Secondary Glutenization! (Dogtor J)
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Secondary Glutenization! (Dogtor J)
DISCLAIMER: I am not a doctor and don't play one on TV.
LDN July 18, 2014
Joan
LDN July 18, 2014
Joan
Joan,
This is profound stuff, if true, because it flies in the face of conventional thinking, in terms of biochemical processes. I'm a bit gobsmacked, at the moment, and I'd sure like to see something other than empirical evidence, but since it came from none other than Dr. John Symes, (a man whose logic I trust implicitly), I have to assume that it's true, until proven otherwise.
I can see the possibility with milk, (because it is well known that mycotoxins can be transmitted in milk, and I can see how eggs might be a possible vector, but for this to be true of meat, is a mystery to me. Shame on me, for preaching a false doctrine, all these years.
Thanks for posting that.
Tex
This is profound stuff, if true, because it flies in the face of conventional thinking, in terms of biochemical processes. I'm a bit gobsmacked, at the moment, and I'd sure like to see something other than empirical evidence, but since it came from none other than Dr. John Symes, (a man whose logic I trust implicitly), I have to assume that it's true, until proven otherwise.I can see the possibility with milk, (because it is well known that mycotoxins can be transmitted in milk, and I can see how eggs might be a possible vector, but for this to be true of meat, is a mystery to me. Shame on me, for preaching a false doctrine, all these years.
Thanks for posting that.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
It appears that this lectin angle, (wheat germ agglutinin), has been known for at least 25 years. So why are we just now discovering that it supersedes conventional thinking about gluten sensitivity, (rather than supplements it, as is commonly thought)?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3839672
This, of course makes the lectin issue much more important, since it may explain why so many celiacs cannot reach remission simply by following the GF diet.
http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html
IOW, they are not only sensititive to wheat germ aglutinin, but also to other similar lectins, which can be found in grains such as quinoa, rice, barley, buckwheat, oats, rye, millet and corn, and this obviously fits certain people who have MC.
And, Joan, this presumably provides some credence to Dr. Peter DÁdamo's Blood Type Diet, (as per DogtorJ's endorsement of that concept).
Notice the list from the lectin article cited above, that tabulates the most likely food groups that contain lectins that are most likely to cause problems:
* Deadly nightshades including tomato, potato and eggplant.
* Glutens found in wheat, rye, barley, malt, and oats.
* Legumes, all beans including soy and peanut.
* Dairy including all milk products, milk, cheese, cottage cheese, yogurt, kefir.
* Eggs
Does that list look familiar?
So far, I haven't been able to find a scientific article proving that plant lectins can be transmitted in meat, but it seems logical that such should be the case, and here is a reference to it, so I suspect that such proof must exist, and that this is how wheat germ aglutinin, (WGA), is transmitted in meat:
http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=2131543
This whole fiasco appears to be a case of researchers who were trying to track down the cause of celiac disease, glomming onto the alpha gliadin peptide in gluten as the primary cause of celiac disease, while pretty much ignoring the fact that celiacs also react to other giadins, numerous glutenins, and similar lectins. Doctors like to keep it simple, and that is understandable, but unfortunately, celiac disease and the IBDs are not anywhere near as simple as they would like to claim that they are, and that is precisely why they have so much difficulty properly treating these diseases.
We've always known that lectins are a problem for many/most of us, (Matthew, especially, has been pointing that out for years), but this information begs a new way of looking at the problem. Apparently lectins are THE problem, and wheat gluten is simply a minor detail in the overall scheme of things, because it is the characteristics of lectins that determine how gluten is delivered to us.
Tex
P. S. This is a pretty good article that ties much of this together:
http://dogtorj.com/?page_id=256
Erythrocytes are the cells of which the epithelia of the intestines are comprised. It is between these cells that the lymphocytes that are the markers of LC tend to gather, and it is below these calls where the thickened collagen bands that mark CC are located.A lectin in gluten was detected by agglutination of papain-treated human erythrocytes. A partially purified lectin preparation was obtained by chromatography on immobilized ovalbumin. This fraction showed the same sugar specificity as wheat germ agglutinin (WGA). There was no indication of lectins with carbohydrate specificities different from WGA in the various gluten fractions examined. Small amounts of the gluten lectin was then isolated by using an affinity column with specificity for WGA. Analyses of this gluten lectin by sodium dodecyl sulphate-gel electrophoresis showed bands with the same mobility as that of purified WGA. Our results indicate that the lectin properties of gluten are due to traces of WGA. This finding is relevant for theories about the pathogenesis of coeliac disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3839672
This, of course makes the lectin issue much more important, since it may explain why so many celiacs cannot reach remission simply by following the GF diet.
http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html
IOW, they are not only sensititive to wheat germ aglutinin, but also to other similar lectins, which can be found in grains such as quinoa, rice, barley, buckwheat, oats, rye, millet and corn, and this obviously fits certain people who have MC.
And, Joan, this presumably provides some credence to Dr. Peter DÁdamo's Blood Type Diet, (as per DogtorJ's endorsement of that concept).
Notice the list from the lectin article cited above, that tabulates the most likely food groups that contain lectins that are most likely to cause problems:
* Deadly nightshades including tomato, potato and eggplant.
* Glutens found in wheat, rye, barley, malt, and oats.
* Legumes, all beans including soy and peanut.
* Dairy including all milk products, milk, cheese, cottage cheese, yogurt, kefir.
* Eggs
Does that list look familiar?
So far, I haven't been able to find a scientific article proving that plant lectins can be transmitted in meat, but it seems logical that such should be the case, and here is a reference to it, so I suspect that such proof must exist, and that this is how wheat germ aglutinin, (WGA), is transmitted in meat:
IOW, if a cow or chicken is fed wheat, then WGA can be embedded in virtually any part of the body, including the muscle tissue, fat, etc., that we eat, after that animal is processed for food.Lectin is a form of protein found in all foods but with higher concentrations in plant foods. Some lectins are "friendly" while others are extremely toxic to humans. Numerous studies have shown that the lectins in plant foods can penetrate the intestinal linings and deposit systemically within the body.
http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=2131543
This whole fiasco appears to be a case of researchers who were trying to track down the cause of celiac disease, glomming onto the alpha gliadin peptide in gluten as the primary cause of celiac disease, while pretty much ignoring the fact that celiacs also react to other giadins, numerous glutenins, and similar lectins. Doctors like to keep it simple, and that is understandable, but unfortunately, celiac disease and the IBDs are not anywhere near as simple as they would like to claim that they are, and that is precisely why they have so much difficulty properly treating these diseases.
We've always known that lectins are a problem for many/most of us, (Matthew, especially, has been pointing that out for years), but this information begs a new way of looking at the problem. Apparently lectins are THE problem, and wheat gluten is simply a minor detail in the overall scheme of things, because it is the characteristics of lectins that determine how gluten is delivered to us.
Tex
P. S. This is a pretty good article that ties much of this together:
http://dogtorj.com/?page_id=256
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Wayne and all-
Isn’t that an amazing twist in the path this adventure has led us on. The lectin connection was an enormous breakthrough for me years ago. I consider it one of the things that has lead me to feel as well as I do now.
I will certainly have to look harder for grass- fed beef, grain free eggs and range- fed chicken. I have eaten “natural meats” for some time and they work fairly well but DogtorJ’s article puts a very different twist on the the whole thing.
I am really lucky that my older brother and my two oldest nephews hunt on a regular basis and bring me meat a couple of times a year. Mostly the ground meat but it is delicious and you can’t look a gift horse in the mouth, right? I wonder how many of those deer feed on the leavings in the grain fields and if that might still be a problem.
Farm raised salmon has never worked very well for me but the sea caught product is fantastic. Never thought about how the farm raised stuff is fed grains because I, like you , never thought it would be a problem.
Pretty exciting stuff. If I ever get out of the shop I will have to see if I can find more about it. In the mean time I look forward to reading anything you and others can come up with.
Love
Matthew
P.S. By the way our wonderful member Joanna (harvesttable) has provided many useful articles on lectins also.
Isn’t that an amazing twist in the path this adventure has led us on. The lectin connection was an enormous breakthrough for me years ago. I consider it one of the things that has lead me to feel as well as I do now.
I will certainly have to look harder for grass- fed beef, grain free eggs and range- fed chicken. I have eaten “natural meats” for some time and they work fairly well but DogtorJ’s article puts a very different twist on the the whole thing.
I am really lucky that my older brother and my two oldest nephews hunt on a regular basis and bring me meat a couple of times a year. Mostly the ground meat but it is delicious and you can’t look a gift horse in the mouth, right? I wonder how many of those deer feed on the leavings in the grain fields and if that might still be a problem.
Farm raised salmon has never worked very well for me but the sea caught product is fantastic. Never thought about how the farm raised stuff is fed grains because I, like you , never thought it would be a problem.
Pretty exciting stuff. If I ever get out of the shop I will have to see if I can find more about it. In the mean time I look forward to reading anything you and others can come up with.
Love
Matthew
P.S. By the way our wonderful member Joanna (harvesttable) has provided many useful articles on lectins also.
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Linda in BC
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 801
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:39 am
- Location: Creston British Columbia
Interesting article. Thank you for posting it, Joan. The other week I complained on here that I had eaten a meal of wild game, potatoes and carrots and had reacted, and was quite surprised by this.. that particular animal had been grazing in farmer's fields.... we usually just have venison from the bush. This was supposed to be a real treat when my SO got it last fall.. and it is very tender.... .
Linda
Linda
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."
The 13th Dali Lama
The 13th Dali Lama
If those fields ever grow wheat, rye, barley, or triticale, and the animal grazed there after the grain, (seed), developed, then apparently this could have caused your reaction, (if your reaction threshold is extremely low).
Tex
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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MaggieRedwings
- King Penguin
- Posts: 3865
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 3:16 am
- Location: SE Pennsylvania
HA! I reacted to rice.
I hate lectins and I hate MC.
Guess I will have to look for grass fed meat.
I think I posted Susan Thixton's (Truth About Pet Food) article about fish being sent to China for processing.
My new intolerances have made me very stressed and depressed. Losing my hair hasn't helped either.
I hate lectins and I hate MC.
Guess I will have to look for grass fed meat.
I think I posted Susan Thixton's (Truth About Pet Food) article about fish being sent to China for processing.
My new intolerances have made me very stressed and depressed. Losing my hair hasn't helped either.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a doctor and don't play one on TV.
LDN July 18, 2014
Joan
LDN July 18, 2014
Joan
I've been eating exclusively grass fed meat for a while now. There are a lot of farms that send it from anywhere in the country. Slanker's is good. There stuff is usually well packed, arrives frozen and is no more expensive than other farms. But it's expensive. Make no mistake. I find if I make sure I eat a small portion and order the cheaper cuts it isn't that bad.