Hi all,
Keep forgetting to mention this, but I am hypoparathyroid. Read over on celiac.com a reference to a study that showed cross-sensitivity from the anti-endomesial antibody to the parathyroid tissue.
When/IF the parathyroid goes out, ya HAFTA take calcium, so guess if that happens, I'll have to have something give me an electric shock or something to make me take it.
Anyway, anyone else have low
PARAthyroid hormone?
Yours, Luce
Anyone besides me have hypoparathyroidism? Anti-endomial,,,
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Hi Luce!
That is interesting......I didn't know that. Were your parathyroid glands removed with thyroid surgery, or did this just develop on its own?
I don't recall anyone here ever mentioning this problem, but I would have noticed, because my dog developed hypoparathyroidim about 3 years ago. He has done well on calcitriol every day.
Apparently it is rare in dogs, so I couldn't find much info about possible causes - but I am strongly suspicious of an autoimmune problem - either due to vaccinations or food (especially the grains like corn and wheat that make up so much of the commercial dog food). So, I have put my dog on the paleo diet - it's called "BARF" when given to dogs (bones and raw meat). It's basically what the wolf eats in the wild (the common ancestor of all dogs). Did you know that wolves and paleo people ate pretty much the same food - they followed each other around in early times and tried to chase each other away from their "kills" in order to eat. Rusty now eats raw meat mixed with a lots of the fruits and veggies we eat - with flaxseeds and a few other goodies thrown in. And he is crazy about it. He also gets a few raw marrow bones to chew on per week.
Anyway, tell me more about your problem.
Love,
Polly
That is interesting......I didn't know that. Were your parathyroid glands removed with thyroid surgery, or did this just develop on its own?
I don't recall anyone here ever mentioning this problem, but I would have noticed, because my dog developed hypoparathyroidim about 3 years ago. He has done well on calcitriol every day.
Apparently it is rare in dogs, so I couldn't find much info about possible causes - but I am strongly suspicious of an autoimmune problem - either due to vaccinations or food (especially the grains like corn and wheat that make up so much of the commercial dog food). So, I have put my dog on the paleo diet - it's called "BARF" when given to dogs (bones and raw meat). It's basically what the wolf eats in the wild (the common ancestor of all dogs). Did you know that wolves and paleo people ate pretty much the same food - they followed each other around in early times and tried to chase each other away from their "kills" in order to eat. Rusty now eats raw meat mixed with a lots of the fruits and veggies we eat - with flaxseeds and a few other goodies thrown in. And he is crazy about it. He also gets a few raw marrow bones to chew on per week.
Anyway, tell me more about your problem.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
I'm glad to see that your dog is lucky enough to still get to enjoy a traditional diet. A week or so ago, one of the TV news shows that I happened to catch while getting ready for work, aired a feature promoting the claim that dogs shouldn't be allowed to chew on things, (such as the leather "chews" and bones sold for that purpose), due to the risk of choking and/or perforations of the digestive tract by splintered bones, etc.
Well duh! Dogs evolved chewing on bones and hides. All species have to be careful that they don't choke or perforate a gut with a sharp object, it's not just a problem unique to dogs. We humans have the same problems.
I also think you're right about the fruit and vegetables. I seldom encounter anyone who feeds their dogs fruit and/or veggies. We don't have any wild wolves in this part of the country, but the wild coyotes love to raid watermellon fields, and certain other vegetable fields, and they'll grab any peaches, or any other fruit they can find. They love to raid corn fields when the corn is in the roasting ear stage, also, and they will occasionally eat corn after it is mature, if they can't find something better.
Their dens are usually surrounded not only by bones and feathers, but also by peach pits, and corn cobs, so presumably they carry these items to their young, before they are old enough to leave the den. I'm sure they carry other fruits and veggies to their dens also, but most of the others don't leave any residues for evidence.
To my way of thinking, there are few creatures happier than a dog chewing on a good bone.
Love,
Tex
I'm glad to see that your dog is lucky enough to still get to enjoy a traditional diet. A week or so ago, one of the TV news shows that I happened to catch while getting ready for work, aired a feature promoting the claim that dogs shouldn't be allowed to chew on things, (such as the leather "chews" and bones sold for that purpose), due to the risk of choking and/or perforations of the digestive tract by splintered bones, etc.
Well duh! Dogs evolved chewing on bones and hides. All species have to be careful that they don't choke or perforate a gut with a sharp object, it's not just a problem unique to dogs. We humans have the same problems.
I also think you're right about the fruit and vegetables. I seldom encounter anyone who feeds their dogs fruit and/or veggies. We don't have any wild wolves in this part of the country, but the wild coyotes love to raid watermellon fields, and certain other vegetable fields, and they'll grab any peaches, or any other fruit they can find. They love to raid corn fields when the corn is in the roasting ear stage, also, and they will occasionally eat corn after it is mature, if they can't find something better.
Their dens are usually surrounded not only by bones and feathers, but also by peach pits, and corn cobs, so presumably they carry these items to their young, before they are old enough to leave the den. I'm sure they carry other fruits and veggies to their dens also, but most of the others don't leave any residues for evidence.
To my way of thinking, there are few creatures happier than a dog chewing on a good bone.
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi Wayne,
Very interesting observations! You know, there is just as much controversy in the vet world about the BARF diet for dogs as there is in the medical (human) world about the paleo diet. LOL! My vet was opposed to this diet - she said that the commercial dry dog food was the only nutritionally complete food. Well, if so, then tell me why it has to be fortified with all those vitamins and minerals? Also, can you imagine the preservatives it contains with a shelf life of literally YEARS!?
My vet has (reluctantly, I'm sure) been impressed with how healthy Rusty is on this diet - his coat is thicker and shinier, his weight stable (skinny) and he walks (runs) 4 miles a day and swims in the river in addtition on many days. BTW he is 10 years old and shows no evidence of aging yet - clear eyes, no arthritis, great hearing, great teeth. He no longer gets hot spots or ear mites. And boy does he LOVE his raw food!! He pushes the bowl around the kitchen for about 5 minutes trying to get every morsel!
And you are correct - it is sheer delight to watch him when he has a bone! He seems "transported" to another realm when he is gnawing away. LOL! From what I have read, the only time marrow bones splinter is when they have been cooked first. So he gets raw bones.
I do know that this diet is a luxury for Rusty (as is the paleo diet is for me) as you have pointed out in the past. The world's resources could not support the present population on this kind of a diet. In fact, I have read that if we all ate paleo, there would be only 1/10th of the current population.
Love,
Polly
Very interesting observations! You know, there is just as much controversy in the vet world about the BARF diet for dogs as there is in the medical (human) world about the paleo diet. LOL! My vet was opposed to this diet - she said that the commercial dry dog food was the only nutritionally complete food. Well, if so, then tell me why it has to be fortified with all those vitamins and minerals? Also, can you imagine the preservatives it contains with a shelf life of literally YEARS!?
My vet has (reluctantly, I'm sure) been impressed with how healthy Rusty is on this diet - his coat is thicker and shinier, his weight stable (skinny) and he walks (runs) 4 miles a day and swims in the river in addtition on many days. BTW he is 10 years old and shows no evidence of aging yet - clear eyes, no arthritis, great hearing, great teeth. He no longer gets hot spots or ear mites. And boy does he LOVE his raw food!! He pushes the bowl around the kitchen for about 5 minutes trying to get every morsel!
And you are correct - it is sheer delight to watch him when he has a bone! He seems "transported" to another realm when he is gnawing away. LOL! From what I have read, the only time marrow bones splinter is when they have been cooked first. So he gets raw bones.
I do know that this diet is a luxury for Rusty (as is the paleo diet is for me) as you have pointed out in the past. The world's resources could not support the present population on this kind of a diet. In fact, I have read that if we all ate paleo, there would be only 1/10th of the current population.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Polly,
I'd never had the parathyroids checked before the thyroid glands were removed that I know of, but the endo checked all that after the results of the bone scan. After that, he checked the urine for the bone turnover stuff, and the latter was fine.
Incidentally, my phosphate level was elevated also, which I understand goes with this condition -- another reason not to drink most carbonated drinks.
I was being good and taking the calcium and minerals as well as lots of Vit D when these tests were done, but since then, have just gotten off course quite a bit.
I iguess that's why I'm having to use calicum from my bones instead. Dumb I know.
Almost time for the repeat bone scan but I'm going to try to get myself up to spead for a long while before retaking the bone scan, but regardless of what it is next, don't think I want to start medication just yet for the bone loss.
I did have the so-called "autotransplant" for the parathyroids when my thyroids were removed, but I don't believe the hypoparathyroidism is caused from damage caused by the surgery, particularly since this ENT is very particular and does these surgeries all the time.
I suspect that since my antibodies on Dr. Fine's tests were up, showing I was forming antibodies to the small bowel tissue, that I had this crossover with the anti-endomesial antibody attacking the parathyroid as well.
I'll have to find that lab report someday, and post it one of these days. At first, I thought there was some kind of suppression going on due to all the supplementation I was on at the time.
I don't think I have obvious symptoms, other than bone loss on the scans, but that would happen if the bod wasn't able to get enough calcium from the bones, right" That's at the point at which the parathyroids are completely not functioning, right? I suppose they eventually could just get overworked having to produce so much hormone, trying to get the bones to give up so much calcium.
It's kind of scary waiting to see what happens when the parathyroids go out, but then, if I'm so concerned about it, why don't I ever want to take the supplements! I think I get enough sun for the vitamin D on some days, at least, but then, it's getting later in the year, and we've had a few clouds, and that stuff the experts call rain alot lately, unlike our kinsman in the rest of the state.
I have a friend I know has the same condition we have, and she had her parathyroid die a few years after having the thyroids out. After that, she had some kind of brain tumor removed -- supposed to have been the best of the family of tumors it belonged to, at least. I don't know the name of it, however.
Would you think drinking that carbonated mineral water in the glass bottles, a little every day, would provide the necessary minerals, besides the calcium?
I notice that the soup stocks you see in regular stores that seem to be gf (haven't checked yet, however) aren't made with bones.
I thought that was essential to making soup stock, so why do you think these products aren't made with it?
Do you ever make your own stock, and if so, do you make it with bones?
Refresh our memories on what happened with your dog when the parathyroid went out, please? I want to know what I'm in for, at least.
Wow, I need to find that lab sheet, and rethink those results before posting on this again.
Doc did say definitely NOT to take ANY MORE calcium than I was taking at the time as that could cause worse problems. He said that part I was doing exactly right at that time.
Know what, now I'm wishing that I'd ordered a repeat of that anti-small bowel tissue antibody test. Figure if the diet has brought that back to normal, then at least I wouldn't be contributing to my parathyroid's problems. As I recall, however, PTH was pretty low.
Polly, I've always suspected the hypothalmus is somehow involved in all this. I was amazed to hear the environmental doc talking with some of the other speakers around the dinner table one night in Dallas, and suggesting some studies be done on the hypothalamus.
He's the one I mentioned to someone later in Houston who knows lots about environmental medicine, and he told me that guy is like "the Micheal Debakey of environmental medicine."
He was the one who later mentioned in his lecture about finding that with 5 or so food sensitivities, he always found chemical allergies as well in his patients.
By the way, my friend seems to be doing fine on her calcium as well, but still has "IBS." She told me that her sister has a wheat allergy. I wonder what kind of immune reaction the sister has to it. Perhaps she's really a celiac, and just refers to it as a wheat allergy. Friend told me her sister uses rice and other substitute flours, so this makes me suspicious. I wish she'd at least TRY the diet. They have retired to the country now, and have a wonderful garden. Her husband is working toward becoming a master gardener through the extention program.
They may be eating a pretty paleo diet without realizing it, but it's not likely to be completely free of gluten if she's not aware that's a possible problem for her.
To be continued. Thanks for asking. Enjoyed everyone's comments! Yours, Luce
I'd never had the parathyroids checked before the thyroid glands were removed that I know of, but the endo checked all that after the results of the bone scan. After that, he checked the urine for the bone turnover stuff, and the latter was fine.
Incidentally, my phosphate level was elevated also, which I understand goes with this condition -- another reason not to drink most carbonated drinks.
I was being good and taking the calcium and minerals as well as lots of Vit D when these tests were done, but since then, have just gotten off course quite a bit.
I iguess that's why I'm having to use calicum from my bones instead. Dumb I know.
Almost time for the repeat bone scan but I'm going to try to get myself up to spead for a long while before retaking the bone scan, but regardless of what it is next, don't think I want to start medication just yet for the bone loss.
I did have the so-called "autotransplant" for the parathyroids when my thyroids were removed, but I don't believe the hypoparathyroidism is caused from damage caused by the surgery, particularly since this ENT is very particular and does these surgeries all the time.
I suspect that since my antibodies on Dr. Fine's tests were up, showing I was forming antibodies to the small bowel tissue, that I had this crossover with the anti-endomesial antibody attacking the parathyroid as well.
I'll have to find that lab report someday, and post it one of these days. At first, I thought there was some kind of suppression going on due to all the supplementation I was on at the time.
I don't think I have obvious symptoms, other than bone loss on the scans, but that would happen if the bod wasn't able to get enough calcium from the bones, right" That's at the point at which the parathyroids are completely not functioning, right? I suppose they eventually could just get overworked having to produce so much hormone, trying to get the bones to give up so much calcium.
It's kind of scary waiting to see what happens when the parathyroids go out, but then, if I'm so concerned about it, why don't I ever want to take the supplements! I think I get enough sun for the vitamin D on some days, at least, but then, it's getting later in the year, and we've had a few clouds, and that stuff the experts call rain alot lately, unlike our kinsman in the rest of the state.
I have a friend I know has the same condition we have, and she had her parathyroid die a few years after having the thyroids out. After that, she had some kind of brain tumor removed -- supposed to have been the best of the family of tumors it belonged to, at least. I don't know the name of it, however.
Would you think drinking that carbonated mineral water in the glass bottles, a little every day, would provide the necessary minerals, besides the calcium?
I notice that the soup stocks you see in regular stores that seem to be gf (haven't checked yet, however) aren't made with bones.
I thought that was essential to making soup stock, so why do you think these products aren't made with it?
Do you ever make your own stock, and if so, do you make it with bones?
Refresh our memories on what happened with your dog when the parathyroid went out, please? I want to know what I'm in for, at least.
Wow, I need to find that lab sheet, and rethink those results before posting on this again.
Doc did say definitely NOT to take ANY MORE calcium than I was taking at the time as that could cause worse problems. He said that part I was doing exactly right at that time.
Know what, now I'm wishing that I'd ordered a repeat of that anti-small bowel tissue antibody test. Figure if the diet has brought that back to normal, then at least I wouldn't be contributing to my parathyroid's problems. As I recall, however, PTH was pretty low.
Polly, I've always suspected the hypothalmus is somehow involved in all this. I was amazed to hear the environmental doc talking with some of the other speakers around the dinner table one night in Dallas, and suggesting some studies be done on the hypothalamus.
He's the one I mentioned to someone later in Houston who knows lots about environmental medicine, and he told me that guy is like "the Micheal Debakey of environmental medicine."
He was the one who later mentioned in his lecture about finding that with 5 or so food sensitivities, he always found chemical allergies as well in his patients.
By the way, my friend seems to be doing fine on her calcium as well, but still has "IBS." She told me that her sister has a wheat allergy. I wonder what kind of immune reaction the sister has to it. Perhaps she's really a celiac, and just refers to it as a wheat allergy. Friend told me her sister uses rice and other substitute flours, so this makes me suspicious. I wish she'd at least TRY the diet. They have retired to the country now, and have a wonderful garden. Her husband is working toward becoming a master gardener through the extention program.
They may be eating a pretty paleo diet without realizing it, but it's not likely to be completely free of gluten if she's not aware that's a possible problem for her.
To be continued. Thanks for asking. Enjoyed everyone's comments! Yours, Luce
Luce,
This is just a WAEG, but one of the reasons why bones are not being used to make commercial soup stock could be because of the fallout from Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, (BSE, or mad cow disease). In fact, it's now illegal to add bone meal to livestock feed, (particularly any feed targeted to BSE susceptable species), so it may well be illegal to feed it to humans, also, (though I don't know for a fact that it is outlawed for human use).
As you are problably aware, those famous prions connected with BSE can not only be found in brain tissue, but in bone marrow, as well.
Tex
P S If you can't find your report from Enerolab, they will email you a copy, if you ask them to.
This is just a WAEG, but one of the reasons why bones are not being used to make commercial soup stock could be because of the fallout from Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, (BSE, or mad cow disease). In fact, it's now illegal to add bone meal to livestock feed, (particularly any feed targeted to BSE susceptable species), so it may well be illegal to feed it to humans, also, (though I don't know for a fact that it is outlawed for human use).
As you are problably aware, those famous prions connected with BSE can not only be found in brain tissue, but in bone marrow, as well.
Tex
P S If you can't find your report from Enerolab, they will email you a copy, if you ask them to.
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi Wayne,
You know, I would never have thought of the Mad Cow aspect of it! You may well be onto something, but what of the chicken stocks? Wouldn't they be ok with chicken bones? Sure would be healthier, but perhaps since it's processed, there's more danger with chicken as well. Sure would be an easy way to get calcium in for those of us who cook at home all the time.
Oh, and that was confusing, the way I said that about finding the lab results -- was just referring to the blood work where the parathyroid hormone, Vit Ds, and other bone stuff was checked.
Yours, Luce
You know, I would never have thought of the Mad Cow aspect of it! You may well be onto something, but what of the chicken stocks? Wouldn't they be ok with chicken bones? Sure would be healthier, but perhaps since it's processed, there's more danger with chicken as well. Sure would be an easy way to get calcium in for those of us who cook at home all the time.
Oh, and that was confusing, the way I said that about finding the lab results -- was just referring to the blood work where the parathyroid hormone, Vit Ds, and other bone stuff was checked.
Yours, Luce
Mornin'!
Luce, here is how my dog showed symptoms of hypoparathyroidism. For several weeks he would stop walking suddenly, sit, and begin frantically licking the bottoms of his feet - all 4. Once or twice on a walk he sat/lay down, and refused to move for a few minutes.....then was just fine and continued the walk. He was also frantically rubbing his face with his front paws.
I took him to our vet, who thought it might be an allergy of some kind and suggested steroids. But within a day or two, Rusty had a full-blown attack of tetany. He fell on the floor and had unusual posturing of his paws/digits. It looked like a seizure but I did note that he didn't lose consciousness or urinate/defecate like can happen with seizures. We went back to the local vet, who started an IV and sent us to the Animal E.R. since it was 8 PM at night.
Luckily, the vet we saw in the E.R. had done a paper on hypoparathyroidiism in vet school, so she made the diagnisis immediately. The main clue for her was the licking/rubbing. Apparently they think that low calcium causes neurological pain/tingling of the face and extremities, and this is what Rusty was responding to. Anyway, the STAT calcium was indeed low! Weren't we lucky to have that vet?
Interesting about the hypothalamus.
No I haven't used bones to make stock. I wonder if Matthew does.
Love,
Polly
Luce, here is how my dog showed symptoms of hypoparathyroidism. For several weeks he would stop walking suddenly, sit, and begin frantically licking the bottoms of his feet - all 4. Once or twice on a walk he sat/lay down, and refused to move for a few minutes.....then was just fine and continued the walk. He was also frantically rubbing his face with his front paws.
I took him to our vet, who thought it might be an allergy of some kind and suggested steroids. But within a day or two, Rusty had a full-blown attack of tetany. He fell on the floor and had unusual posturing of his paws/digits. It looked like a seizure but I did note that he didn't lose consciousness or urinate/defecate like can happen with seizures. We went back to the local vet, who started an IV and sent us to the Animal E.R. since it was 8 PM at night.
Luckily, the vet we saw in the E.R. had done a paper on hypoparathyroidiism in vet school, so she made the diagnisis immediately. The main clue for her was the licking/rubbing. Apparently they think that low calcium causes neurological pain/tingling of the face and extremities, and this is what Rusty was responding to. Anyway, the STAT calcium was indeed low! Weren't we lucky to have that vet?
Interesting about the hypothalamus.
No I haven't used bones to make stock. I wonder if Matthew does.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
This brings to mind some sensations I used to occasionally feel back when I was still reacting, (before my gut began to heal). I would be standing on a cool ceramic surface, (such as a bathtub or tile surface), and when warm water would cover my feet, the soles of my feet would suddenly feel as though I were standing on a burning hot surface. Sometimes it would be only one foot, and sometimes both.
After a few minutes it would go away, but for a while, I would find myself alternating standing on first one foot, and then the other, in order to prevent the sensation of being burned. IOW, when I would lift my foot off the surface, the burning sensation would slowly fade away, and when I would put weight on it again, the burning sensation would resume. The first time or two that it happened, I had to actually feel of the surface with my hand, to verify that it was not burning hot.
As my gut healed, it stopped happening, and I forgot about it. Now, I wonder if it might have been connected with a transient hypoparathyroid problem, (or something else that caused a temporary deficiency of calcium in the blood).
Tex
After a few minutes it would go away, but for a while, I would find myself alternating standing on first one foot, and then the other, in order to prevent the sensation of being burned. IOW, when I would lift my foot off the surface, the burning sensation would slowly fade away, and when I would put weight on it again, the burning sensation would resume. The first time or two that it happened, I had to actually feel of the surface with my hand, to verify that it was not burning hot.
As my gut healed, it stopped happening, and I forgot about it. Now, I wonder if it might have been connected with a transient hypoparathyroid problem, (or something else that caused a temporary deficiency of calcium in the blood).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
-
kate_ce1995
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 1321
- Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 5:53 pm
- Location: Vermont
Polly,
So glad to hear Rusty continues to thrive! Tigger just went to the vet and she commented on how nice his coat was and asked what I fed him. I said, just Cat Chow (Purina cat chow has a very low or no ash content that many cats react to), and of course the abundance of field mice, squirrels etc. that he catches outside. She was impressed! I bet he is getting a more normal nutrient base for himself by being a hunter.
As a side note, a friend of mine had a cat who loved cantalope and pumpkin. After she went grocery shopping she had to guard those items while she put groceries away or he'd eat the darn things.
Katy
So glad to hear Rusty continues to thrive! Tigger just went to the vet and she commented on how nice his coat was and asked what I fed him. I said, just Cat Chow (Purina cat chow has a very low or no ash content that many cats react to), and of course the abundance of field mice, squirrels etc. that he catches outside. She was impressed! I bet he is getting a more normal nutrient base for himself by being a hunter.
As a side note, a friend of mine had a cat who loved cantalope and pumpkin. After she went grocery shopping she had to guard those items while she put groceries away or he'd eat the darn things.
Katy
Tex, that does sound like some kind of neuropathy, or at least a transient neuralgia. Since it occurred when you were still sick, I'll bet it was due to some kind of mineral/vitamin deficiency because of the malabsorption. Deficiencies of B vitamins (and others) can cause neuropathy as well as calcium.
Katy, Tigger is pretty much paleo too! LOL! I didn't know that some cats like veggies/fruits......interesting.
Love,
Polly
Katy, Tigger is pretty much paleo too! LOL! I didn't know that some cats like veggies/fruits......interesting.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
-
kate_ce1995
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 1321
- Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 5:53 pm
- Location: Vermont
Heck Polly, I had a cat eat onions once (I hadn't cooked them enough and so they were on the plate when I set it down). Now Cocoa was a wee bit on the weird side, but raw onions? I couldn't figure that out. Plus the cats we had when I was a kid would have digestive issues in the winter and mom assumed it was because of the lack of grass so we cut either green beans or frozen spinach into their cat food. They loved it.
Katy
Katy
I've noticed that some of my cats seem to relish leftover green beans or broccoli, and most of them love what's left of a baked potato. I've never offered them any onions, though. LOL.
Tes
Tes
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.