I agree with Tex, Cristi. Your pattern sounds a lot like a classic gallbladder attack. Do you get fever or an elevated white count during the episode?
It's great that your doc was able to see you last night during an actual attack, although I am sorry that you had to go through that suffering again. What tests were done last night? Was an abdominal xray done? I am also wondering if you could be having some kind of intermittent obstruction due to a twisting (torsion) of the gut. I can't remember if you've had previous abdominal surgery (?adhesions), which could provide a setup for torsion.
Do you remember if you had eaten a particularly fatty meal before the attacks? Gall bladder attacks are notoriously precipitated by a fatty meal - like fried eggs, bacon, sausage, etc.
At least you were able to get adequate pain relief this time. Hope it's OK from now on.
Love,
Polly
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Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Exactly Tex. Which is probably why the calcium carbonate helps. I'm guessing anything that can bind bile will help. Though in the long run getting at the root of the problem is more important than covering up the symptom.
I'm guessing that very fatty meals will trigger an episode pretty regularly. The pain sounds like a spasm of the gallbladder or the ducts.
I'm guessing that very fatty meals will trigger an episode pretty regularly. The pain sounds like a spasm of the gallbladder or the ducts.
Hi Guys,
I had fasted and had nothing to drink that day since 9pm the night before so that was the first meal I had had that day at 5pm. I had salmon,asparagus and acorn squash. Now that I am thinking about it, I have thought that it occurs more often when I cut back on food, like in the old days when I would try to lose a couple of pounds. I was also wondering if dehydration might trigger it as well. As silly as this sounds eating cold things help with the symptoms some times.
Yes, there is much burping and pharting...if I wasn't in so much pain I would be mortified. My whole abdomen gets large.I have read that people with gallbladder problems are extremely flatulent.
My scan showed no stones or sludge although at other times there have been ultrasounds that showed both. If I had gallbladder disease wouldn't I have symptoms all the time? Maybe I am now with the calcium carbonate helping? But the attacks are so seldom ...??? And if they thought if was my gallbladder ..what can be done?? Removing it and having the bile dump directly into the digestive system sounds like more D. Is there a particular diet that make gallbladders happy?
This is confounding. Thanks for all your ideas.
Love,
Cristi
I had fasted and had nothing to drink that day since 9pm the night before so that was the first meal I had had that day at 5pm. I had salmon,asparagus and acorn squash. Now that I am thinking about it, I have thought that it occurs more often when I cut back on food, like in the old days when I would try to lose a couple of pounds. I was also wondering if dehydration might trigger it as well. As silly as this sounds eating cold things help with the symptoms some times.
Yes, there is much burping and pharting...if I wasn't in so much pain I would be mortified. My whole abdomen gets large.I have read that people with gallbladder problems are extremely flatulent.
My scan showed no stones or sludge although at other times there have been ultrasounds that showed both. If I had gallbladder disease wouldn't I have symptoms all the time? Maybe I am now with the calcium carbonate helping? But the attacks are so seldom ...??? And if they thought if was my gallbladder ..what can be done?? Removing it and having the bile dump directly into the digestive system sounds like more D. Is there a particular diet that make gallbladders happy?
This is confounding. Thanks for all your ideas.
Love,
Cristi
Hi Polly,
They took blood and did an xray to rule out a perforation happening during the endoscopy. They said the only thing from the blood was a slightly elevated pancreatic enzyme. (I had only one enzyme pill before the 5pm meal. Everything always comes back normal.
Maybe it's not diseased but has episodes sometimes???I did have abdominal surgery and it always sounds to the MD (and feels to me as well) that there is some partial obstruction...but nothing is ever found.
I have been eating a lot of fat since becoming sick after the surgery mainly as a way to stop losing weight. The good stuff...olive oil, cashew butter,salmon and doing well...I thought. Doing so well that I started decreasing the fat this week. Maybe it's the change that triggers it?? I am going to have to research diet and gallbladder further.
I never get fevers with these attacks. I also had that gallbladder test where they inject something in you and it makes the gallbladder contract and of course that came back normal as well. I look normal on all tests.
Love,
Cristi
They took blood and did an xray to rule out a perforation happening during the endoscopy. They said the only thing from the blood was a slightly elevated pancreatic enzyme. (I had only one enzyme pill before the 5pm meal. Everything always comes back normal.
Maybe it's not diseased but has episodes sometimes???I did have abdominal surgery and it always sounds to the MD (and feels to me as well) that there is some partial obstruction...but nothing is ever found.
I have been eating a lot of fat since becoming sick after the surgery mainly as a way to stop losing weight. The good stuff...olive oil, cashew butter,salmon and doing well...I thought. Doing so well that I started decreasing the fat this week. Maybe it's the change that triggers it?? I am going to have to research diet and gallbladder further.
I never get fevers with these attacks. I also had that gallbladder test where they inject something in you and it makes the gallbladder contract and of course that came back normal as well. I look normal on all tests.
Love,
Cristi
Hi Cristi,
I'm sorry to read that you're having these epidodes..........I can relate to the pain.
I agree with Tex - Gallbladder Disease!!!!!!!!!!! I too showed no disease with the "normal" tests they put you through to test for gallbladder disease. After a bout of pain like you described, my doc put me through a test (sorry, don't remember what it is called) where they inject dye and have you drink a barrium mixture and xray you periodically to see how long it takes the gallbladder to empty. I remember the tech kept calling the doctor saying.... "she's not emptying.............." more than once. Needless to say, my gallbladder was not functioning like it was designed to and showed no sign of disease when removed. It just quit functioning!
I wish you luck - quickly - with the pain and diagnosis.
Love,
Mars
I'm sorry to read that you're having these epidodes..........I can relate to the pain.
I agree with Tex - Gallbladder Disease!!!!!!!!!!! I too showed no disease with the "normal" tests they put you through to test for gallbladder disease. After a bout of pain like you described, my doc put me through a test (sorry, don't remember what it is called) where they inject dye and have you drink a barrium mixture and xray you periodically to see how long it takes the gallbladder to empty. I remember the tech kept calling the doctor saying.... "she's not emptying.............." more than once. Needless to say, my gallbladder was not functioning like it was designed to and showed no sign of disease when removed. It just quit functioning!
I wish you luck - quickly - with the pain and diagnosis.
Love,
Mars
"Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful." -- Buddha
Aha!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
These and various other studies I found, most mentioned in the first study point to calcium binding bile salts. What is rather interesting is that, in the second study I posted here, casein can block this binding from happening, which they found could lead to hypercholesterolaemia. Well guess where bile acid comes from cholesterol.
What's interesting is that when they do studies showing what things help folks from not getting colon cancer that they include various things that bind or help get rid of bile acids, including calcium, fiber and gut flora to name a few. Though I would think that this could have a detrimental effect if taken to the extreem as there are important reasons for your body to make cholesterol, one of which being the sterols (the bodies steroids) being a big one.
Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
These and various other studies I found, most mentioned in the first study point to calcium binding bile salts. What is rather interesting is that, in the second study I posted here, casein can block this binding from happening, which they found could lead to hypercholesterolaemia. Well guess where bile acid comes from cholesterol.
What's interesting is that when they do studies showing what things help folks from not getting colon cancer that they include various things that bind or help get rid of bile acids, including calcium, fiber and gut flora to name a few. Though I would think that this could have a detrimental effect if taken to the extreem as there are important reasons for your body to make cholesterol, one of which being the sterols (the bodies steroids) being a big one.
Mike
Hi Mike,
This is interesting and I am totally not understanding all this right now....but I just talked to my naturopath and she talked about not being able to excrete bile acids and putting me on taurine ?? to help and all this explaining why my cholesterol went up over 200 on my last blood work when it has been low before....so she is on the same thought track as you. I meet with her in person tomorrow and she is giving me a bunch of literature to help me understand.
I can't tell you all how liberating this is to have people who question everything and don't just roll over and give up when your doctor says there is nothing wrong. I just never had the spine before to dare question them and I am irritating more than a few now by having the courage to keep insisting that I need help not antidepressants. I know I sound corny...but I usually try to suck it up, cover it up and blend in and not make those around me feel uncomfortable. Thanks for the spine.
Hi Mars,
I am sorry you had to go through that..the pain is awful. But it is reassuring that someone who actually had it says that it is gallbladder disease as well. I'll find out what test that was and figure out how to get it. My Mom has been saying for years that it's my gallbladder but never had any doctor say those were the symptoms.
The ER said that sometimes gallbladders have spasms and could explain why I get symptoms only periodically. When you were having symptoms were you also having D? How did things change after the surgery?
Love,
Cristi
This is interesting and I am totally not understanding all this right now....but I just talked to my naturopath and she talked about not being able to excrete bile acids and putting me on taurine ?? to help and all this explaining why my cholesterol went up over 200 on my last blood work when it has been low before....so she is on the same thought track as you. I meet with her in person tomorrow and she is giving me a bunch of literature to help me understand.
I can't tell you all how liberating this is to have people who question everything and don't just roll over and give up when your doctor says there is nothing wrong. I just never had the spine before to dare question them and I am irritating more than a few now by having the courage to keep insisting that I need help not antidepressants. I know I sound corny...but I usually try to suck it up, cover it up and blend in and not make those around me feel uncomfortable. Thanks for the spine.
Hi Mars,
I am sorry you had to go through that..the pain is awful. But it is reassuring that someone who actually had it says that it is gallbladder disease as well. I'll find out what test that was and figure out how to get it. My Mom has been saying for years that it's my gallbladder but never had any doctor say those were the symptoms.
The ER said that sometimes gallbladders have spasms and could explain why I get symptoms only periodically. When you were having symptoms were you also having D? How did things change after the surgery?
Love,
Cristi
Cristi,
The doctors may be ruling out gallbladder disease simply because of the lack of evidence of gallstones. Consider this quote:
http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/w ... 0010_1.htm
Love,
Tex
P S The symptoms are due to a lack of bile, rather than an excess of bile in the small intestine.
The doctors may be ruling out gallbladder disease simply because of the lack of evidence of gallstones. Consider this quote:
This is from:Diagnosing Chronic Acalculous Gallbladder Disease. Chronic acalculous gallbladder disease is usually diagnosed when a patient complains of gallbladder symptoms but there is no evidence of stones using standard imaging techniques. (More than half of patients initially diagnosed with this disease, however, are eventually shown to have small stones or gallbladder sludge.) The patient is given the hormone cholecystokinin octapeptide (CCK), which induces gallbladder contraction, followed by a radioisotope scan that determines if the gallbladder is emptying correctly. If the gallbladder demonstrates difficulty releasing bile, doctors usually consider the diagnosis confirmed.
http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/w ... 0010_1.htm
Love,
Tex
P S The symptoms are due to a lack of bile, rather than an excess of bile in the small intestine.
Hi Friends,
Another bad night ...had to take more morphine. I have a call into the GI who performed the endoscopic ultrasound....hopefully get some help. The gallbladder was so swollen last night it popped in between two ribs as I breathed.
Tex, wouldn't my fecal fat have not come back normal if my gallbladder was not producing enough bile to digest the fats?? Or with gallbladder problems does it operate well until you get an attack and only then not produce enough???
I'll let you know how it goes today. I have all my pain after dinner and through the night. this am everything is mostly okay...just a little swollen. So I am worried about convincing these guys that anything is going on.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Love,
Cristi
Love
Another bad night ...had to take more morphine. I have a call into the GI who performed the endoscopic ultrasound....hopefully get some help. The gallbladder was so swollen last night it popped in between two ribs as I breathed.
Tex, wouldn't my fecal fat have not come back normal if my gallbladder was not producing enough bile to digest the fats?? Or with gallbladder problems does it operate well until you get an attack and only then not produce enough???
I'll let you know how it goes today. I have all my pain after dinner and through the night. this am everything is mostly okay...just a little swollen. So I am worried about convincing these guys that anything is going on.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Love,
Cristi
Love
Well, hell! Sure cover up the symptoms doc! I hate the damn doctors who know the body is telling them something but instead of figuring out the problem they tell the body to shut up by covering up the symptoms. Can he explain why your gallbladder is spasming in the first place? This was happening even before taking the morphine. Just because the doc things "IBS" doesn't mean he should just give up. I wonder if IBS should actually stand for Idiotic Bull Sh... um Ship? ;)
For those curious here's what Levsin is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levsin
Appears to be in the same family as morphine, an alkaloid. Derived from a plant in the nightshade family.
Also, who is the GI doc so I know who not to go to?
Mike
For those curious here's what Levsin is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levsin
Appears to be in the same family as morphine, an alkaloid. Derived from a plant in the nightshade family.
Also, who is the GI doc so I know who not to go to?
Mike
Crisi,
I have had Levsin and Levbid for my spasms, which is what they are prescribed for. In my case, they don't help much - I hope you have better luck than I did. Everyone is different and medication works on everyone different too.
Sometimes the docs prescribe medication hoping that the "side effects" of the meds are what helps you, not what the meds are usually prescribed for. Been there, done that one too! I know, it's totally frustrating!
Hang in there. Listening to your body will help you figure out what helps and what doesn't and continuing to complain to your doctor until they find a plan that works!
Love,
Mars
I have had Levsin and Levbid for my spasms, which is what they are prescribed for. In my case, they don't help much - I hope you have better luck than I did. Everyone is different and medication works on everyone different too.
Sometimes the docs prescribe medication hoping that the "side effects" of the meds are what helps you, not what the meds are usually prescribed for. Been there, done that one too! I know, it's totally frustrating!
Hang in there. Listening to your body will help you figure out what helps and what doesn't and continuing to complain to your doctor until they find a plan that works!
Love,
Mars
"Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful." -- Buddha
I'm not Tex, I only play him on TV... LOL But if you're still taking digestive enzymes your fecal fat score would improve, also having this pain doesn't always mean that your gallbladder isn't producing enough bile, perhaps too much, or it's blocked and once enough pressure builds it releases enough, or who knows what else.cludwig wrote:Tex, wouldn't my fecal fat have not come back normal if my gallbladder was not producing enough bile to digest the fats?? Or with gallbladder problems does it operate well until you get an attack and only then not produce enough???
I guess if I were to think about this for a second as to what would cause the gallbladder to spasm would be the same reasons that other body parts spasm. Nerological (chemicals or nerves out of balance), biological (gallbladder is trying to rid itself of something including stones or "bad" bile, gallbladder is missing some chemical/mineral/vitamin/energy).
I'm curious it seems to happen around the same time every day correct? Do you eat the same amount of fats at breakfast and lunch? What all are you taking supplement wise and medicine wise and when do you take them?
Thanks,
Mike
Oh and don't get me wrong, in the short term I'd take the drugs that would help, but in the long term figure out what the cause is. Not saying to drop drugs all together, I'd just rather seem them used as a temporary help rather than a long term cover up.
Oh and I forgot to mention where I was going with the timing of things. Perhaps it could be a diurnal thing, thus it would be related to melatonin, cortisol or any other body chemistry that changes throughout the day if it seems to happen every night at a certain time. Though since you're not getting enough sleep due to pain that really screws up the body clock and the chemicals that fluctuate throughout the day.
It could also be due to when and what food or supplement you are taking if you take the same things every time at a certain time.
Mike
Oh and I forgot to mention where I was going with the timing of things. Perhaps it could be a diurnal thing, thus it would be related to melatonin, cortisol or any other body chemistry that changes throughout the day if it seems to happen every night at a certain time. Though since you're not getting enough sleep due to pain that really screws up the body clock and the chemicals that fluctuate throughout the day.
It could also be due to when and what food or supplement you are taking if you take the same things every time at a certain time.
Mike
Hi All,
It always starts after dinner and builds until it is unbearable around 2am and stays that way till 6 or 7 am then usually completely disappears. This time it is less in the am but is not totally disappearing.
I was just reading the mayo clinic site about gallbladders and it says that skipping breakfast for some reason screws up the contractions of the gallbladder causing an attack. Perhaps it was the fasting before my procedure that pissed it off. If the skipping the breakfast thing is a big part of this then it explains why it started as a teenager because that's when I started not eating breakfast. It was a big circle kind of thing because I would be in so much pain the whole night that in the am I would be reluctant to eat anything because it was so blissful not to be in any pain. In the am on an empty stomach was the only time my gut ever felt 100% okay. I started thinking of eating as the enemy.
Anyway, I don't have any stones or sludge right now although I have had in the past. I have no fever or elevated white blood count and never have with any of these attacks before. No one is willing to say that my gallbladder is even an issue. I also have had that gallbladder test where they inject you to see if the gallbladder contracts and it did as normal. So I am stuck with an IBS label that I think is either incorrect or only half the picture.
Perhaps the gallbladder has its little fit and causes an IBS reaction. I don't think I am going to get anywhere with my GI. Their solution would be to remove ...I don't know if there is a treatment to help it function better. I see why they would not want to do surgery without any proof from a lab...so I feel helpless with this.
The pain is so bad I have to try the drugs...but I agree I would like to figure out what is really happening.
I am an oddball with food...I eat the same thing everyday. So, I am not reacting to any food ...the only thing that changed this week was I greatly reduced my estrogen and eliminated my progesterone due to my scary mammogram. At this moment I am thinking the fasting triggered it.
Love,
Cristi
It always starts after dinner and builds until it is unbearable around 2am and stays that way till 6 or 7 am then usually completely disappears. This time it is less in the am but is not totally disappearing.
I was just reading the mayo clinic site about gallbladders and it says that skipping breakfast for some reason screws up the contractions of the gallbladder causing an attack. Perhaps it was the fasting before my procedure that pissed it off. If the skipping the breakfast thing is a big part of this then it explains why it started as a teenager because that's when I started not eating breakfast. It was a big circle kind of thing because I would be in so much pain the whole night that in the am I would be reluctant to eat anything because it was so blissful not to be in any pain. In the am on an empty stomach was the only time my gut ever felt 100% okay. I started thinking of eating as the enemy.
Anyway, I don't have any stones or sludge right now although I have had in the past. I have no fever or elevated white blood count and never have with any of these attacks before. No one is willing to say that my gallbladder is even an issue. I also have had that gallbladder test where they inject you to see if the gallbladder contracts and it did as normal. So I am stuck with an IBS label that I think is either incorrect or only half the picture.
Perhaps the gallbladder has its little fit and causes an IBS reaction. I don't think I am going to get anywhere with my GI. Their solution would be to remove ...I don't know if there is a treatment to help it function better. I see why they would not want to do surgery without any proof from a lab...so I feel helpless with this.
The pain is so bad I have to try the drugs...but I agree I would like to figure out what is really happening.
I am an oddball with food...I eat the same thing everyday. So, I am not reacting to any food ...the only thing that changed this week was I greatly reduced my estrogen and eliminated my progesterone due to my scary mammogram. At this moment I am thinking the fasting triggered it.
Love,
Cristi