamin D benefits.

Summary
In this chapter we explored evidence that the immune system tends to focus on the single problem that it perceives as the most significant challenge that it is facing, at any given time. We considered how this disease often leads to problems with the absorption of certain nutrients and why it is usually desirable to do whatever is necessary to control the symptoms of the disease before attempting to eat a more balanced diet.
Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by Erica P-G »

Thank you Tex,
It appears I need to return to the book (yep I have one) and re-read it all over again. I must have just skimmed it the first time, the book should be read a couple or more times to really form an understanding of what stage a person may be in.

This is a good excerpt that confirms just where I may be at this time. I am controlling the tonsil flare with 1 - 500mg Tylenol and I do not have the thigh joint ache today. These come and go aches are so bizarre! Feels like floating inflammation very hard to tell where it might hit next Grrr. This phase may take a while to get thru, if Gluten is slow to leave the body.

Erica
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

Erica
this is quite often why alot of people 'give up' when they make eating plan changes.
they think because they feel worse it is not working....

whether it be via a dietician or nutritionist or naturopath etc, this is commonly the stage people abandon a wellness protocol.
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Post by Erica P-G »

Thanks Gabes!

I'm glad I'm not giving up right now. I think I may even have experienced a beginner type of NORMAN!

Today I had a BM that was larger in size, floaters (which I hope that doesn't mean anything because it isn't like I'm eating nutrient dense food right now) there has been no WD for a good month now. The BM was pencil size a couple weeks ago, today they are like 3/4" by 2" surprised me completely!

I have to say that I feel I was compromised by lots of bacteria overgrowth. The antibiotic regime I have been on for the last month (due to ending up on two different antibiotics) I think has given my system some down time plus shrinking the food choices has allowed my gut to rid itself of some hard to deal with bacteria so I can start introducing a better kind and hopefully keep my body balanced for a while and this may be the saving grace for the gut to keep healing even more.

Thru the grape vine around my neighborhood I learned that some other lady went gluten free and it took her 2 years to really get to feeling back on her feet again. I am starting to feel depending on how a person's gut is that this is the middle area it takes to learn and get in a groove about diet, meds, expectations and just going with the flow of this process.

This post today is just another update on a path many are in the midst with.
Cheers
Erica
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

The increase of diameter of your poop is a good sign!! Woo hoo.

I don't look for the perfection of norman. My poop changes slightly day to day.
There will be variations here and there... Rather than using a black and white approach of good or bad, There is the variances that it is, what it is.

If it is a bit narrow I know there is some inflammation and I will go and take extra Vit D3.
If it is a bit bigger and a bit difficult to pass I go and take some extra Vit C and magnesium (keep in mind I had C issues for over 2 years)
Just a change of weather or eating at different times, or a stressful day at work will influence poop...
So long as it is out, minimal symptoms I am content with that....
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