Two Harvard engineers are to spray sun-reflecting chemical particles into the atmosphere to artificially cool the planet, using a balloon flying 80,000 feet over Fort Sumner, New Mexico.
The field experiment in solar geoengineering aims to ultimately create a technology to replicate the observed effects of volcanoes that spew sulphates into the stratosphere, using sulphate aerosols to bounce sunlight back to space and decrease the temperature of the Earth.
Sometimes I feel like I've landed on an alien planet...
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Sometimes I feel like I've landed on an alien planet...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... NETTXT9038
Well I'll be a . . .
The petroleum industry spends billions of dollars annually, to remove sulfur from diesel fuel in order to meet government mandates to minimize the emission of sulfates into the atmosphere and thereby reduce the formation of acid rain. The trucking, agriculture, and construction industries primarily foot the bill for that process. Yes, air pollution can help to cool the planet, but what gives those bozos the right to ignore all the rules that everyone else has to play by, in the name of science? If they want to study the effects of air pollution on global cooling, all they would have to do is to go to one of China's industrial districts.
Shouldn't we be irked that we have to pay a premium for low-sulfur diesel, while they propose a half-baked remedy for global warming that fills the air with the same stuff that we're paying to keep out.
Tex
The petroleum industry spends billions of dollars annually, to remove sulfur from diesel fuel in order to meet government mandates to minimize the emission of sulfates into the atmosphere and thereby reduce the formation of acid rain. The trucking, agriculture, and construction industries primarily foot the bill for that process. Yes, air pollution can help to cool the planet, but what gives those bozos the right to ignore all the rules that everyone else has to play by, in the name of science? If they want to study the effects of air pollution on global cooling, all they would have to do is to go to one of China's industrial districts.
Shouldn't we be irked that we have to pay a premium for low-sulfur diesel, while they propose a half-baked remedy for global warming that fills the air with the same stuff that we're paying to keep out.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Why can't they just use water vapor? I read a fascinating article about this. Remember when they closed down all airports after the 9/11 attacks? For at least 24 (maybe more?) hours there were no planes flying above the U.S. Scientists measured the upper air temperatures over the country at that time and found them to be hotter (by a few degrees if I remember correctly) than usual because there were no planes releasing cooling water vapor. At least water vapor would be safe to breathe.
Polly
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
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Joefnh
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Polly you are correct when the planes stopped flying the temperatures did rise 2.11 degrees F during the day BUT during the night when the earth radiantly cools the heat stored during the day the temperatures went down 3.07 degrees F. Not having the particles in the atmosphere at night allowed for the longer wavelengths of heat to be transferred back out to space at a faster rate than when the planes were flying
Overall it was a net improvement for climate warming to not have the planes flying. Up to a point having particles in the atmosphere will cause warming, until the number of particles overcomes the amount of heat reaching the earths surface.
Overall it was a net improvement for climate warming to not have the planes flying. Up to a point having particles in the atmosphere will cause warming, until the number of particles overcomes the amount of heat reaching the earths surface.
Joe
Interesting, Joe, about the net improvement not to have planes flying. Of course, The fossil fuel needed to keep all of those planes in the air is undoubtedly contributing to the warming to begin with! 
Hugs,
Polly
Hugs,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
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Joefnh
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- Location: Southern New Hampshire
Polly overall the energy needed to manufacture and support the planes is a large number. But while it is certain that we are living in a time of climate change...the earth has always had a record of climate change, up and down.
What is not talked about much is this nice big light bulb over our heads (namely the sun) that puts out 380,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of heat per SECOND
In 1 day the entire world uses enough oil (3,192,000,000 gallons) which will produce 1,514,722,222 watts of enery for every second of the day.
OR to put it simply humans burn only...
0.000000000000000046 %
Of what the sun puts out .... Basically a very very small number
If the suns output during its normal long term cycles varies by as little as 0.000001% (which it has and currently does) it will vary the temperature of the earth by roughly 1 degree centigrade.
Now with the energy lesson set aside, we while burning fossil fuels have changed the CO2 levels by about 22% in the atmosphere, which can and will have some effect on the climate. Current research that is just now taking into account the slow and small changes on the suns output of heat is finding the largest contributor to climate change is that VERY big heat lamp over our heads, namely the sun.
We can and shoud do better than we are when it comes to satisfying our energy needs, but be careful blaming the changes in the climate mainly on fossil fuels, while a factor they are not the main contributor by far.
Lesley it would be great if we could find alternate sources of fuel and better methods of propulsion, long term its a necessity.
What is not talked about much is this nice big light bulb over our heads (namely the sun) that puts out 380,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts of heat per SECOND
In 1 day the entire world uses enough oil (3,192,000,000 gallons) which will produce 1,514,722,222 watts of enery for every second of the day.
OR to put it simply humans burn only...
0.000000000000000046 %
Of what the sun puts out .... Basically a very very small number
If the suns output during its normal long term cycles varies by as little as 0.000001% (which it has and currently does) it will vary the temperature of the earth by roughly 1 degree centigrade.
Now with the energy lesson set aside, we while burning fossil fuels have changed the CO2 levels by about 22% in the atmosphere, which can and will have some effect on the climate. Current research that is just now taking into account the slow and small changes on the suns output of heat is finding the largest contributor to climate change is that VERY big heat lamp over our heads, namely the sun.
We can and shoud do better than we are when it comes to satisfying our energy needs, but be careful blaming the changes in the climate mainly on fossil fuels, while a factor they are not the main contributor by far.
Lesley it would be great if we could find alternate sources of fuel and better methods of propulsion, long term its a necessity.
Joe
Joe,
You've resurrected a topic dear to my heart.
Another parameter that is bound to influence the cyclic warming and cooling of this planet is the earth's "wobble" in it's imperfect orbit. On a long-term basis, our distance from the sun varies enough because of the "wobble" to have a powerful effect on long-term warming and cooling cycles. In fact, I wonder if this factor isn't a much more significant influence than the natural variation in the sun's thermal output.
The "experts with agendas" who blame "global warming" on the inefficiencies of human attempts to make life easier and more enjoyable always fail to mention these particular deviations in orbital cycles that have occurred through history. Indisputable proof that it has happened numerous times in our distant past, and the dramatic effects that it has caused, can be found in the fossil records, which clearly show that at various times in the past, the arctic has supported tropical plants and animals. And the widespread remains of ancient reefs on mountain tops in northern Mexico, West Texas, and New Mexico prove that the oceans were at extremely high levels (compared to present levels) at times in the distant past. No one was burning fossil fuels back in those days. In fact, humans didn't even exist when the most dramatic excursions occurred.
Tex
You've resurrected a topic dear to my heart.
Another parameter that is bound to influence the cyclic warming and cooling of this planet is the earth's "wobble" in it's imperfect orbit. On a long-term basis, our distance from the sun varies enough because of the "wobble" to have a powerful effect on long-term warming and cooling cycles. In fact, I wonder if this factor isn't a much more significant influence than the natural variation in the sun's thermal output.The "experts with agendas" who blame "global warming" on the inefficiencies of human attempts to make life easier and more enjoyable always fail to mention these particular deviations in orbital cycles that have occurred through history. Indisputable proof that it has happened numerous times in our distant past, and the dramatic effects that it has caused, can be found in the fossil records, which clearly show that at various times in the past, the arctic has supported tropical plants and animals. And the widespread remains of ancient reefs on mountain tops in northern Mexico, West Texas, and New Mexico prove that the oceans were at extremely high levels (compared to present levels) at times in the distant past. No one was burning fossil fuels back in those days. In fact, humans didn't even exist when the most dramatic excursions occurred.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Joefnh
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- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:25 pm
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Hi Tex, your absolutely correct. There are 3 main non-human key factors that influence our climate, which are:
-Solar variances (including solar flares)
-Earths orbital mechanics (as you pointed out)
-Earths core surface influence (remember we live on a ball that is about 90% molten lava at 4500 degrees and is about 8000 miles in diameter )
Overall our contribution to the greenhouse affect is real but it is not the main contributor by a long shot. Climate change will continue to happen long after the oil is used up and has been occurring for at least the last 3200 years that we have been able to measure in the fossil and other geologic records. Actually data released just last week by NASA actually shows that earths long term trend for the last 3000 years is that we have cooled down about 2.6 degrees F
One fact we have to remember we are very slowly pulling away from the sun which will result in cooling.
-Solar variances (including solar flares)
-Earths orbital mechanics (as you pointed out)
-Earths core surface influence (remember we live on a ball that is about 90% molten lava at 4500 degrees and is about 8000 miles in diameter )
Overall our contribution to the greenhouse affect is real but it is not the main contributor by a long shot. Climate change will continue to happen long after the oil is used up and has been occurring for at least the last 3200 years that we have been able to measure in the fossil and other geologic records. Actually data released just last week by NASA actually shows that earths long term trend for the last 3000 years is that we have cooled down about 2.6 degrees F
One fact we have to remember we are very slowly pulling away from the sun which will result in cooling.
Joe
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MBombardier
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- Location: Vancouver, WA
Angy, 
I agree with you, Joe and Tex. Although no doubt man's industry has an effect on the temperature of the earth, in my opinion, it is the height of arrogance to think that man can influence the climate more than the sun or the earth itself. Not only the examples you gave, but my father and were discussing the eruptions of Krakatoa and Mt.Pinatubo the other day and how they influenced the climate globally for some time.
I agree with you, Joe and Tex. Although no doubt man's industry has an effect on the temperature of the earth, in my opinion, it is the height of arrogance to think that man can influence the climate more than the sun or the earth itself. Not only the examples you gave, but my father and were discussing the eruptions of Krakatoa and Mt.Pinatubo the other day and how they influenced the climate globally for some time.
Marliss Bombardier
Dum spiro, spero -- While I breathe, I hope
Psoriasis - the dark ages
Hashimoto's Thyroiditis - Dec 2001
Collagenous Colitis - Sept 2010
Granuloma Annulare - June 2011
Dum spiro, spero -- While I breathe, I hope
Psoriasis - the dark ages
Hashimoto's Thyroiditis - Dec 2001
Collagenous Colitis - Sept 2010
Granuloma Annulare - June 2011
Joe,
Do you know what percent of global warming the climate scientists believe is actually due to human contributions (not just fossil fuels, but overpopulation, deforestation, etc.)? Human activities may not be the major cause, but they are significant in that they are factors we DO have control over, unlike nature.
Natural and human phenomena both impact our climate, IMHO. The earth's climate is directly related to what's in the atmosphere up to 6 miles above us. That is a very small amount of space for continued contamination. Similar to the skin on an onion. I'm not as concerned about particles from volcanic eruptions that eventually fall to the ground, but I wonder how much CO2 the earth can continue to absorb. The oceans can't continue to absorb CO2 at the rate that they have - unfortunate changes are already occurring in them.
Polly
Do you know what percent of global warming the climate scientists believe is actually due to human contributions (not just fossil fuels, but overpopulation, deforestation, etc.)? Human activities may not be the major cause, but they are significant in that they are factors we DO have control over, unlike nature.
Natural and human phenomena both impact our climate, IMHO. The earth's climate is directly related to what's in the atmosphere up to 6 miles above us. That is a very small amount of space for continued contamination. Similar to the skin on an onion. I'm not as concerned about particles from volcanic eruptions that eventually fall to the ground, but I wonder how much CO2 the earth can continue to absorb. The oceans can't continue to absorb CO2 at the rate that they have - unfortunate changes are already occurring in them.
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
I am about as far from understanding science as I am from being able to perform an Irish jig! But what you just said makes perfect sense to me. To an ignoramus like me I can only understand it thus: we can only change what is in our control, very much like our diets. We can only control it completely in our own homes. As soon as we go out to eat we relinquish control and then are in the hands of outside forces.
That's the infantile explanation I use so I can understand it.
In 1973, after the first gulf war, the price of gas rose astronomically. Among other measures a law was passed in Israel that mandated every new building from then on had to install solar water heating to reduce the use of fossil fuel and to take advantage of the energy source which is MORE than plentiful in that part of the world. The mandate carried with it price breaks and tax breaks to help defray the costs.
Businesses and families in older buildings were given grants and significant tax breaks to do the same thing.
I can attest that, especially during the summer, my personal power bills went down astronomically.
For the life of me I can't understand why the same isn't done here.
I am about as far from understanding science as I am from being able to perform an Irish jig! But what you just said makes perfect sense to me. To an ignoramus like me I can only understand it thus: we can only change what is in our control, very much like our diets. We can only control it completely in our own homes. As soon as we go out to eat we relinquish control and then are in the hands of outside forces.
That's the infantile explanation I use so I can understand it.
In 1973, after the first gulf war, the price of gas rose astronomically. Among other measures a law was passed in Israel that mandated every new building from then on had to install solar water heating to reduce the use of fossil fuel and to take advantage of the energy source which is MORE than plentiful in that part of the world. The mandate carried with it price breaks and tax breaks to help defray the costs.
Businesses and families in older buildings were given grants and significant tax breaks to do the same thing.
I can attest that, especially during the summer, my personal power bills went down astronomically.
For the life of me I can't understand why the same isn't done here.