Is It Just Me? What's So Bad About Measles?

[JFR]

How painful for your family, Joe, to lose a baby unnecessarily. I'm so sorry.

The personal decision to not immunize oneself or ones children endangers the vulnerable and is, ultimately, a very selfish act. Most of us live in communities and owe it to our neighbors to act responsibly for the greater good.


Sheila W

I agree Sheila.

I am so sorry for you and your family Joe.

Jean

[tex]

WHOA!!!!! It's not ME insisting that vaccines should be mandatory. LOL! In fact, they have been mandatory for decades. You might be surprised to know that there is absolutely no federal vaccine mandate; however all 50 states require proof of the MMR vaccine prior to entrance to public school. If you do not have the vaccine or a valid exemption approved by the state, you cannot go to public school - anywhere in this country.

Yes I know. I once attended public school. But I was under the impression that you had specifically mentioned mandatory vaccinations and you were arguing in favor of it. If you are opposed to it, then I apologize for making that mistake.

All docs and health care facilities are aware of the very rare possibility of anaphylaxis (estimated to be less than one in 1,000,000 doses) and are prepared to treat it immediately if it should occur. The docs/clinics I know usually have the patient remain in the waiting room for a short time (30 min. or so) after immunization in case they should need treatment for anaphylaxis (especially if it is the first vaccine in a series). All of this is just good medicine. Docs take immunizations very seriously, I can assure you of that.

Yes, I'm also well aware of that, but frankly I am not reassured. Why? Because far too many physicians are apparently unable to correctly identify anaphylaxis symptoms until it is too late to save the patient, and/or they are unfamiliar with the proper procedure for treating anaphylaxis. You must have missed the January 25 newsletter from Medscape. If so, you should find some of the articles listed in that newsletter enlightening. For example this one includes the comment:

And doctors don't get it right, either. In my own experience, epinephrine is often omitted from the emergency care of the anaphylactic patient. R.S.H. Pumphrey reported,[2] in a study, that epinephrine was administered in just 62% of the fatal anaphylactic reactions that he reviewed, with only a small minority (14%) receiving the drug before cardiac arrest.

My partner in practice once had a patient in the emergency department for hours getting fluids for hypotension (blood pressure, 80/50 mm Hg), along with antihistamines and corticosteroids as anaphylaxis management. The patient was concerned and called my partner in the middle of the night. The treating emergency physician refused to give epinephrine and challenged my partner to come in if he wanted to manage the case—which he in fact did, and the patient promptly responded to a single intramuscular dose of 0.3 mg (1:1000) epinephrine.

The red emphasis is mine, of course.

Injectable Epinephrine: An Epidemic of Misuse

And check this one:

"Unfortunately, there is a rich and extensive literature showing that medical providers, including physicians, regardless of stage of training, under-recognize and undertreat anaphylaxis," he said here at the American College of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology 2014.

"Residents in our own health system lacked familiarity and experience with anaphylaxis diagnosis and management, including how to use epinephrine autoinjectors," Dr Jongco told Medscape Medical News.

Epinephrine Autoinjector Training May Help Clinicians

This one has nothing to do with in-house triggered reactions (well maybe it does, in a way), but I find it very interesting anyway.

Admissions for iatrogenic anaphylaxis did not increase for children up to age 14 years but increased in older age groups. The mean age for fatalities was 58 years (95% CI, 56 - 61 years).

Again, the red emphasis is mine.

Anaphylaxis Hospitalizations on the Rise

That's why I'm not reassured by your remarks.

Protecting the masses is what protects the individual, IMHO.

True, and protecting the masses costs many individuals their lives (not just in medicine, but in all endeavors designed to protect the masses).

Love,
Tex

[tex]

Joe,

I'm so very sorry that your family suffered that tragic loss, but virtually all of us can relate at least 1 such tragic loss of life involving a close relative, due to various causes. Stuff happens. Sometimes we're just unlucky, and the cards are stacked against us. I realize that numbers mean nothing to you, but the study of the 2008–2011 measles epidemic in France shows that even though 3,326 measles cases were reported for patients under the age of 1 year, not a single fatality was reported in that age group.

Tex

[tex]

The personal decision to not immunize oneself or ones children endangers the vulnerable and is, ultimately, a very selfish act. Most of us live in communities and owe it to our neighbors to act responsibly for the greater good.

The personal decision to not take a vaccine is no more selfish than those who expect everyone else in the world to be vaccinated for their benefit. That's a 2-way street. Parents of vulnerable children should take special measures to protect their child, rather than to expect everyone else to take special measures to protect that child. That may seem cruel, but if they don't do that, they are taking a huge chance by pretending that it's a perfect world, and the world will take care of them. There are always going to be unvaccinated kids around, regardless of regulations One would think that parents who have unvaccinated kids should have sense enough to keep them away from vulnerable kids, and parents of vulnerable kids should be alert to enforce that.

And if vaccinations are mandatory in all 50 states, why are all these unvaccinated kids running around infecting vulnerable kids, anyway? Presumably they are unvaccinated because they qualify for one of the exceptions previously mentioned. And that's not likely to change. That's exactly why parents of vulnerable kids should always take the necessary precautions to protect their child.

Tex

[Polly]

Oh Joe,

I echo what Sheila and Jean have said. How incredibly sad to lose Karina to a preventable disease, especially as an infant who never had a fighting chance at life. And how awful to watch her suffer so - I am guessing that she had measles encephalitis, which is devastating. So sad. It sounds as if Karina never came into contact with the unvaccinated neighbor child. From what you said, Karina's siblings played with the unvaccinated child and then unknowingly brought the virus home to her. This is so typical of measles - it is thought to be the MOST contagious disease in the world. It is almost impossible to escape from it.

I find it interesting that 3 members who have posted on this thread have personal knowledge of a child who died from measles.

Thanks for sharing your story. Please know that you have given me renewed determination to do all I can to support/improve mandatory immunization laws and "carry the torch".

Love,

Polly

[Joefnh]

Yes Tex "Stuff Happens" when it involves a painful loss of life and that it was totally preventable thats the rub isnt it. I guess I really am not equating this loss with disease history in France, I watched her take her last breath, that was more than enough for me.

Before we bury real events into statistics further I am simply going to bow out of this conversation, this is not the right place for a discussion of this sort, for me this is far more than a statistic that can be explained away.

Polly you are correct it was Measles Encephalitis and the related complications.

[tex]

this is not the right place for a discussion of this sort

Exactly! I posted what I thought was a simple, innocent enough post, and Polly immediately decided to seize the opportunity to promote her political agenda, and of course she correctly assumed that she could win support by making it personal, and accusing me of being anti-everything that's good and holy. So naturally that persuaded you and others to share a few tragic stories to help make it even more personal.

I could share plenty of cruel, tear-jerking medical tragedies from my own family and friends that unfortunately are not related to measles, and I'm pretty sure that would apply to virtually every other member here, but as you say, this is not the place for that. Who among us needs more stress?

Tex

[Joefnh]

Tex no one pursuaded me to post here in this thread. I shared this story from the heart and it was hard to do so, only to help show what one possible outcome of measles might be.

In the end we have our feelings, beliefs and intuitions. Those are our rights and yes we need to defend those.

While we are busy discussing our rights though, lets remember the children....they are what we are talking about .... right??

I hope this is about the children not about "us" Tex...I am afraid though this thread may have lost some of that focus.

[Polly]

Tex!

You initiated this thread with your opinion about measles and invited responses. And whenever I gave a response, you immediately invited more responses from me. I had absolutely nothing to do with the responses that anyone else gave or whether they "personalized" them or not.

At no time did I consider this to be a battle between the two of us, a "win/lose" situation where we needed to gain support from others for our viewpoint. I did not see it as a personal attack - I saw it as a learning opportunity with regard to an important issue in children's health. Surely you expected that, as a pediatrician, I would respond to this thread. Just as I figured that you would play devil's advocate. (Isn't this part and parcel of our longstanding history together?)

I am completely baffled by your comment that I accused you of "being anti-everything that's good and holy". Please show me where I said anything accusatory. If you got that impression, I am sorry. It is true that, on this issue, you are not on the side of mainstream thinking, but I doubt that this has ever bothered you before. I think you often buck the mainstream - and correct me if I am wrong - enjoy doing so. (giggle).

Of course, for all of us, our core values and political beliefs color our opinions. You as well as me. Isn't that what makes discussions such as this interesting?

Love,

Polly

[tex]

I am completely baffled by your comment that I accused you of "being anti-everything that's good and holy". Please show me where I said anything accusatory.

Consider this quote from one of your posts:

I read an editorial recently that claimed that antivaccinationists tend toward complete mistrust of government and manufacturers and conspiratorial thinking. I know that you are not antivaccinationist, but I do believe that your value system may cause you to become quite frustrated with mainstream public health policy. Thanks so much for clarifying how very strongly you feel about individual freedom.....it is obvious that this trumps everything for you.

So you don't consider implied accusations such as your remarks in that quote to be a form of profiling designed to discredit me? Did I misread this and you were actually complimenting me instead. Why bring up the point that antivaccionationists tend to totally mistrust the government. If you know that I am not an antivaccinationist, then all that BS would be irrelevant. But you brought it up anyway, and naturally you had to link it to frustration with mainstream public health policy (to establish a pattern of implied antisocial behavior, donchaknow).

And the comment, ".....it is obvious that this trumps everything for you." Really? Do you really think that I am so simple-minded that any single item could trump everything for me? Incredible! Seriously, I thought you knew me better than that.

To say that you presented a warped assessment of my attitude/ideals/persona/etc. is putting it mildly. But Hey! I don't hold it against you because I can understand how passionate you are about this issue, and it's easy to get carried away when defending something that's so dear to one's heart.

What I don't understand is why I have suddenly become the bad guy simply because I expressed my thoughts. I thought that this was a free country and the right to express one's opinion is one of the personal freedoms that I do indeed support (with my single-item mindset, donchaknow ). And it bothers me that instead of solid (and accurate) facts, you bombard me with distorted facts and emotional claims about "the greater good", and then wonder why I'm still a doubter. As you're well aware, we expect to see that type of pattern in snake oil ads, but not in discussions about science.

And as far as this remark goes:

It is true that, on this issue, you are not on the side of mainstream thinking, but I doubt that this has ever bothered you before. I think you often buck the mainstream - and correct me if I am wrong - enjoy doing so. (giggle).

I'm not so sure that I'm not on the side of mainstream thinking on this particular issue (I suspect that the other side just "thinks" a lot louder, and has better political connections than the rest of us. ), but other than that . . . yes, maybe you do know me, after all. And if you're so in agreement with mainstream thinking, why didn't you just follow your GI doc's advice when you were diagnosed with MC? Why did you search for a non-mainstream solution? And why are you here? Obviously you're quite a radical yourself. We're not that different (except for the political stuff, and politics sucks anyway, so why get excited about it?). This board couldn't exist if all of us were entirely satisfied with the methods of mainstream medicine (at least the gasteoenterological specialty part of it). We're all radicals, to at least some degree. Aren't we?

So that powerful bond is surely one of the many reasons why we have remained (and still are, I hope) good friends after all these years.

Love,
Tex

[Leah]

I agree with Polly. Sometimes government has to step in for the betterment of society as a whole. I don't think people should have the right to spread diseases that are preventable…especially to those who are at risk.
Leah

[Lesley]

My cousin has a teenage girl who got measles encephalitis but didn't die. Joe, much as I sympathize with you over the loss of your niece, Sarah's situation and that of her family is far worse. She is now 17, and has absolutely no cognitive or physical abilities whatsoever, except reacting with eye movements that show she recognizes her mother. Luckily my cousin has the financial ability to support her. He is an OBGYN. You should hear him on the subject of vaccinations for measles.
Like Polly I think that the fact that there are 3 people on this discussion with relatives who suffered as the result of non vaccination for measles is either a very weird coincidence or food for thought, no?
I had measles and was horribly ill for a couple of weeks. I remember it well. I had chicken pox, another so called childhood disease for which there is a vaccination, at 17, and was terribly ill. My mother got it at 45, and almost died. "Childhood illnesses" when escaped in childhood and then contracted as an adult can be pretty serious. So eliminating the disease is very important IMO.

As for a discussion regarding personal freedoms and government, as a woman I can say that the desire of some members of government to get involved in the regulation of my female parts and their possible issue despite the law of the land ...well, I don't think I need say more about what I think of that!

[JLH]

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation ... table.html

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation ... report.pdf

One law firm's cases. http://www.mctlawyers.com/vaccine-injury/cases

[JLH]

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Vaccines and GMOs.

[Stanz]

Known as the energizer bunny in my biz as a caterer for the last 28 years, even though I am now 66. Had a fluvirin shot 1/9 and have been disabled ever since. Being tested for Guillaine Barre Syndrome next week. If you have a history of various "undiagnosable autoimmune disorders", as I did, long before my dx w/ MC, you should never have ANY vaccination unless you thoroughly research it first, which I stupidly didn't and my doctor should have known that, but the reality is that "you're just 20 minutes of their day and they don't give a shi*. I could copy over all my "My Chart" messages pleading for help, but what's the point?

Every clinic should have someone who looks at someone's medical record as a WHOLE thing. I've had the Enterolab tests, had the 23andme tests, have given them copies of my results and still just 3 weeks ago they prescribed meds for me that are completely contraindicated by my genetics. My clinic is a teaching University, OHSU, and in talking with the lawyer my ND recommended, what I learned is that this Institution is pretty much treated like a Gov't here and has the largest amt. of lawsuits of any entity in Oregon, but none of this is public. NOBODY there has ever looked at my records, despite my pleas, nobody gives a damn. Have an appt. with a new GI, can't see her til 7/30, hope I'm still alive by then, see little reason to even give a shi* anymore. Seeing my PCP on 6/9 for prelim tests for GBS. Have a whole list of tests I want them to do, which I requested 2 months ago, but all they did was a CBC and then told me it was normal and then told me it was abnormal because I have enlarged RBC's.

Been too sick to post here or be a part of any forum. My legs and arms are going numb, I have no balance, no energy, cannot work, have constant migraines, blurred visopn and night blindness, which doesn't mesh well w/the filming hours I worked in before my flu shot. Literally have to sit on the side of my bathtub to shave my legs, because I can't balance on one leg. Have migraines 24/7. Working through the VAERS system is an absolute comedy. Just kill me now.