Another Clue That IBDs May Be Caused By A Mycobacterium

[tex]

Probably about 50 to 100 years, if we're lucky.

I'm not holding my breath.

Tex

[ant]

I brought up the subject of MAP with my new GP doc. She is doing a blood test for "mycoplasma PATH135 (all types)".

Does that sound correct?

All best, Love, Ant

[Polly]

Hi Ant,

Classically, mycoplasma have no cell walls while mycobacteria do. But wait a minute, didn't we discuss this earlier and learn that mycobacteria could at times shed their cell wall? Hmmmmmm.

Love,

Polly

[ant]

Dear Polly

So these test could be useful, but it seems they will not test for Mycobacterium, and specifically Mycobacterium avium subsp. Can the Myscobacterium only be found by biopsy or can they show up in a blood test do you think?

How is your knee and flare these days? I hope both recovered.

Love, Ant

[tex]

Ant,

I believe they can be found by culture, but if I recall correctly, it can take months for them to propagate to the point where they are readily delectable in the culture medium - I could be wrong about that, though, it's been a long time since I read about that, and I went through the information pretty fast. There may be better ways to "culture" them, these days.

Tex

[Rosie]

It seems to me that there are tools available for test for the presence of MAP, if a scientist wanted to look. In the old days, you would have to get a biopsy and stain for the presence of particular bacteria, a difficult task if the bacteria were not very plentiful.....the proverbial needle in a haystack. However, now with the very sensitive DNA testing, the chances of actually finding something are much higher. However, these DNA tests can be tricky to do, in part because they are almost too sensitive. Let's hope that someone gets the idea to take a look.

Ant, most of the blood tests look for antibodies for various suspects, and we all know how insensitive these tests can be.

Rosie

[Polly]

Good morning, good buddies!

I already posted this info on the thead about "Antibiotics for Longterm Crohn's Treatment" (Discussions on Treatment Options using Diet/Meds forum) but thought I should add it to this thread, too, since it directly involves MAP (mycobacteria avium paratuberculosis).

I did a little research to see if there were any natural compounds known to kill MAP.

And I found an article titled "Antibacterial Activities of Naturally-Occuring Compounds against MAP".

Check out www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2565950/

It appears that cinnamon in 2 different forms (trans-cinnaldehyde and cinnamon oil) was the most effective against mycobacteria avium paratuberculosis (MAP). I think cinnamon oil is readily available, as of course, is the powdered cinnamon spice. Of course, the compounds in this study were tested "in vitro" (in a test tube outside the body) and that does not necessarily mean that they would be effective "in vivo" (inside the body) but it is certainly possible.

So what do you think? I would not want to officially recommend that anyone try this as an MC treatment, and of course, we have no idea about what amount (dose) might be effective in the body, but I think I might want to look for opportunities to add more cinnamon to my diet.

Love,

Polly

P.S. Check out that initial thread for more info about cinnamon in additional posts.
I think I will try eating some every day.

[tex]

Polly,

It just occurred to me that when I was growing up, there was a significant amount of cinnamon in my diet, on a regular basis. My mother, and my grandmothers, (and most other folks, for that matter, back in those days), used cinnamon regularly, in their cooking, in all sorts of dishes, starting with breakfast, and going right through dinner, (lunch), supper, and most of the snacks in between, (homemade sweet rolls, coffee cake, etc.). In fact, I'll bet that I rarely ate a meal, that didn't include cinnamon. As I got older, though, and got away from that home cooking, cinnamon slowly faded from my diet. During the past couple of decades, there has been practically none of it in my diet. I can't recall the last time I ate any cinnamon, as a matter of fact.

I truly wonder about the significance of this.

Love,
Tex

[Polly]

That's most interesting, Tex. I recall often having toast with butter and cinnamon, as well as regular cinnamon rolls, cinnamon-raisin bread, etc. I am with you in truly wondering about the significance of all this.

Love,

Polly

[Gabes-Apg]

Tex - further to that point - as we have discussed with the home made soups (from bones) and other foods that we ate regularly in our childhood and we dont have now. i think quite alot of the foods we ate in our childhood are what our grandparents ate .... part of what i am researching the genetic link to our diet and what we should be eating..

[Bifcus16]

I was having a generous sprinkling of cinnamon in my oats every day at the time I my MC became active. So however much you need, it is more than the 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon I was having.

Lyn

[Stanz]

These studies answered a lot of questions on how this all works.

Gaps In Intestinal Barrier Could Cause Crohn's Disease
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 085509.htm

How Bacteria In Cows' Milk May Cause Crohn's Disease
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 104002.htm

Professor Jon Rhodes, from the University’s School of Clinical Sciences, explains: “Mycobacterium paratuberculosis has been found within Crohn’s disease tissue but there has been much controversy concerning its role in the disease.  We have now shown that these Mycobacteria release a complex molecule containing a sugar, called mannose.  This molecule prevents a type of white blood cells, called macrophages, from killing internalised E.Coli.” 
Scientists have previously shown that people with Crohn’s disease have increased numbers of a ‘sticky’ type of E.coli and weakened ability to fight off intestinal bacteria.  The suppressive effect of the Mycobacterial molecule on this type of white blood cell suggests it is a likely mechanism for weakening the body’s defence against the bacteria.
Professor Rhodes added: "We also found that this bacterium is a likely trigger for a circulating antibody protein (ASCA) that is found in about two thirds of patients with Crohn's disease, suggesting that these people may have been infected by the Mycobacterium."

Viruses Can Turn Harmless E. Coli Dangerous
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 195827.htm

[harvest_table]

The following article might be of interest- Host-Bacteria interaction in inflammatory bowel disease.

Introduction/background: Inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) results from
complex interactions between: host genome, immune system, mucosa, bacteria,
and environment.
Sources of data: Review of PubMed database using search terms ‘bacteria and
inflammatory bowel disease’ and ‘genetics and inflammatory bowel disease’.
PubMed ‘related reference’ feature and references from retrieved articles were
examined.
Areas of agreement: IBD results from interaction between the microbiota of the
gut and the immune system. Key gene defects associated with IBD are involved
in bacterial recognition and processing. The environment at least modifies and
may determine pathogenesis.
Areas of controversy: It has been disputed whether the primary defect in IBD is
immunological or bacterial, and which bacteria are key.
Growing points/areas for research: ‘M cells’, the specialized epithelial cells that
overlie Peyer’s patches, are a major interface between gut bacteria and the
immune system. Improved understanding is needed of the bacteria involved in
IBD pathogenesis, their genotypes and phenotypes, their portal of entry and
their mechanism for escaping attack from the immune system. Bacterial ligands
involved in bacteria–epithelial adhesion are emerging, and molecular
techniques are rapidly increasing our knowledge of the human intestinal
microbiota.

http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/88/1/95.pdf

Regarding Autophagy, has this ever been discussed here? Notice it's been added to the mix in more recent research.

Love,

Joanna

[Stanz]

I believe we are quoting from the same study source here, Joanna. I don't believe we've ever discussed Autophagy here.

[ant]

Do not know if this youtube lecture by Prof John Hermon Taylor has already been posted....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pYuf5rnnQo

ant