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Are anti-histamines worth it?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:26 pm
by kbb
Hi all:
So, I am in phase 1 of the diet. My symptoms, thank the Lord, have never been really really bad. I'm more chasing down health to keep healthy if you know what I mean. I still have loose stools and what I've noticed, if I take anti-histamines it goes from about 3 a day to 1 a day. Roughly... I don't know why I have histamine issues, I just know I do. I get that there can be different reasons but I haven't finished running down that rabbit hole yet.
Here's what I'm wondering, in my case, given that my symptoms are manageable, is it advisable for me to take anti-histamines to keep my symptoms at bay. From the reading I've done I see no indication that it's actually helping me to heal so much as managing the symptoms. I don't like taking meds, which is what I'm here trying to avoid in the future, but I like not having to worry about histamine, and 'knowing' if I have a reaction it was not from that. But I'm thinking it's probably best not to mess with my already messed up system if I don't need too.
Since anti-histamines only address H1 and H2 receptors, I'm still getting the rest and a false sense of "don't have to worry about histamine" then right? I have caught myself avoiding high histamine foods less when I'm taking them. But have no idea how much of this is pollen vs food too.
Also, I started taking Thorne Methylguard 4/21. I was hoping to start that and stop the anti-histamines but I can totally tell when I stop the anti-histamines so I'm regrouping.
Let me know what ya think.
Thanks
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:43 pm
by tex
Antihistamines are most helpful if you have mast cell activation disorder, or if you're weaning off budesonide (to minimize the effects of a mast cell rebound), or if you have mast cells that are over-active for any reason. But yes, they have other uses in some cases. Did you know that antidepressants are powerful antihistamines? This is why doctors were sometimes able to control D in some MC cases by prescribing antidepressants, (back before budesonide came along).
Antihistamines are generally safe (at doses up to 4x the labeled rate for months or years, if needed), but they can cause the body to develop a dependency, so their use is best limited (or at least interrupted from time to time). In addition to taking B-6, there are ways you can limit/preempt/prevent the need for antihistamines by modifying your behavior to prevent/minimize the degranulation of mast cells. (Mast cells release histamine when they degranulate.) To save typing (and time) I'm going to copy this from an old post:
Many drugs also promote the release of histamines. Fortunately, if I watch my diet carefully, that's often sufficient. It's not enough during pollen season, or if I'm exposed to other triggers, but usually in those situations a daily 180 mg Allegra tablet will be adequate. Before I made adjustments, the itching used to be maddening, especially during hot weather and/or following a hot shower. I would wake up during the night scratching, and as you pointed out, then the itching would become a burning sensation.
It helps to never refrigerate leftovers that are to be eaten later. Histamine levels in foods that are prone to histamine propagation (such as chicken, fish, bananas, etc., continue to increase at refrigeration temperatures. It's necessary to freeze foods (at zero degrees F or below) in order to stop the histamine levels from continuing to increase. Many of us prepare food in batches, but immediately freeze it in serving-size containers and then thaw and quickly reheat (or microwave) as needed.
For example, I can cook chicken soup, store it in the fridge, and eat it up to a few hours later with no problems. If I eat some a day later, I might have minor (barely noticeable) symptoms. If I eat it 2 days later, I will have moderate symptoms (definitely noticeable, but not severe — mild to moderate bloating, mild to moderate itching). By the third day, if I eat soup that has been stored at refrigerator temperatures, I will have severe symptoms (major bloating and severe itching, often marked by not only a rash, but weals). Needless to say, I don't do that anymore.
I can eat bananas if they are barely ripe, because at that stage they are still a low-histamine food. But after another day or 2, as they become noticeably ripe, or past ripe, they will make me itch like mad. And yes, I peel and freeze bananas (in ziploc bags) as they barely become ripe. They make great snacks (treats) when slathered with cashew butter or almond butter (if you can tolerate either of them).
Most mainstream medical professionals don't understand mast cell issues, and they are almost totally unprepared to treat them effectively. I would assume that these days most allergists should understand mastocytosis, but unfortunately as far as I'm aware, mast cell activation disorder (MCAD) is still a total mystery to most of them. Most of us are dealing with MCAD, rather than mastocytosis, but the treatment is pretty much the same (or at least very similar).
Tex
My thoughts on antihistamines are: If you need 'em, use 'um. If you don't need 'em, don't take 'em.
Tex
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:55 pm
by Erica P-G
Kelly,
Since your symptoms seem relatively low except the histamine, give upping the B6 a try for a few day to the tune of 100-200 mg and then back off to around 50-100 daily as a maintenance dose.
Ever since I got off the Allegra and Benadryl I feel much better although I still the run the risk of not knowing exactly how much B6 I'm going to need in any given day so I punt alot.
I don't have perfect bowel movements to this day, it all depends on what kind of day - stress - over activity - what i've eaten - how i've eaten it - geez the list can go on an on......anyway what I'm trying to say is I know I've felt much better upping the B6 along with maintaining all the other handy supplements I do on a daily basis.
Hang in there, you'll hit upon the right combo soon!
Erica
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:53 am
by kbb
Thank you Tex and Erica for your replies. I think I will follow the advice from both of you. I'll save the Zyrtec for days when I need to leave the house early in the day ( IE when I need it like Tex suggested ), and I'm upping my Methylguard for a few days. I was just taking one capsule a day. I'm going to do 3 a day for a bit to see if I can tell any difference.
Thank you much.
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:56 pm
by Gabes-Apg
to expand on Tex's and Erica's replies
we need small amount of histamine for healthy digestion - the problems come when we have too much histamine
taking antihistamines long term is not ideal - using the magnesium and B6(via P5P) to 'balance' histamine is the ideal
but for times when there is increased exposure to triggers, or your body is under other stresses, then using anti-histamines is very viable.
4 years ago I was reliant on high dose anti-histamines (H1 and H2) daily...
thankfully now with B6 and magnesium deficiencies resolved I dont need antihistamines at all, even when I am near high allergy triggers. It took me 12 months of good doses of the B6 and magnesium to get to this stage...
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:45 am
by jlbattin
How much B6 is too much? I thought I read where you shouldn't take more than 100 mg a day. Erica, how much do you take to help with the histamines?
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:41 pm
by Gabes-Apg
Jari
for some people, having high dose B6 can cause 'B6 toxicity' as their body is not converting the B6 into active useable form well enough (this is one of the roles of the methylation cycle)
if you use P5P form for supplementaiton (active form of B6), this reduces the risk of B6 toxicity big time.
histamine is not the only big user of B6 in our bodies, hormones is another and here is some other key functions:-
Functions of Vitamin B6
Production of healthy red blood cells
Critical for a healthy immune system
Essential for protein and fat metabolism
May alleviate symptoms of PMS / PMT
Required for normal nervous system function
Helps prevent osteoporosis
Essential for proper cell division and multiplication
Involved in over 60 enzymes
Reduces stress-related problems
Can help prevent cancer
for me and my combo of issues (I have a condition that depletes B6, I took over 100 mg for over a year to resolve the deficiency. my maintenance dose is about 75mg per day.
as per Erica's post here: she mentions her dosage
http://perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 5&start=15
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:35 am
by kbb
Thanks all for your input here.
To provide an update I'm doing ok without anti-histamines. Mosquito season has started at my house so I'm in the phase of is that a mosquito bite or a hive? So far they all are mosquito bites so I need to start staying inside at dusk and dawn again, hate spraying myself with DEET, at least if I'm not going to stay outside for a while. But the mosquitos have always LOVED me.
Still trying to figure out the right dose of methylguard and determine if changing the dose helps me or not, so still playing with that. I did determine that larabars ( cashew cookie ) were presenting a problem for me big time. Not sure if it's the sugar in the dried fruit, histamine (dates) or just too much since I don't do moderation well, but I was getting in a bad habit of picking some of those up when I was out and about for a snack but I don't save them for that. I only go into the office once a week, but it's 1.5 hour drive each way and I can't seem to bring enough food with me those days that I don't feel like I want to grab something on my way home. It might be in my head, a kind of anxiety about being away from my kitchen/control. Need to find another transportable snack that doesn't have sugar in it so I don't abuse it. Anyway, that was a problem and killed that. Tried pouched salmon (can't see me abusing that!) yesterday and I think that was a problem, probably the histamine, headache, light headed etc... Maybe it wasn't even related and I just don't want to eat pouched salmon. I carried it around with me for a couple weeks before I finally dove in. Wasn't as bad as I expected.
Anyway, I just feel blessed that I have you guys to help support/teach me, and that I can actually tell the difference when I change something now, nothing seemed to make a difference when I started on the support forum. So huge progress, not as fast as I would like of course, but just have to remind myself super huge.
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:01 pm
by Erica P-G
Hi Kelly,
Great update!
Just an idea, but fritos (unless corn is an issue) and Oberto Regular jerky
https://www.oberto.com/original may be an option, I know it has some sugars in it, but very minimal compared to most snack ideas and it has good protein so it is satisfying.
I used to do Lara bar Cashew, and now I have minimized it as something I eat often. I to feel the fiber and sugar may be an issue.
I have not had to take any antihistamine since I posted last. The B6 is doing the trick and there is lots of Cottonwood flying around, and trees leafing, grasses being cut you name it, in the PNW right now.
Also this article was interesting regarding mosquitoes
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... llent.aspx I have been taking B1 (thiamine) daily for a couple weeks now, unbeknownst to the mosquito saga and I have only had 1 bite and I think that bite was just in the beginning stages of taking the B1. So who knows....I have been in and outside off an on at different times of the day. The real test will be when we go camping during the 4th of July....
Good Luck!
Erica
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:47 am
by kbb
Hi Erica:
Thanks for the feedback. I was a 1 on corn on my enterolab tests so I've been avoiding it until at least I'm in remission. The jerky is interesting, have you found that to be readily available or do you have to order it online and carry it with you?
The article is interesting... I'll have to try some of those strategies. The mosquitos love me.
Thanks!
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:24 am
by Erica P-G
Hi Kelly,
I was a 1 with corn on Enterolab also....and I rotate it in my diet every few days, but it doesn't seem to be bothering me if I eat a little bit every couple days now.
I have found the Original Jerky in the gluten free area cereal aisle at Walmart....so it is surely available most everywhere. I seem to do just fine with it and beef was one of my higher reactors...I don't eat it every day though. It also comes in small packages easy to carry in anything.
Good luck with those pesky mosquitoes!
